Loroi abilities, and Loroi Judo

[TeidarPallanLeinnol]

OUR JUDO > YOUR "JUDO"

THAT IS ALL

[discord]

daelyte: small detail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_Magnum
that round has a muzzle energy well over 4000 ft/lbs

and on the hunting rifle kill, it could also be shock that killed him, probably a combination of plain shock and hydrostatic shock caused heart failure and instant shutdown, but this is just my guess on a 'urban legend' which i have not verified but seems plausible.

and i am not saying grappling does not work, what i am saying is it does not work well at all against multiple opponents due to long moves leaving you open to attack from his friends.

[fredgiblet]

5.56mm NATO(5.56x45mm) is a generally a full metal jacket round designed to punch neat little holes in people

Actually no, it's designed to tumble and fragment shredding your insides in a way that's perfectly legal under the Hague Convention while still being actually effective. The problem is that the specific design of the bullet plus the switch to carbine style weapons over full-length rifles have made "punching neat little holes" an unfortunately common event.

[junk]

OUR JUDO > YOUR "JUDO"

THAT IS ALL

Considering that some of it might be based on mental war as well, it's quite possible a non heavy TK loroi could be very confused fighting a human. Since they couldn't read them properly.

Imagine if all your life you could hear, then someone deafened you and you were supposed to fight someone who's been deaf all their lives. And both of you are trained fighters.

[Karst45]

OUR JUDO > YOUR "JUDO"

THAT IS ALL

Considering that some of it might be based on mental war as well, it's quite possible a non heavy TK loroi could be very confused fighting a human. Since they couldn't read them properly.

Imagine if all your life you could hear, then someone deafened you and you were supposed to fight someone who's been deaf all their lives. And both of you are trained fighters.

DareDevilish style? except being blind.

[daelyte]

daelyte: small detail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.458_Winchester_Magnum
that round has a muzzle energy well over 4000 ft/lbs

Kinetic energy and momentum are not the same. A bullet going twice as fast has four times as much kinetic energy, but only twice as much momentum. This is why most bulletproof vests are fine for stopping bullets, yet you can stab or punch someone through them.

and on the hunting rifle kill, it could also be shock that killed him, probably a combination of plain shock and hydrostatic shock caused heart failure and instant shutdown, but this is just my guess on a 'urban legend' which i have not verified but seems plausible.

Hydrostatic shock is unproven and probably a myth.

Neurogenic shock can result from severe central nervous system damage (brain injury, cervical or high thoracic spinal cord).

Hypovolemic shock is the most common type of shock and is caused by insufficient circulating volume, aka blood loss.

and i am not saying grappling does not work, what i am saying is it does not work well at all against multiple opponents due to long moves leaving you open to attack from his friends.

If you're talking about locks and chokes, whether on the ground or standing, don't work well against multiple opponents, I agree.

If you're saying trips and quick throws don't work against multiple opponents, based on my personal experience, you're wrong.

Where striking is better than grappling is in its cumulative nature, especially against skilled opponents. When fighting someone who is good at grappling, I offer the following quote:

Carlson Gracie once said, “Punch a jiu-jitsu black belt in the face once and he becomes a brown belt, punch him in the face twice and he becomes a purple belt.”

Considering that some of it might be based on mental war as well, it's quite possible a non heavy TK loroi could be very confused fighting a human. Since they couldn't read them properly.

Imagine if all your life you could hear, then someone deafened you and you were supposed to fight someone who's been deaf all their lives. And both of you are trained fighters.

I thought about that too but loroi can also defend against loroi telepathy. Because historically loroi have fought each other probably longer than they ever fought anyone else, their martial training would likely include fighting without reliance on telepathy when needed.

[discord]

daelyte: on bullet proof vests, it MIGHT have something to do with most of'em are just a bunch of fabric, scissor cuts paper but grabs rock and you really should not bring a knife to a gun fight.

and it does 'stop' a punch, since it usually not penetrates through it which is what it is designed for, it does not magically remove kinetic energy however.

on various 'shock' theories there is SOMETHING to it, the exact mechanic of it is unclear though, but since people have dropped dead without any obvious reason(since the only damage that should cause pretty immediate death should be severe heart or brain damage) but still they die....so why? pretty identical wounds, one dies another does not....why?


then we are pretty much in agreement, submission stuff highly favors numbers, slight point of disagreement is that i consider 'throwing people around' to be a waste of time, since it does not stop the other guy for more than a few seconds...although i suppose you could follow through but that brings me back to time and multiple opponents, but if you want to avoid hurting the other guy but still marking that you CAN handle him, it works fine, bah, probably a matter of personal preference.

