Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[dragoongfa]

I think that you have misunderstood the implications; no one is going to harm an opposition Loroi for what she preaches. The opposition may not get stuff done unless the established government goes with it but they will not be harmed unless they get violent themselves.
That's the way modern democracies work when you think about it, as long as a party controls the parliament/congress/senate/whatever then the opposition can't do shit in the vast majority of cases. Only civil disobedience and that's up to a point, filibusters and organized strikes being the only legal avenues of active opposition to the government. Once the opposition does something violent they are immediately branded as a terrorist organization.
The main difference between the Loroi and modern democracies is that the Loroi don't have elections, they are in essence an military oligarchy and the loud opposition itself is part of that oligarchy.

[Arioch]

Sounds like a very politically correct way of saying that there is no meaningful opposition. You are "expected" to voice your opinion, and the male philosopher castes will make certain that you do (I forget which one it was, who's task was to telepathically monitor the population's thoughts and report dissent, essentially fighting "thought crime"), but that means nothing, because you are still expected to comply to your superiors or the government. Else you are committing essentially insubordination or treason, resulting in the death sentence or transfer to the "raider squadrons" where the Umiak will end you. Death sentence by proxy, so to say.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "opposition." Even in democratic systems, the minority "opposition" party is not allowed to disregard or disobey the laws or rulings of the majority government. Democracy doesn't mean everyone gets to do anything they want. In most democratic systems, the only power that the minority party has is to publicly criticize things they disagree with. It's not an insignificant political tool, which is why it's forbidden in most authoritarian systems.

Sounds very similar to how the Soviet Union worked. If you were a civilian and dared to as much as speak aloud your objections about the System, even to your neighbors or "friends", most likely you would soon get a nighttime ride in a black sedan. Back then you could be sure that every other person was a KGB informant, and even children at school were encouraged to spy on and report their parents to the school's friendly People's Commissar. During Stalin's time you would either get shot on the spot or just disappear (driven into a forest and shot or sent to a gulag in Siberia if you were lucky).

I'm not suggesting that the Loroi system isn't repressive -- it is; it's a military dictatorship -- but there is a significant difference between voicing opposition and actually committing acts of treason. In the Soviet Union, the two were treated the same, but not even the most liberal democracy will tolerate literal acts of treason (at least, if it wants to survive more than six months). Rule of law is just as important as freedom of speech in a democracy.

[entity2636]

@Dragoongfa - I think you are missing something. The Loroi Empire is NOT a democracy nor a monarchy, they are a military dictatorship. You can think what you want, say what you want, but "big sister" with the help of the Nedatan will be listening. They MAY want to talk to you and you will be expected to do what you are told by your CO or caste leader anyway. Arioch himself said that

Members voice objection to policies which they disagree with, but then are expected to support whatever decisions are made. Opposition is considered a civic duty, and it is also a well-respected act of courage (because when the inevitable occasional internal conflict arises, your opponents know who you are, and while they respect your courage that doesn't mean they won't kill you). Stillstorm is a supporter of the republican movement, which is part of the reason why she is where she is.

Greywind was a vocal opponent of the policies of the previous emperor before she herself acceded to the position, and this is an example of how change can come to a system like this: if you voice disagreement to a policy and that policy fails, others may be more likely to listen to you in the future. (But that doesn't mean you won't have to bump off some opponents at some point along the road.)

Granted, there is no concrete proof that the Loroi Empire actively and aggressively combat dissent or opposition, but it has been stated multiple times, that opposing the current regime's course and doctrine or questioning a decision will at best be ignored or your superior will pull rank on you, and at worst get you in trouble - you'll be demoted or, depending on rank and "importance", promoted out of the way, or given a dangerous mission that will get you killed sooner or later. You will be officially remembered as a hero, they might even name a frigate after you, but you will be dead and everyone will know why.

