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I sense something. Something I've not felt since... 
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
trashman: neither me nor icekatze said anything about how 'realistic' lightsaber fight choreography are, just that shown effects clearly indicates certain behavior, which in turn indicates physics involved. And according to that shown behavior that "crossguard" makes little to no sense.

on the subject of the 'single split beam' hypothesis i reply delay between main blade and crossguard formation makes that unlikely.
if however it looked something like this http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/armo ... dagger.htm it might hold water.

and on stickiness(or friction, although i am uncertain if that word better describes the effect shown.) it would not really take much for the sliding along the blade move to be effectively impossible to pull off.
and since there has never been a shown case of 'sliding along blade' attack that i can recall....

bottom line, pointless, silly and possibly dangerous to self.


Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:02 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
I think everyone needs to calm down a little on the crossguard debate.

In my view, the original light saber took its cue from the katana rather than any European sword, though even katana's have a small and understated guard in the form of the tsuba. Light sabers being able to cut through anything fairly rapidly seems to suggest a greater benefit going towards reaction time, which force precognition would certainly help with.

The reason we saw a lot of saber rattling though is because of the expectations of sword fights in films. The clash of blades is ingrained into western audiences from a long history of being exposed to that. Slashing and dodging in rapid sequences would have been harder to film and understand for audiences, so there's probably a bit of directorial influence that goes into the presentation as well.

The saber with the crossguard is a different style of saber that seems to be used by a different Jedi order, light dark or other doesn't really matter. It's a stylistic choice that differs from what's come before, which made its own stylistic choices for equally dubious reasons. Rather than trying to justify it using real life reasoning and nattering, it's probably better by far to ask the following questions:

What is the nature of the Jedi order who uses these differing blades?
Why do they use different blades?

These two questions alone raise all sorts of interesting prospects. Perhaps, in the course of a duel where two sabers are crossing blades, the one with the crossguard can redirect the main saber down through the crossguard, allowing him to stab his opponent without actually moving anything more than his fingers. Perhaps the reason the Jedi orders we've been exposed to that haven't used the crossguard opted for the original saber because it's better at cutting through things than the splitting nature of the crossguard style.

All sorts of interesting stuff really. Much more interesting than sniping at each other about which one is clearly the superior sword, which reminds me of the Katana vs <<Insert Sword>> debates that have been done ad nauseum.

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Tue Apr 21, 2015 8:15 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
The best sword is obviously a Mosin Nagant. </thread>

:mrgreen:

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Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:02 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
hi hi

Part of the reason why the cross guard breaks suspension of disbelief is because once you start thinking about little add ons that would make a lightsaber more effective, you inevitably have to accept that any lightsaber is horribly ineffective, and rather than crossguards, they could have added a million and one more useful things.

Like, instead of a cross guard, they could add a flame thrower, so when they cross blades, they can press a button and immolate their opponent.

It exposes the silliness of the original idea as much as it is silly itself.


Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:37 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
http://jollyjack.deviantart.com/art/Dar ... -497529675


Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:48 pm
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Part of the reason why the cross guard breaks suspension of disbelief is because once you start thinking about little add ons that would make a lightsaber more effective, you inevitably have to accept that any lightsaber is horribly ineffective, and rather than crossguards, they could have added a million and one more useful things.

Like, instead of a cross guard, they could add a flame thrower, so when they cross blades, they can press a button and immolate their opponent.

It exposes the silliness of the original idea as much as it is silly itself.


Which is why you throw in a cost, such as beam attenuation for splitting the main saber into three making it less capable of slicing through solid objects or allowing for a proper saber to cut through the cross saber with sufficient application of force, or the flamethrower addon being an incredibly bulky and unwieldy addon that makes quick actions impossible to execute. Under this regime, even claymore style light sabers that require both hands and force application become possible so long as you weigh them down with enough drawbacks to make it a viable option rather than an overpowered combo that doesn't get used for reasons.

I mean, if cross guards like this are that objectionable, shouldn't Darth Maul's double light saber have caused just as much if not more outrage? Why would any Jedi use a regular light saber when they could use the double light saber? It's arguably a better weapon than the regular light saber, but the drawbacks are a bit more obvious and clear to see, since it requires a greater degree of control so you don't wind up slicing yourself to pieces.