[ed_montague]

OUR JUDO > YOUR "JUDO"

THAT IS ALL

Considering that some of it might be based on mental war as well, it's quite possible a non heavy TK loroi could be very confused fighting a human. Since they couldn't read them properly.

Imagine if all your life you could hear, then someone deafened you and you were supposed to fight someone who's been deaf all their lives. And both of you are trained fighters.

Nitpick: Loroi can still hear other Loroi, which may be of some use in a one-on-one fight with a second Loroi observing or something. ("He's going for his knife! Quick, shoot him!") A more apt metaphor would be, "Imagine if all your life you could read other people's thoughts and fight telepathically, then were forced to fight someone in a physical duel who is somehow resistant to almost all forms of telepathic contact."

Wait...dammit.

[daelyte]

daelyte: on bullet proof vests, it MIGHT have something to do with most of'em are just a bunch of fabric, scissor cuts paper but grabs rock and you really should not bring a knife to a gun fight.

What I've been saying is that bringing a gun to a knife fight - or a fistfight - is no guarantee of coming out unharmed or even alive, either. What does guarantee is that there will be a gun at the scene, which raises the stakes significantly if you end up struggling for it. It also doesn't provide any non-lethal options, which legally can be a problem if you get attacked by a couple of unarmed drunks.

and it does 'stop' a punch, since it usually not penetrates through it which is what it is designed for, it does not magically remove kinetic energy however.

Exactly. So how many died of hydrostatic shock after getting shot with their bulletproof vests? How many died of hydrostatic shock after getting punched in the gut?

on various 'shock' theories there is SOMETHING to it, the exact mechanic of it is unclear though, but since people have dropped dead without any obvious reason(since the only damage that should cause pretty immediate death should be severe heart or brain damage) but still they die....so why? pretty identical wounds, one dies another does not....why?

How about death by fear? There are documented cases of that. Getting shot can be pretty scary, especially for a furry little varmint who's never seen a gun before.

then we are pretty much in agreement, submission stuff highly favors numbers, slight point of disagreement is that i consider 'throwing people around' to be a waste of time, since it does not stop the other guy for more than a few seconds...although i suppose you could follow through but that brings me back to time and multiple opponents, but if you want to avoid hurting the other guy but still marking that you CAN handle him, it works fine, bah, probably a matter of personal preference.

If you're cornered, putting an opponent or two on the ground for even a few seconds may open enough of a hole to RUN, which is the best thing to do in self defense situations when possible.

It may keep you safe long enough for help to arrive.

If the number of standing attackers is down to one, you may have enough time for a high amplitude throw, which as I already discussed earlier can be much more disabling.

Finally, warding off attackers without damaging them can help avoid expensive civil suits.

[discord]

daelyte: depends on the situation, in a robbery situation, if the other guy with a gun is within reach, assuming only one armed assailant, he's toast, yes, but if his aim is to KILL not intimidate a gun is usually much superior since it can kill at a distance.

fear is possible, yes, pain is another with shock(some sort of pain/fear/injury causing muscle contraction combination) a third part, it's that third part hydrostatic shock proponents tries to quantify.
and the side note, a severe punch(usually palm strike or elbow) to the chest over the heart has been known to stop it at times, the theory is that the 'shock wave' comes over as the heart is contracted and getting the rhythm so fucked up it just stops.

and on the 'avoiding civil suits' i personally do not give a flying fuck about it, in court i'll honestly say 'i personally prefer to be in court rather than a morgue, so i am all good.' or something similar at which point i HOPE someone will be shamed by the pure stupidity of the proceeding to just toss the idiocy out....and on a side note, a corpse never takes anyone to court, so a curb stomp ego bruising incident is much more likely to cause court time compared to simply ending the darwin award recipient.

to be honest though, the preference of court to morgue is nowhere near as big as some might think, and there really should be a 'stupidity clause' in the justice system, if you are a fucking moronic tard with delusions of system manipulation, you get stiffed the court costs for it's wasted time and thrown out.

[saint of m]

Been a while, but this caught my attention.

From what I understand on a few things on what I've read, or seen in film commentaries and documentaries, here are my 2 cents.