[entity2636]

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "opposition." Even in democratic systems, the minority "opposition" party is not allowed to disregard or disobey the laws or rulings of the majority government. Democracy doesn't mean everyone gets to do anything they want. In most democratic systems, the only power that the minority party has is to publicly criticize things they disagree with. It's not an insignificant political tool, which is why it's forbidden in most authoritarian systems.

I'm not talking about the "opposition" party disregarding or disobeying the laws or rulings of the government, rather, is there a meaningful opposition and can they actually do something other than being just unhappy with the position's policy. And not getting on the emperor's sh!t list and sent to the front for speaking out.

Also, I'm talking a bit from my own perspective and am used to a multi-party government, not just two parties as in the USA. There's the majority party in the government that won the elections and a coalition of everyone else who didn't - the opposition. Number of seats in the parliament are distributed depending on the proportion of the winning party vs. the coalition (usually ends up about half in half). When a law needs to be passed or a decision made, the position and coalition debate and vote on it.

[dragoongfa]

The Loroi themselves are organized into a warrior caste system and the government itself is comprised from senior member from ALL warrior castes, i.e. the government is not monolithic with a singular focus and established party line. The Loroi are also extremely competitive, they value honesty and are extremely politicized to the point of being described as Byzantine in their workings.
With all of the above in mind the Loroi are bound to have a multitude of political factions racing for dominance; in such a case the Emperor doesn't govern and dictate policies as much as she is juggling everyone who has some leverage.
An Emperor who begins to bump off dissent in such an environment is an Emperor who is bound to be very short lived.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Except again, we have wooden artifacts that old. Hell as an extreme example food from both the civil war and egyptian tombs is occasionally still edible.

There's a few things going on in these two sentences. Wood is not the same thing as paper, paper is processed, paper has an incredibly high surface area to react with air, and even acid free paper becomes more acidic as cellulose breaks down. The Schöningen Speers are not a half million years old, and they were found warped and broken by geological pressure in spite of being preserved about as ideally as possible. The civil war and the egyptian tombs are orders of magnitude more recent than a half million years, they're not even in the same ballpark, and the only food that was recoverable in the tombs was almost entirely a highly acidic metabolic poison for anaerobic life inside of an airtight container and a liquid form that does not require a specific structure to be useful, which even if it breaks down chemically, is still just carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen. It is possible for things that are not in their original state to remain edible. If you want a more extreme example, there are frozen mammoths in Siberia that people have been digging up and eating, but again, not paper thin. It would be challenging to find a place to freeze paper naturally that didn't also include water.

Being inside of an airtight seal and a tomb are among the conditions for preservation that I mentioned, and I think that still applies.

[Absalom]

I'm not sure we have the same definition of "opposition." Even in democratic systems, the minority "opposition" party is not allowed to disregard or disobey the laws or rulings of the majority government. Democracy doesn't mean everyone gets to do anything they want. In most democratic systems, the only power that the minority party has is to publicly criticize things they disagree with. It's not an insignificant political tool, which is why it's forbidden in most authoritarian systems.

I'm not talking about the "opposition" party disregarding or disobeying the laws or rulings of the government, rather, is there a meaningful opposition and can they actually do something other than being just unhappy with the position's policy. And not getting on the emperor's sh!t list and sent to the front for speaking out.

Also, I'm talking a bit from my own perspective and am used to a multi-party government, not just two parties as in the USA. There's the majority party in the government that won the elections and a coalition of everyone else who didn't - the opposition. Number of seats in the parliament are distributed depending on the proportion of the winning party vs. the coalition (usually ends up about half in half). When a law needs to be passed or a decision made, the position and coalition debate and vote on it.

Actually, there's effectively less difference between the US system and the average Parliamentary system than might be expected. The US has never had just two political movements, the only reason why it seems otherwise is because traditionally major alliances of these factions have been started, and more commonly changed than ended. If you analyze the inner workings of the US Republican or Democrat parties, you find that they both are divided into factions along largely geographic lines, that the factions from different parties but the same geographic area have themes of similarity between each other, and that when a new political party forms (e.g. the Republican party) it is commonly because a constituent faction became dissatisfied with the alliance they were part of (e.g. the Whig party).

tl;dr: the US isn't a two-faction country, it just looks that way because the coalitions are themselves formalized organizations, and thus rarely end.