Tradeoffs are a thing when it comes to weapons. The katana has excellent cutting power, but struggles against armour and isn't too good on defense, the claymore is a beast of a weapon when bashing against armoured opponents but would never cut through an unarmored opponent as cleanly or as quickly as a katana could. A rapier is wonderful for piercing the joints in armour or delivering a precision strike that no blade could match, but it can't penetrate armour and has zero cutting power. Different weapons have their advantages and drawbacks. I don't see why that wouldn't apply for a light saber and a cross saber, or any other variation of saber that might appear. It adds variety to the universe and takes very little away from it in my view.

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Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:38 pm
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
hi hi

Speaking of Darth Maul... I own a copy of Star Wars episodes 4, 5, and 6. I don't own a copy of the Phantom Menace. The end. ;)


Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:59 pm
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
razor: darth mauls insanity is also stupid, it is based on the quarterstaff(or just long fighting stick, whichever) however, the reason those weapons are so effective is the ability to change your grip around at will and thereby changing the dynamics of the weapon, the saberstaff does not have that, and is in effect only a crappier version of the standard saber, since it greatly limits your movements.
not saying you cant move, just that you have fewer moves available to use, example would be slightly diagonal downward strike, it will cut your leg with the back end and is therefor not advisable or the sweeping horizontal sideward strike which with the standard gets far behind you while the double saber would at the same angle cut you in half.

limits your movements, it's not that you CANT fight with these gimmicks, it's that it gets in the way more than it's an advantage.


Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:57 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
discord wrote:
trashman: neither me nor icekatze said anything about how 'realistic' lightsaber fight choreography are, just that shown effects clearly indicates certain behavior, which in turn indicates physics involved. And according to that shown behavior that "crossguard" makes little to no sense.


It does nothing of the sort.
It's nothing but an assumption.

"1. They don't slide their blades down.
2. Sliding the blade down is a logical move.
3. Ergo, there must be something preventing them from doing it! The blades stick!"

It's backwards rationalization and only ONE possible explanation/conclusion. Here's a few more:
3.) the Jedi simply suck at swordfighting
3.) Sliding down never occurred to them.
4.) the coreography makes no sense, and we shouldn't even TRY to look deeper into it.

Either apply logic and science fully, or don't bother with half-measures that only exist to plug holes.


Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:34 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
hi hi

Lightsabers are not swords, they're lightsabres. "A more elegant weapon for a civilized age." Real sword fighting is not elegant, it is fast, ugly, and generally over before the participants can turn a phrase. Similarly blasters are not guns, they're blasters. There may be some likenesses, but guns don't make walls explode in a shower of sparks when hit.

X-wings and TIE fighters fly around like WWII propeller planes, but they're not, and it doesn't make sense to discuss the full science of quadratic drag on lifting surfaces while talking about them. And it would be silly to attach a Pitot Tube to an X-wing, so that they could have the advantage of knowing the wind speed and direction in space.

- Jedi are canonically stated to be masters of fighting with a lightsaber.
- The idea that something so basic and unavoidably simple as sliding never occurred to a master is absurd.
- Star Wars is space opera, and has nothing to do with science. The choreography in the original movies was designed to tell a story about character relationships.

I don't mind people making assumptions, but if you're going to insult other people about them, you should look to your own first. Like assumptions about what people do and do not know about something, for instance.


Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:06 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
Just curious..

If I write a book and describe a character as a tactical genius...then write a battle scene in which he does the most stupidest things that even someone who is not knowledgabe in miltiary tactics would see are stupid and should cause a disaster - and yet the character ends up winning.... which takes precedence?


And b.t.w - ALL real fighting is brutal. And it can be elegant and impressive, depending on skill.
Heck, REAL swordsmanship often looks far more intense and better than movie coreography.

So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.


Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:44 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
TrashMan wrote:
Just curious..

If I write a book and describe a character as a tactical genius...then write a battle scene in which he does the most stupidest things that even someone who is not knowledgabe in miltiary tactics would see are stupid and should cause a disaster - and yet the character ends up winning.... which takes precedence?


In the case you describe, the stupid because it breaks the suspension of disbelief and the plausibility of the character's background.

Unless he somehow knew in advance that the enemy was doing something far stupider that would allow the 'tactical genius' to win even with the stupident plot.

Then it's just going down to the level of stupid.

EDIT: I was typing fast but the typo fits perfectly:

Stupident = Stupid + Evident

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Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:10 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
Speaking of sworsdsmanship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-Ms9RMH7IA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi757-7XD94

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwE3dvQlJhM


Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:49 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
hi hi

Quote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

And if Star Wars was real, that might actually mean something.

