Page 107 Discussion

[Sweforce]

Who are we kidding, unless Humaniti changed a lot, then the choice between blue space amazon warrior elves and overgrown bugs would be a no-brainer for the majority of the population. Loroi would have to feed on babies or something to sway the public opinion in favor of Umiak.

Add to this that our immunity to the loroi psychic abilities pretty much nullify the Umiaks main argument. Sure telekinesis and such still work but so do guns. An argument against firearms in a magic heavy fantasy world is that why spend years or even decades training combat mages if a grunt with a few hours training can simply shoot the mage? In reality, this is how the knight died out.

[projekcja]

Humanity has managed to learn a whole Loroi-trade-language from the Orgus, which includes a number system, but it doesn't include a unit of measurement for time and distance? I find that really hard to swallow. The whole purpose of a trade language, facilitating trade, is closely linked to having a common method of measuring things like time. The difficulty of establishing, conveying and propagating a language is so much harder than establishing a standard set of units, that I just cant see how common units are not already there.

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

[dragoongfa]

Humanity has managed to learn a whole Loroi-trade-language from the Orgus, which includes a number system, but it doesn't include a unit of measurement for time and distance? I find that really hard to swallow. The whole purpose of a trade language, facilitating trade, is closely linked to having a common method of measuring things like time. The difficulty of establishing, conveying and propagating a language is so much harder than establishing a standard set of units, that I just cant see how common units are not already there.

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

The problem is that the Loroi Union (Loroi + Union members) probably uses Loroi units of measurement almost exclusively and all of their neighbors quickly learn them in turn since everyone in the Union knows them. The Orgus being at the other side of the Umiak space never learned about the Loroi units of measurement and their 'localized trade' must have had other units of measurement in turn.

[icekatze]

hi hi

The Trade language is an ancient language, and so it is understandable that regional variations may have developed over the years.

Also, after thinking about Tempo's behavior a little, I wonder if there are some places in Loroi culture where it is actually considered more honest to purposefully imply things without directly saying them. If spoken words are distrustful, could unspoken implications seem more trustworthy?

[Zakharra]

icekatze mentioned something that I a wondering about now; what does Fireblade feel about Alex wearing her shoes? Assuming he isn't wearing a pair just the same size by now.

[Razor One]

icekatze mentioned something that I a wondering about now; what does Fireblade feel about Alex wearing her shoes? Assuming he isn't wearing a pair just the same size by now.

"Those were my favourite pair of shoes..."

[GeoModder]

Pretty sure Alex' been issued a pair of shoes from shipboard storage, not from Fireblade's cabin.

[Razor One]

On Stillstorm's vessel, all Loroi were equal and shared all their resources with all the other Loroi equally in this time of war.

But all that served on the Tempest knew that one Loroi was, above all, more equal than all the others. None would touch her shoes and be allowed to live. It was the exception that all accepted. Few if any wished to be splattered across three halls, or talked to death in her sleep by the one called Fireblade.

And then, one fateful day, the Tempest received a grim reminder of why nobody, nobody, was allowed to touch Fireblade's shoes.

The day the Human came.

The day of the Tempest Prank War...

[Arioch]

Humanity has managed to learn a whole Loroi-trade-language from the Orgus, which includes a number system, but it doesn't include a unit of measurement for time and distance? I find that really hard to swallow. The whole purpose of a trade language, facilitating trade, is closely linked to having a common method of measuring things like time. The difficulty of establishing, conveying and propagating a language is so much harder than establishing a standard set of units, that I just cant see how common units are not already there.

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

It's about readability. It's okay to make the reader memorize a few foreign units when they're close analogues of our units (such as "microns" and "centons" in Battlestar Galactica), but when you get to the larger units such as a kilometer or year, it's not plausible that the Loroi equivalents are going to be even close in value to ours, and so you put the reader in a position of having to do conversions. When you have a character like Beryl who can keep this stuff in her head, it makes more sense to let her do the conversions and present values that Alex (and the reader) can readily understand.

As to the issue of Trade having units: it does, but Alex was taught a different dialect by a civilization that never met the Loroi. Some of the Periphery Trade units are completely different (the "solon" doesn't exist in that dialect), and some that have the same name (such as the "year" analogue) have different values.