1. Knives. In a combat situation you want a stabbing weapon more then you do a slicing weapon as both parties might be hyped up on adrenalin and not thinking about that, and you'll take a long tome to bleed, and you might die of exhaustion before anything major happens. Yes, slicing can do some serious damage, but it has to go down deep enough or get lucky.

Stabbing someone will do more damage, although generally one needs more then one stab most of the time to take someone out.

2. Guns. Guns can do alot of damage, and while many wounds are treatable, the fact is it is a weapon that can do a lot of damage, with the larger calibers leaving bigger holes. As for stopping power, it depends because a .22 caliber round wouldn't drop someone hyped up on meth until you have emptied a whole clip in them, and even then they could probably take it. Something like a .45, especially if it's a magnum, was made for stopping someone in their tracks."

Also you have to know what to aim for. Most of the time you are aiming for the chest because bigger area, more vitals, so more likely to get a kill. Head shots are nice, but are hard to pull off unless you are really that good.


3. Martial Arts. Most martial arts by themselves have their moments, but everyone has a weakness. Ty Kwan Do relies heavily on kicking; nearly all of them are useless once you get them on the ground; and any form of jujitsu is largely useless if you can't grapple your opponent. However, a mix of martial arts, like kajukenbo deal with these weaknesses by taking what is good about each of them, thus eliminating some of the problems. Moreover, many a master in it will be teaching you to deal with what happens in the real world, including groups. Who to attack, who to ignore, who to charge?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajukenbo


Although, I have to wonder a couple things with Loroi physiology. In combat is there a range for the psychic abilities, like you can do this much or at this range before your brain fries? I know it isn't a simply not using enough brain power as most brain functions are automated, and done without thinking (telling your body to breathing, flinching, blink, salivate, or sneeze), and when we do use a 100% of our brain, we call it a seizure. But would there be some kind of strain, like a popped blood vessel or something, if too much psychic abilities were used?

On a more physical level, would they have some of the same pressure points as a human, and therefore could be used against them in combat?

[Michael]

they are sort of like us in physiology so i imagine they do have some similar pressure points

i was also wondering what sort of limitations their mental powers have, aside from the distance limitation

[Absalom]

I understand that the range & power of the telepathic & related abilities depends on a mixture of training, & the individual Loroi. Health & similar issues presumably also have an influence.

In short: it depends, but you're better off attacking a Listel than a Mizol.

[fredgiblet]

@saint of m

A .44 Magnum round has about 2/3 the muzzle energy of a 5.56 NATO round. Until you start getting into full-power rifle rounds like 7.62 NATO shot placement is king. When you're talking about short-term survival a .22LR to the heart is more valuable than a .50AE to the gut.

[daelyte]

daelyte: depends on the situation, in a robbery situation, if the other guy with a gun is within reach, assuming only one armed assailant, he's toast, yes, but if his aim is to KILL not intimidate a gun is usually much superior since it can kill at a distance.

I agree. What I'm saying is that when facing a determined knife wielder within rushing distance, a handgun doesn't guarantee your safety as well as, say, full plate armor.

fear is possible, yes, pain is another with shock(some sort of pain/fear/injury causing muscle contraction combination) a third part, it's that third part hydrostatic shock proponents tries to quantify.
and the side note, a severe punch(usually palm strike or elbow) to the chest over the heart has been known to stop it at times, the theory is that the 'shock wave' comes over as the heart is contracted and getting the rhythm so fucked up it just stops.

Maybe, but I wouldn't count on that to stop an attacker in his tracks.

and on the 'avoiding civil suits' i personally do not give a flying fuck about it, in court i'll honestly say 'i personally prefer to be in court rather than a morgue, so i am all good.' or something similar at which point i HOPE someone will be shamed by the pure stupidity of the proceeding to just toss the idiocy out....

You wouldn't be the first to say that, but juries often don't see it that way.

and on a side note, a corpse never takes anyone to court, so a curb stomp ego bruising incident is much more likely to cause court time compared to simply ending the darwin award recipient.

Ending the darwin award recipient is more likely to cause major prison time.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43710936/ns ... be-robber/
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/ ... ndant.html

If you manage to get the jury to let go of you, even corpses have mommies, and most of them are SURE their kid was innocent. The burden of proof in civil court is different than in criminal court, you can be found guilty even if there's a reasonable doubt, and the cost of defense alone often leaves people bankrupt.