Look TrashMan, if all you are going to do is tell people they are stupid, while simultaneously not listening to anything anyone else is saying, I see no reason to listen to you any more in return.


Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:07 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
TrashMan wrote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

If you can't make your point more politely than this, then don't post.

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Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:44 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
trashman: so your logical answer to how something depicted works in-verse is an assumption that the makers of said verse are incompetent....that MIGHT explain why the media is the way it is, but it does not however explain how it works in-verse, which is what the rest of us are talking about.

trashman, as someone that knows something about weapon use, have you ever used boffer weapons? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foam_weapon
the slight increase in friction between two of them however makes sliding damn near impossible, which is pretty much what we are talking about, might explain a few things, since that is probably what they are green screening over when filming.


Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:19 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
Is the Colbert Defense the best the claysaber has going for it? The focusing aperture and associated fiddly bits are just there for show? Even if it was designed as such and you could not slice off the guard why then intentionally mask it with material that would cover the hilt with molten slag?

Beyond the design itself being rather pointless, they took an easy art out and copied an existing well known real world weapon rather than push the idea through to a solid end. That may be what rankles most of all.

Example:
Image

See? You can have a cross guard and retain virtually all the range of motion. This configuration would even give you more options since you could catch and apply twisting force to disarm your opponent where you have greatest leverage. Far more sensible.



Between this, repainted TIE Fighters, chopped up x-wings etc. it looks like they skipped right over concept art and went for 8-bit palette swapping.


Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:40 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Quote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

And if Star Wars was real, that might actually mean something.

Look TrashMan, if all you are going to do is tell people they are stupid, while simultaneously not listening to anything anyone else is saying, I see no reason to listen to you any more in return.


That post was my response to the idea that real swordsmanship is ugly and non-cinematic.

It isn't.
People who never seen it canto really comment. It looks better and more interesting than the sword fights in movies...most of the times anyway.

Also, where have I called you stupid?

If you cannot bother to read and just want to play insulted and leave the discussion, I don't see why *I* should bother with *you*.


Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:58 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
Arioch wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

If you can't make your point more politely than this, then don't post.


Is this what passes for "horrible impolitness" in this neck of the woods?
Really?
:roll:

Seems more safe spaces are needed.


Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:01 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
Frankly...

Quote:
And what's stopping contact with the focusing crystal now, genius?


Yes. You have been abrasive and demeaning to others without cause while arrogantly attacking both their intellect and knowledge. Really would prefer the thread not to be locked in an inevitable flame war.


Is it the right post? You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive... hrmmm. Take the post Arioch highlighted and reread it without the offending passage. It conveys all the same points as before. Nothing is lost except the demand that others be silent.


Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:12 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
TrashMan wrote:
Arioch wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

If you can't make your point more politely than this, then don't post.


Is this what passes for "horrible impolitness" in this neck of the woods?
Really?
:roll:

Seems more safe spaces are needed.


I think his warning was more for your benefit than for whoever you were addressing it to. The tone of that particular phrase seemed to undermine your own argument since it came off in a "Sit down and shut up" tone rather than in a tone befitting one who knew the subject matter and was trying to inform. Someone who gets their point across politely is more credible than someone who can only get their point across impolitely, even if the former is objectively wrong, politeness goes a long way toward lending credibility and social legitimacy.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:00 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
TrashMan wrote:
Arioch wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
So don't talk about real fighting if you don't know about it.

If you can't make your point more politely than this, then don't post.


Is this what passes for "horrible impolitness" in this neck of the woods?
Really?
:roll:

Seems more safe spaces are needed.

Personal attacks are not acceptable on this forum, ever, and I won't tolerate it. Telling the person that you are arguing with that he is ignorant or stupid and should shut up is a personal attack, and it does not add to your argument in any way. If that's not what you meant to say, then you should construct your posts more carefully, because that is actually what you said.

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Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:58 am
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Post Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...
I just came here to say that I'm looking forwards to a new Star Wars movie and seeing what Disney does with the franchise. After seeing the second teaser I'm genuinely starting to feel hopeful for the franchise as it looks like its going to be fun regardless of what the swords look like.

Lets all just take a seat, relax, and enjoy the build up to the coming spectacle eh? :D
Spoiler: show
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Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:37 pm
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