[Twinkee]

In regards to "Input! More input!"... My thoughts went there too, then... here, then to... NSFW "I didn't think anyone used 3 1/2" floppies anymore"-ClayB

In regards to Earth's location... I would definitely be inclined to withhold any critical information including homeworld coordinates. My observations of his mission so far do not make for a picnic with tea... He's been been blown up, picked up, tortured and imprisoned. Later they gave him shoes. Shortly after that he was finally told that all his crewmates are dead. However most significantly I feel is that since Tempo officially recognised him as a diplomat he's still been hosteled in the guest suite (the dungeons) oh and fed. Personally I'd think diplomatic courtesies might have included a chair or a means of taking notes... Oh wait they did give him a/his pen. After a week of lousy food, severe travel sickness, no human contact and diplomatic overtures of a pen... I'd be highly motivated to make that relay rendezvous as well. I'm with Alex on this... and to be honest still sees Bad Things in store for him and I certainly wouldn't be in a hurry to tell the Loroi where to find more of my friends, family or proverbial worst enemy.

In regards to units of time and distance... I imagine that the trade language the Orgus could teach us may well have had words and meanings for Umiak hierarch units (a neighboring potential trade partner) but not necessarily Loroi imperial units found on the other side of what turned out to be a hostile power. Whatever the units they did have would be obscure fractions of human metric units and if she's interested in more input, they might lead towards a truly mediocre conversation with Beryl about the merits of Whitworth spanners.

[fredgiblet]

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I can imagine an anthropologist would be super excited to find a previously undiscovered society of humans living in some remote corner of the world, even when there are already many known human cultures to study. Beryl is learning things that no Loroi has ever known before, so I could see the appeal.

[dragoongfa]

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.

If the humans have any brain cells left they will all switch to duo decimal and let the computers handle out the rest. From an arithmetics point of view both the octal and the decimal are inferior to the duodecimal.

But then again, the US will still be using Imperial so that's certainly an obstacle.

[alpha]

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.

If the humans have any brain cells left they will all switch to duo decimal and let the computers handle out the rest. From an arithmetics point of view both the octal and the decimal are inferior to the duodecimal.

But then again, the US will still be using Imperial so that's certainly an obstacle.

The US will switch... once a socialist independent political candidate wins two presidential elections by a landslide, and people stop being irrational and/or stupid.

[peragrin]

The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first. So do colleges. National and state standards have to be listed in both. Basically it is old people who don't want to switch. You can't force those people, so you teach young people metric over and over again, make sure all labels have both and by the time you suggest switching publicly in another 20 years there won't be enough old people that don't know mettric for it to matter.

if you need proof go look at your gallon of milk, or any label. everything has dual labels so they can be sold everywhere. Businesses are cheap if they think they can save money by switching to metric by printing less on labels they will bur our politicians to do just that.

[Siber]

For weights you might be on to something, but for distances and temp? I don't see that process underway at all.

[Absalom]

The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.

BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.

Over a hundred years from now? The US might be using a purely-decimal derivative of Imperial instead of one of the traditional Imperial systems. After all, the Metric system was invented by the French. I'd personally suggest something based on the foot, since, you know, it's in the realm of the length of the average human foot.

The USA has switched at least unofficially.

Actually, I believe that the switch was official (back in the 50s, 60s, something like that). The unofficial switch was the one that didn't happen.

For weights you might be on to something, but for distances and temp? I don't see that process underway at all.

Supposedly the British still use miles. Real-world units and engineering-units don't intrinsically need to be the same thing, particularly since Real-world units are primarily colloquial in use, not precise. The Fahrenheit scale is similar: Celsius has a more sensible footing from a technical perspective (Kelvin honestly beats it, but still), but the Fahrenheit scale matches better to human comfort, thus more sensible for the 7-day forecast.

[fredgiblet]

The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.

When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.

[Absalom]

The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.

When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.

Text book makers set the majority of the standard, and then just tweak their books to suit the individual PTA (or school board, or...). Either it got left out of your books, or your teacher didn't feel it to be important and thus skipped it.

I was taught a little metric, and I'm about the same age as you.

[alpha]

The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.

When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.

I'm a bit younger and I remember 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade being filled with the metric system. Then, I changed schools.

In high school, metric units were used in science for "physics" and for chemistry, and later, for actual physics. They were used mostly because of the easier calculations.

For example, Charles' Law and Guy-Lussac's Law are a lot harder to use when use

SpoilerShow

Imperial

American units. We're unique! In our backwardness...