1. Knives. In a combat situation you want a stabbing weapon more then you do a slicing weapon as both parties might be hyped up on adrenalin and not thinking about that, and you'll take a long tome to bleed, and you might die of exhaustion before anything major happens. Yes, slicing can do some serious damage, but it has to go down deep enough or get lucky.

Stabbing someone will do more damage, although generally one needs more then one stab most of the time to take someone out.

I agree with this, but I would add: if the target is defending himself, he is likely to get his hands and forearms sliced up long before getting stabbed anywhere important. In a knife vs knife fight, you don't want to get within stabbing range unless you have a clear advantage, so extended slicing becomes even more likely.

2. Guns. Guns can do alot of damage, and while many wounds are treatable, the fact is it is a weapon that can do a lot of damage, with the larger calibers leaving bigger holes. As for stopping power, it depends because a .22 caliber round wouldn't drop someone hyped up on meth until you have emptied a whole clip in them, and even then they could probably take it. Something like a .45, especially if it's a magnum, was made for stopping someone in their tracks."

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/1 ... er-or-not/

I wouldn't count on any handgun's stopping power for my self-defense needs.

Also you have to know what to aim for. Most of the time you are aiming for the chest because bigger area, more vitals, so more likely to get a kill. Head shots are nice, but are hard to pull off unless you are really that good.

Don't forget the kneecaps. One bad knee can be enough to stop even the most determined charge.

3. Martial Arts. Most martial arts by themselves have their moments, but everyone has a weakness. Ty Kwan Do relies heavily on kicking; nearly all of them are useless once you get them on the ground; and any form of jujitsu is largely useless if you can't grapple your opponent.

What do you mean can't grapple your opponent? Even boxing and kyokushin constantly end up in clinches.

IMO the worst weaknesses of any martial art come in the form of bad habits due to how the art is trained, more than in what it never claimed to cover. Taekwondo's high kicks can get your leg caught, and thus leave you very vulnerable. Many boxers don't realize the risk of breaking their hand when punching someone in the face with their bare knuckles.


If you said that BJJ provides rather poor training in takedowns considering their reliance on ground fighting, I'd agree with you. Butt flopping doesn't work so well outside BJJ tournaments.

Among judo weaknesses, I'd say there's not enough training in alternate grips. While pretty much any judo throws can be done without the jacket, and even with closed fists, most judokas won't know how to adapt most of them if they've never tried. In competitions we too often see throws with poor followup, where the winner falls shortly after his opponent and in an unfavorable position (ex: giving up his back).

Wrestling in general is a lot more dependent on physical ability than jujitsu styles. It also puts more emphasis on following the opponent to the ground, which is not always be the best option in a self-defense situation.

Folk style wrestling tackles put the wrestler in a bad position if he fails, something like a half of fights lost by wrestlers under mixed grappling or MMA rules are lost to the guillotine choke. A failed tackle against an armed attacker can be fatal - you can end up with a slit throat, or a brick in the back of the head.

Greco-roman wrestling aim to grapple in a clinch yet trains no defenses against trips and tackles.

Catch wrestling has a higher risk of leaving practitioners permanently crippled due to injuries to the spine or legs. Other than that, it has the usual wrestling weaknesses I guess.

However, a mix of martial arts, like kajukenbo deal with these weaknesses by taking what is good about each of them, thus eliminating some of the problems. Moreover, many a master in it will be teaching you to deal with what happens in the real world, including groups. Who to attack, who to ignore, who to charge?

Kajukenbo schools vary widely. Some of them spend a lot more time on katas than on full contact sparring unfortunately, while others spar a lot more. What sparring I did see in videos looked a lot like Sanshou, aka kickboxing plus takedowns but not much (or good) ground fighting.

It could use more work on basic pins and escapes (as found in the judo component), otherwise if they do get taken down by say, an unexpected tackle they would be pretty helpless from that point on. Also gloves and the risk of self-injury when punching someone in the head.

[junk]

The kata's versus actual sparring is pretty much a problem in every single civilian martial art. Kata's make rank progression easy and look flashy. So a lot of people eat them up and a lot of teachers tend to focus on them more than on what they should.

As to good knife fighter against another one. There's that common saying, that if you have two good knife fighters, you don't end the fight with one getting stabbed. But from one bleeding out from far too many small cuts to count.

[saint of m]

@ Junk: Pretty much, which is why knives should be last resort or for stealthier kills.