With that said, I have a scenario for you: what if there is no Loroi faction strong enough to actually rule the Union, so all of them have to form coalitions to even acquire power in the first place?

[entity2636]

With that said, I have a scenario for you: what if there is no Loroi faction strong enough to actually rule the Union, so all of them have to form coalitions to even acquire power in the first place?

The scenario would only apply if the Emperor and Consuls were all dead, got fed up and resigned (lol), or a coup was being prepared. Otherwise there is no actual power to be acquired because every decision or policy has to be approved by both of the Consuls, one of whom is the Emperor's right hand woman, the other - an alien who is affiliated with the current regime or else would not get elected. I can't imagine said group to be able to push any of their own agendas

As far as I understood how the Loroi government is put together, in a nutshell - on top is the Emperor, below are two Consuls - one is chosen by the Emperor and is by definition a Loroi Torrai of the rank of, I would imagine, at least Vice Admiral and a close personal "friend" of the Emperor; the other - an elected Consul from the Union Assembly (Parliament, which consists, not surprisingly, of a majority Loroi Torrai Admirals with the rest being MPs form Union member worlds), who is an alien. To be elected this way you would need to be very pro-Loroi and pro-military. Both consuls have veto rights on the Parliament and the Emperor, consequently, has veto rights on the Consuls.

If there are any factions in the Loroi government, they can be only "affiliated" with the Navy (Soroin), Airforce (Tenoin), Marine Corps (Teidar) or Intelligence (Mizol) - those are the castes (or service branches) that can become Command (Torrai) and get into the government. And given the caste hierarchy, then Soroin < Tenoin < Teidar < Mizol (a Mizol that got promoted to Admiral and thus became a Torrai, outranks a Tenoin that got promoted to Admiral and also became a Torrai) or am I totally wrong here?

Either way, if the Admirals can't agree on something, the one who originated from a more important caste pulls rank. Or either of the Consuls make the decision the Emperor can then either agree with or veto.

For a particular group of Admirals to acquire power would mean putting their own Emperor on the throne, or at least have one of them chosen by the current Emperor into the Consuls.

This pretty much is what happened when the previous emperor got killed - the Mizols managed to put one of their own on the throne which almost immediately caused a coup attempt that could have caused a civil war and made the Loroi easy pickings for the Umiak. Because, if there is anything the Loroi love more than fighting wars with other species is fighting civil wars among themselves.

Anyone, please do feel free to correct me if I was wrong somewhere as I'm rather new to this setting.

[dragoongfa]

You forgot the Diadem which is arguably the most important part of all. The Diadem is a high council that elects the emperor among its members, advises her and is theoretically able to dethrone said emperor (never done peacefully so far). All warrior castes are one way or the other represented in the diadem and there are more warrior castes than the Soroin, Tenoin, Teidar and Mizol which have been shown to have some clout. The Listel, the Doranzer and the Gallen are also warrior castes that have been shown participating in the war but these are far from all the castes.
Fully half of the Loroi population is in the 'warrior castes' even if their functions within Loroi society aren't exactly geared towards war fighting. The warrior castes are the ones who are running the government apparatus with the civilians being intentionally sidelined as 'failed warriors'.

EDIT: Also the Torrai isn't exactly a unified caste, they are the 'leadership' caste but its members are drawn from the rest of the warrior castes and as far as I understand the ascendants maintain their ties with the caste from which they came from. The Torrai are also split in at least two branches, the executive/front line leaders and the supporting staff. The Soroin and Tenoin go into the executive branch while the Mizol and Teidar go into the supporting staff branch.

