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Well, the people who preemptively adopted the language of the Franks, i.e. the Romans, certainly weren't bothered by whether the barbarians were offended by Roman customs. If they got cross about it, the Romans were happy to answer in kind and get them about a cross.

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:51 am

I think that the question was more about standard Trade, not the Loroi version. An artificial "lingua franca" should have something like a universal greeting pattern that is as inoffensive to various alien species as possible.

He asked about variations for differences in age, rank, sex, or social class... doesn't sound like he was looking for a universal alien greeting.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:21 pm

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:51 am

I think that the question was more about standard Trade, not the Loroi version. An artificial "lingua franca" should have something like a universal greeting pattern that is as inoffensive to various alien species as possible.

He asked about variations for differences in age, rank, sex, or social class... doesn't sound like he was looking for a universal alien greeting.

Gratefully, I received both.  The "Smile and Wave" greeting is about as universal as one can expect -- at least among the human races, and maybe for the other humanoid species as well.

A member of a telepathic species, however, might only need to 'ping' a stranger of the same species, and that ping would carry not only a basic acknowledgement of the stranger's presence, but several subtexts; including the pinging party's telepathic signature, their emotional state, and an explicit request or implied expectation for a similar 'ping' in return.

All taking place in milliseconds.

Well, then let me ask that question instead. Does standard Trade have any universal greeting pattern? Something that is as neutral as it gets, especially for a newly met species? Smiling can be interpreted as baring teeth, for example, and swinging appendages could be seen as a sign of aggression, too. Maybe the Orgus, being merchants, have preserved this, even if it was lost in Loroi trade.

Also, what would "Glimpse of Eternity" (as a name) translate to?

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:18 pm

Well, then let me ask that question instead. Does standard Trade have any universal greeting pattern? Something that is as neutral as it gets, especially for a newly met species? Smiling can be interpreted as baring teeth, for example, and swinging appendages could be seen as a sign of aggression, too.

Why would a universally inoffensive greeting be important for Trade? You are either adressing savages that aren't even spacefaring yet or a spacefaring species that knows not to put too much emphasis on body language during first contact.
Plus the empire that has enough power to establish its own language as the universal one does not to worry about offending others.

If all else fails, a simple "Greetings" can serve well enough.

Werra wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:05 pm

[...] You are either addressing savages that aren't even spacefaring yet or a spacefaring species that knows not to put too much emphasis on body language during first contact. [...]

Or you are somewhere in the middle; addressing people who understand the concept of space-faring, and have maybe even launched a few satellites; but they live in a balkanized world full of potential enemies, where the various governmental propaganda machines have conflated the meanings of "enemies" and "strangers" for so long that even the friendliest of gestures from a stranger is misinterpreted as an existential threat, and where even the most democratic of nations are split between the opposing ideologies of inclusion and isolationism.

Have you ever watched the 1951 version of "The Day the Earth Stood Still"?  I recommend it.

There may be some established communication protocols for those civilizations that has some experience of Trade or Soia-Liron artifacts, but that sort of thing probably requires a lot more thought than I'm willing to put into it, as it would have to include radio frequencies and IP-like comm protocols, etc. But many newly-met civilizations (like Humanity) won't know anything about Trade, so that sort of thing would have to be figured out on the fly. I'm sure each government has its own protocols for how to handle first contacts, but I don't think there can be any "universal" greeting pattern... the aliens may not even have appendages or mouths that can smile. If you somehow meet in person, what you say initially won't matter very much, because there's very little chance that you'll be understood.

I would expect that initial contact with a technological civilization would happen first remotely, via signals that may not include visuals. Even if an alien ship stumbles directly into one of your systems (as the Orgus did), it will take some electronic back and forth to establish common communication settings. I'm not sure how that would be done, but I imagine there are some clever boffins who have thought the matter through.

If you're meeting a pre-technological culture for the first time in person, I imagine that there are established anthropological practices for this sort of thing.

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:18 pm

Also, what would "Glimpse of Eternity" (as a name) translate to?