@daelyte: whaat I meant by grappling is getting the opponent on the ground and keeping them there or raining blows upon them. Most mainstream martial arts like to be in a more standing position or prefer to have a bit of range. Take that away and the fight is already gone in your favor. However, you can get around that.

Kajukenbo schools do very, but that is the point. They expect their students to mix and match different martial arts, and there are justifiably good moves in each style. The problem is it's alot like Rock Paper Scissors where one can beat one, but is helpless against the third.

As for guns, I'm not sure about you needing a rifle as some of the military handguns that go with a large caliber were designed for that problem (they go somewhere in the jungle, and the standard side arm won't stop someone hyped up on something). However the assult riffle or shotgun would be a better bet, for sure, with some like the Berowolf designed to do nothing but stop things in their tracks (in the case of the 50's cal. Short range Baowolf, stop a car).

[fredgiblet]

the .45 ACP and 9mm military handguns are LESS powerful than many civilian guns. They are designed as backup weapons for soldiers who have much more effective weapons on hand. A .44 Magnum has 2-3 times the muzzle energy of the .45 ACP but the restrictions of weight and bulk on a gun that will easily take the Magnum (as well as the rimmed cartridge) makes it totally unsuitable for military use. For comparison the Colt Anaconda weighs 47 ounces with a 4 inch barrel while the Glock 17 weighs 22.

A retraction, I didn't check the units, a .44 Magnum has roughly the same muzzle energy as 5.56 NATO.

.50 Beowulf is an interesting round, it lacks long-range performance but at short-range it's probably pretty amazing and starts to reach the range where shot placement becomes less important.

[saint of m]

I stand corected on the side arms.

As for the Beowolf, it was designed as a close quarters weapon, especially for guards at checkpoints so they can kill a charging car's engine, among other things.

[daelyte]

The kata's versus actual sparring is pretty much a problem in every single civilian martial art. Kata's make rank progression easy and look flashy. So a lot of people eat them up and a lot of teachers tend to focus on them more than on what they should.

What about Boxing or Wrestling? IIRC, they have no kata whatsoever, are they not civilian martial arts?

what I meant by grappling is getting the opponent on the ground and keeping them there or raining blows upon them. Most mainstream martial arts like to be in a more standing position or prefer to have a bit of range. Take that away and the fight is already gone in your favor. However, you can get around that.

Ah, then yes good takedown defense can help avoid ground grappling most of the time. However I don't see how that weakness applies to most forms of jujutsu, other than BJJ.

Brazilian Jiujitsu is the only art I know of that's primarily focused on ground fighting.

Japanese Jujutsu trains not only throws and submissions but also strikes and techniques not allowed in sports. Most only do kata however, and those that do sparring and randori still tend to put too much emphasis on eye gouges and groin strikes which IMO are overrated.

Aikido is derived from mostly the same jujutsu roots as judo, notably daito-ryu aiki-jujutsu. Other than shodokan aikido, I don't know any that do randori - the rest only train with compliant partners. I don't think they have much groundwork at all, other than doing wrist locks on each other while sitting.

Judo focuses on throws. Maybe 1/3 of training time goes to ground fighting, in 30 second bouts, with victory by submission or a 10 second hold. Apparently that's enough for a judo blackbelt to have the advantage overa BJJ blackbelt for those first 30 seconds, but it if lasts over a minute the BJJ guy wins by attrition.

Sport Sambo is similar to judo, but with more focus on following an opponent to the ground and finishing them quickly with joint locks. They can still throw people without following them, of course.

Combat Sambo, MCMAP, Defendu and Krav Maga are all descended partly from judo, but incorporated other arts to cover striking so I don't think ground grappling is central to their strategy either. Weaknesses would vary from fighter to fighter.

Kajukenbo schools do very, but that is the point. They expect their students to mix and match different martial arts, and there are justifiably good moves in each style.

The same philosophy as Jeet Kune Do, and now MMA, but with a different starting mix. Not knocking it, quite the opposite. What I saw seemed to fall short in terms of skill on the ground, but other than that it seems very good.

The problem is it's alot like Rock Paper Scissors where one can beat one, but is helpless against the third.

Yes, I hear the chinese have it as strikes, throws, and submissions. Throws beat strikes, submissions beat throws, and strikes beat submissions.

Sanshou (and what I've seen of Kajukenbo) would thus be in a prime position to beat pure BJJ or Muay Thai fighters. IMO its weakness would be wrestlers who have great takedowns, and are good at staying on top on the ground so they can pummel from there.