Greywind, the current Emperor, came from the Mizol and as such she wasn't a front-line officer. She was elected into the throne through political maneuvering and because she was a loud opponent of the previous Emperor and pointed out her fuck ups before they blew on the Loroi's collective face. The attempted and failed coup against her was from a hardcore traditionalist faction that wanted for the Emperor to be a front-line officer,

[entity2636]

I didn't forget the Diadem council, rather I left it out intentionally when I wrote this because I couldn't find how it is made up and how it fits in the government structure. For all I know, it might be a temporary thing, like the Papal Conclave, made up of top ranking Fleet Admirals who then choose the next Emperor from among them. Arioch's article I got the government structure from doesn't mention the Diadem so I gather it is dissolved after the Emperor is chosen or called in when a new Emperor must be found.

Also, from what I read in the Insider and how I understood it, only Command branch (Torrai) can be in the "government" and only Soroin, Tenoin, Teidar and Mizol can change their "service branch" to Command. Support castes like Science officers (Listel), Medics (Doranzer) and Engineering (Gallen) have no path to command and thus no saying in the Admiralty or government.

[dragoongfa]

Governments of all kinds are bound to have ministries of Health, Infrastructure and Education that are staffed by people who know how to run them. For the Loroi to not have the equivalent of them is ridiculous to even consider.

There is bound to be a Doranzer Surgeon General who is the chief adviser/minister of Health. There is bound to be a Gallen Engineer general responsible for all the infrastructure and there is bound to be a Listel Master/Chief Archivist to hold all of the top secret knowledge that the heads of the government may need. Now if these chiefs don't ascend to Torrai before getting these positions doesn't mean that they aren't part of the government or that their castes don't get a say in how the government runs.

[Hālian]

If I recall correctly, it's the loroi analogue to the UK's Privy Council.

[Victor_D]

BTW Arioch (sorry if this was discussed before), but do Loroi have the concept of a "dissident"? As in a person who opposes the ruling regime and wishes to change it, for example civilians or even warriors opposing the caste system and the "leading role" of the Torrai caste, these sort of things. How do the Loroi treat them? (Or rather used to treat them before the war; I understand that in wartime, any subversive activities will likely be punished harshly). Do they mostly let them prattle on, knowing that they are completely marginal and nobody listens to them, or do they actively suppress dissent, in the way totalitarian/authoritarian regimes do here on Earth?

It depends on how one expresses one's opposition. One the one hand, Loroi society is one that values honesty and having the courage of one's own convictions; if a person disagrees with something, she is expected to say so. On the other hand, Loroi society has rigid customs and a clear hierarchy of authority; once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.

There is open debate and "loyal opposition" parties in Loroi political life. The chief opposition party is the Loroi Axis, which is essentially a republican faction that desires to reduce the power of the imperial central government in favor of regional assemblies. Members voice objection to policies which they disagree with, but then are expected to support whatever decisions are made. Opposition is considered a civic duty, and it is also a well-respected act of courage (because when the inevitable occasional internal conflict arises, your opponents know who you are, and while they respect your courage that doesn't mean they won't kill you). Stillstorm is a supporter of the republican movement, which is part of the reason why she is where she is.

Greywind was a vocal opponent of the policies of the previous emperor before she herself acceded to the position, and this is an example of how change can come to a system like this: if you voice disagreement to a policy and that policy fails, others may be more likely to listen to you in the future. (But that doesn't mean you won't have to bump off some opponents at some point along the road.)

So it appears that only the warrior castes engage in what we could call national politics. Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals, so I guess prisons/re-education camps/exile to marginal colonies far away from anything important...? Or are the Loroi closer to the USSR/Nazi Germany in dealing with dissidents (death either by 'bullet' or hard labour)? Is there any significant dissent among the civilians who are discontent with being effectively disenfranchised "proles" (in the 1984 meaning of that word)?

[Siber]

Victor_D, where are you getting "Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals"? From how I've read Arioch's statements in this thread, vocal dissent is tolerated, disobedience isn't, especially in the military castes. You can say a policy is dumb or wrong, but if you're assigned to carry it out, you've got to do it or be punished. That doesn't seem exceptionally repressive to me. Nor does it sound like civilians are banned from voicing opinions on the way of things, I would guess that rather they'd just have trouble finding anyone who will listen that has the power to change things. If you did have large political movements among civilians in opposition to the current ruler or system of government then I would imagine things could and would get quite a bit uglier, but that doesn't sound to be the status quo at present.