I can come up with a few approximations:

maigid binar "revelation of infinity"
berizon mi maigid saiedad "seeing a moment of infinity"

Werra wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:05 pm

Why would a universally inoffensive greeting be important for Trade? You are either adressing savages that aren't even spacefaring yet or a spacefaring species that knows not to put too much emphasis on body language during first contact.
Plus the empire that has enough power to establish its own language as the universal one does not to worry about offending others.

If all else fails, a simple "Greetings" can serve well enough.

Trade was also the language of the Soia empire, and all of its members used it to communicate with each other. A universal greeting might have made sense.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 am

There may be some established communication protocols for those civilizations that has some experience of Trade or Soia-Liron artifacts, but that sort of thing probably requires a lot more thought than I'm willing to put into it, as it would have to include radio frequencies and IP-like comm protocols, etc.

It's not that important anyway, I'm just collecting various ideas to spice up another fanfic that I'm planning to write.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 am

If you're meeting a pre-technological culture for the first time in person, I imagine that there are established anthropological practices for this sort of thing.

I guess the Loroi don't have anything resembling the prime directive.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:55 am

I can come up with a few approximations:

maigid binar "revelation of infinity"
berizon mi maigid saiedad "seeing a moment of infinity"

The first one sounds good, I'll take that. Thanks!

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:55 pm

Werra wrote: ↑

Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:05 pm

Why would a universally inoffensive greeting be important for Trade? You are either adressing savages that aren't even spacefaring yet or a spacefaring species that knows not to put too much emphasis on body language during first contact.
Plus the empire that has enough power to establish its own language as the universal one does not to worry about offending others.

If all else fails, a simple "Greetings" can serve well enough.

Trade was also the language of the Soia empire, and all of its members used it to communicate with each other. A universal greeting might have made sense.

Universal greeting =/= universally inoffensive greeting.

"Smile at strangers and you just might change your life." -- Steve Maraboli

The man did not say how your life would change; but only that it would change ... for better ... or for much, much worse ...

Yeah, smiling while showing your teeth might be seen as very aggressive by a non-predating (vegetarian) species that evolved on a world where they were hunted down by predators...

Werra wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:31 pm

Universal greeting =/= universally inoffensive greeting.

Not necessarily, but since the Empire encompassed a great variety of species at different stages of development, it could have existed.

Keklas Rekobah wrote: ↑

Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:44 pm

"Smile at strangers and you just might change your life." -- Steve Maraboli

The man did not say how your life would change; but only that it would change ... for better ... or for much, much worse ...

The Loroi seem to prefer a different kind of diplomacy:

“You can go a long way with a smile. You can go a lot farther with a smile and a gun.”

― Al Capone

Just replace "gun" with orbital bombardment

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:11 am

The Loroi seem to prefer a different kind of diplomacy:

“You can go a long way with a smile. You can go a lot farther with a smile and a gun.”

― Al Capone

Just replace "gun" with orbital bombardment.

I prefer the term "Deadfall Ordnance".  Dropping big rocks (or asteroids) on someone's head (or planet) is just as effective as shooting them in the face (or nuking them from orbit).

Read "Agent of the Imperium" (Copyright © 2015 by Marc Miller; pages 22-24) for a more detailed description on how the "scrub" a planet.

Actually, I believe that nuking them is cheaper.

Nuking will irradiate the surface and make resettlement efforts more difficult. Kinetic weaponry, or just plain old space rocks, are "clean" and also far cheaper.

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:14 pm

Nuking will irradiate the surface and make resettlement efforts more difficult. Kinetic weaponry, or just plain old space rocks, are "clean" and also far cheaper.

Clean yes.

Cheap? Not really.


Just how many ships would it take to pushba large asteroid quickly to the trajectory you want it to go?

Answer? A lot.

And they would have to be optimized, basically fuel tanks with engines and little else.

Otherwise one could take months or years for an asteroid to hit where you want it to go. And in that time an enemy can assault the fleet pushing the rock.

You could also plasma or laser the rock ton push it at range, but that depletes the rock and also is less efficient than just directly pushing it where you wanna go.

Also that fleet could also be intercepted.

Rock throwing requires non contest space superiority

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:14 pm

Nuking will irradiate the surface and make resettlement efforts more difficult. Kinetic weaponry, or just plain old space rocks, are "clean" and also far cheaper.

The large scale destruction of industry that such an orbital bombardment will cause surely makes it anything but clean. If you need to terraform the planet anyway to make it habitable again, why not use what is most convenient for you?

If by "clean" you mean "not lethally radioactive for the next million years", then dropping space-rocks would be the preferred method, as it may only eject enough dust into the air to prevent photosynthesis for a few years, thus starving the native population.  Once the dust settles and all the natives are dead, you move your troops and colonists in and repopulate the world.

But if by "clean", you mean "maintaining a life-supportive environment", then neither space rocks nor nukes are acceptable, and a full-scale genocide must be carried out by orbital, air, sea, and ground troops in a protracted war of attrition.

Finally, if your goal is to make the world uninhabitable for anyone for the foreseeable future, then reducing the world's surface to radioactive ash and slag is the way to go.

ANYWAY, we seem to have gone way off-topic.

Keklas Rekobah wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:43 pm

If by "clean" you mean "not lethally radioactive for the next million years", then dropping space-rocks would be the preferred method, as it may only eject enough dust into the air to prevent photosynthesis for a few years, thus starving the native population.  Once the dust settles and all the natives are dead, you move your troops and colonists in and repopulate the world.

But if by "clean", you mean "maintaining a life-supportive environment", then neither space rocks nor nukes are acceptable, and a full-scale genocide must be carried out by orbital, air, sea, and ground troops in a protracted war of attrition.

Finally, if your goal is to make the world uninhabitable for anyone for the foreseeable future, then reducing the world's surface to radioactive ash and slag is the way to go.

ANYWAY, we seem to have gone way off-topic.

The nuclear submarine guys could ride it out. Fish when they need food.

Bamax wrote: ↑

Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:52 am

Keklas Rekobah wrote: ↑

Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:43 pm

If by "clean" you mean "not lethally radioactive for the next million years", then dropping space-rocks would be the preferred method, as it may only eject enough dust into the air to prevent photosynthesis for a few years, thus starving the native population.  Once the dust settles and all the natives are dead, you move your troops and colonists in and repopulate the world.  But if by "clean", you mean "maintaining a life-supportive environment", then neither space rocks nor nukes are acceptable, and a full-scale genocide must be carried out by orbital, air, sea, and ground troops in a protracted war of attrition.  Finally, if your goal is to make the world uninhabitable for anyone for the foreseeable future, then reducing the world's surface to radioactive ash and slag is the way to go.  ANYWAY, we seem to have gone way off-topic.

The nuclear submarine guys could ride it out. Fish when they need food.

The shock waves alone would likely rupture the hulls of any submarines 'lucky' enough to avoid a direct hit.  There would be no one left to fish, and no fish left, either.

The intent of a total planetary scrub is to wipe out all forms of life on a planetary surface, including in the oceans.  A planetary scrub with space rocks would either boil the seas or splash them up onto land -- likely both.  The Chicxulub Event was just one asteroid, so Imagine the Chicxulub Event happening a thousand times over the entire surface (oceans too) of an Earth-sized planet.  Some of those rocks would target geologic faults; others would target volcanos and volcanic fields, and the rest would target industrial centers, airports, harbors, and densely-populated urban areas.  For example, just one hit from a hundred-meter asteroid on the Yellowstone Caldera would trigger a mega-volcanic event more than 1,000 times larger than the 1980 eruption of Mount St. Helens.  A thousand such volcanos would fill the atmosphere with dust, ash, and sulfur dioxide, which would combine with steam from the boiling seas and form sulfuric acid.

A total planetary scrub is not a warning; it is a final solution on a global scale.