I do want to be clear I don't think the Loroi government is nice and cuddly, as Arioch stated it's a military dictatorship, it sounds like succession usually involves at least the threat of violence, and civilians are openly second-class citizens. It'd not be high on my places to live. But there's a broad spectrum between a basic military dictatorship and Stazi or KGB style deathgrip on a populace, and jumping to the extreme end of that spectrum immediately seems very unwarranted

[Arioch]

So it appears that only the warrior castes engage in what we could call national politics. Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals, so I guess prisons/re-education camps/exile to marginal colonies far away from anything important...? Or are the Loroi closer to the USSR/Nazi Germany in dealing with dissidents (death either by 'bullet' or hard labour)? Is there any significant dissent among the civilians who are discontent with being effectively disenfranchised "proles" (in the 1984 meaning of that word)?

It is true that civilians have no voice in the national government, since it is exclusively military... but it's also true that the rank and file warrior doesn't have any voice in the national government either, since it's not a democracy. Civilian participation in local affairs varies according to time and location; many settlements have town councils or chambers of commerce in which civilians participate, though the influence of some of these organizations was curtailed in the crackdown after the attempted coup in 2140. And, of course, civilians have authority within their own guilds and companies.

As Siber mentioned, "dissent" (the expression or holding of opinions at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially held) is not illegal and is tolerated. As a practical matter in a telepathic society in which truth is almost unavoidable, trying to restrict speech would be essentially trying to restrict thought, which I don't really think is practically possible outside the most extreme Orwellian thought experiments. Civilians are free to voice dissent, and they are free to work towards change as long as they do so within the framework of the law. However, since boycotts or work stoppages would be illegal (especially in time of war), it is true that they don't have many legal options to promote change.

[Victor_D]

Victor_D, where are you getting "Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals"? From how I've read Arioch's statements in this thread, vocal dissent is tolerated, disobedience isn't, especially in the military castes. You can say a policy is dumb or wrong, but if you're assigned to carry it out, you've got to do it or be punished. That doesn't seem exceptionally repressive to me. Nor does it sound like civilians are banned from voicing opinions on the way of things, I would guess that rather they'd just have trouble finding anyone who will listen that has the power to change things. If you did have large political movements among civilians in opposition to the current ruler or system of government then I would imagine things could and would get quite a bit uglier, but that doesn't sound to be the status quo at present.

I do want to be clear I don't think the Loroi government is nice and cuddly, as Arioch stated it's a military dictatorship, it sounds like succession usually involves at least the threat of violence, and civilians are openly second-class citizens. It'd not be high on my places to live. But there's a broad spectrum between a basic military dictatorship and Stazi or KGB style deathgrip on a populace, and jumping to the extreme end of that spectrum immediately seems very unwarranted

See below. For the record, I am not making any moral stand here or trying to judge the Loroi system of government (it's fiction, why should I). I am merely interested in how they deal with those individuals who are just unwilling to submit to laws/customs/traditions they disagree with.

As Siber mentioned, "dissent" (the expression or holding of opinions at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially held) is not illegal and is tolerated. As a practical matter in a telepathic society in which truth is almost unavoidable, trying to restrict speech would be essentially trying to restrict thought, which I don't really think is practically possible outside the most extreme Orwellian thought experiments. Civilians are free to voice dissent, and they are free to work towards change as long as they do so within the framework of the law. However, since boycotts or work stoppages would be illegal (especially in time of war), it is true that they don't have many legal options to promote change.

I apologise for not making myself sufficiently clear, I guess there is a difference in meaning in English I don't fully appreciate – what I mean is people who not only voice their dissenting opinion, but insist on it, despite being told to let go. As you said:

(...) once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.

I just wonder what specifically happens to these criminals (who in human terms would be called dissidents, prisoners of conscience, political criminals) – are they killed/worked to death/assigned to penal battalions? "Re-educated", possibly using extreme telepathic means? Given long prison sentences (which I assume would be impractical in a society where individuals can live for hundreds of years)? Exiled for life to far-away colonies (something like Australia in the 19th century)? All of the above?

[icekatze]

hi hi

I think the point is that Loroi can't really insist that anyone "let it go." With a few rare exceptions, telepathy conveys what is on someone's mind in a way that is direct, honest, and unvarnished. The best a Loroi seems to be able to do is say something like, "You're not getting your way, and I find you annoying, go somewhere else and bother someone else."

For the Loroi, they've mostly all grown up in a society where this truthfulness is normal and expected. I imagine someone with just an opposing opinion (as in, not acting out harmfully, but just thinking their thoughts.) is like a person who chews with their mouth open, or smells bad. Everyone knows someone like that, and you might not want them around, but they're not going to get locked away. Bullied on the playground, maybe.

[Siber]

Victor, I think the point in your last quoted section is that "you are expected to comply" doesn't mean you are expected to agree. You are told where to march, you can say what you think of that order and say where you think you should march instead, but unless your commanding officer agrees, you still have to march where you're told. You are treated as a criminal if you march somewhere else anyway, or start talking about how you'd like to kill your commanding officer for being so stupid. Most militaries, indeed most organizations, treat that kind of thing the same way broadly speaking.

I suppose the lines can blur if you are ordered to shut up, but given the emphasis on honesty and the fact that Arioch said courage in one's convictions is encouraged, that seems like it's only going to happen if someone is being actively corrosive on morale.

I am not making any moral stand here or trying to judge the Loroi system of government (it's fiction, why should I). I am merely interested in how they deal with those individuals who are just unwilling to submit to laws/customs/traditions they disagree with.

Yeah, I wasn't entirely reacting to anything you'd said so far, just trying to stave off a certain category of distracting tangents from all possible sources, not just you.

[Arioch]

(...) once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.

I just wonder what specifically happens to these criminals (who in human terms would be called dissidents, prisoners of conscience, political criminals) – are they killed/worked to death/assigned to penal battalions? "Re-educated", possibly using extreme telepathic means? Given long prison sentences (which I assume would be impractical in a society where individuals can live for hundreds of years)? Exiled for life to far-away colonies (something like Australia in the 19th century)? All of the above?

It depends on the offense. For civilians it starts with the guild or company that employs the individual, as under Loroi law, organizations are to some extent legally responsible for the actions of their dependents and employees. A person who refused to work or was insubordinate, or who tried to encourage others to do the same, could be punished by the guild with fines or reductions in pay, benefits or privileges, or demotions. Offenders are offered psychological counseling in the cases where a treatable mental disorder may be responsible for the misbehavior. A repeat offender could lose her job and be dismissed from the guild. Someone who committed a serious crime (including criminal conspiracy, treason, advocating the overthrow of the government, etc.) would be handed over to the government criminal justice system.

As you might expect of a military dictatorship, the Loroi can be harsh in how they deal with criminality. Loroi generally do not use long-term incarceration as a punishment. If an offender does not respond to attempts at correction (fines, counseling, removal of privileges, corporal punishment), she will often be eliminated. In a martial society in which even the privileged warrior class must accept that death is often part of their duty, they are not shy about using capital punishment. In ancient times, exile was sometimes used as a punishment (making the offender someone else's problem), but in modern times with global and interstellar governments, that's not really a beneficial option.

There are not a lot of government restrictions on the everyday behavior of civilians, so there are not normally a lot of cases in which civilians get themselves into trouble with the government (unless they are engaged in criminal activity or actively fomenting rebellion, which is not tolerated even in the most liberal of societies).

[Jayngfet]

The idea of a lack of restrictions in a caste system is ridiculous. That's the point of a caste system. The Loroi civilization is a military dictatorship with rigid and all encompassing civic roles. That's how you wrote them.