The Loroi are Evil!

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Karst45
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Karst45 »

I tough the "cell" he was in was actually a storage compartment.

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Siber
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Siber »

Well, Alex does call it a cell, and considering he's been in there at least a week I'd hope he has access to the kind of facilities you might find in a call but are unlikely to find in a random storage compartment.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

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Since Arioch pointed out some clues how there is things happening on background, I started to think that they might have lied/mislead the number of survivors.

When people are not present, they might be busy of extracting information & doing experiments with other 'bodies'.

And I looked it again. She said: "You are the only member of your crew that we were able to revive. We have thus far recovered fifty-seven others who were beyond the help of our medicine."

I wonder if that means, that some are still alive, but just don't wake up or react mentally their probing.
And perhaps one reason that hurry Alex out of ship, is that someone is waking up, so he need to be out of range of possible telepathy, which human wants to keep secret.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by GeoModder »

bunnyboy wrote:I wonder if that means, that some are still alive, but just don't wake up or react mentally their probing.
And perhaps one reason that hurry Alex out of ship, is that someone is waking up, so he need to be out of range of possible telepathy, which human wants to keep secret.
That would be a type of telepathy the Loroi are unfamiliar with though. IIRC, sleeping Loroi are still 'expressing' sanzai, noticable to their fellows.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

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Considering that our presense is "invisible" to Loroi, it is not far of to think, that we can also express ourself at undetected.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Mr.Tucker »

bunnyboy wrote:Considering that our presense is "invisible" to Loroi, it is not far of to think, that we can also express ourself at undetected.
I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you suggesting humans have some exotic form of telepathy that the Loroi don't? Or are you suggesting the Loroi may think we do ?Either way I'm skeptical. There are no other telepathic races known to us. The humans don't seem very special, apart from the fact that we're invisible to the only known psychic species (which I suspect may have something to do with the human template theory rather then any powers of our own). And I doubt the Loroi would immediately suspect us of being telepathic. It would be pretty unthinkable to them and they don't seem overly imaginative. Not to mention the potential diplomatic repercussions (lying to the official human ambassador before any formal contact is even made). Also they seem to value honesty at least.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Zakharra »

bunnyboy wrote:Since Arioch pointed out some clues how there is things happening on background, I started to think that they might have lied/mislead the number of survivors.

When people are not present, they might be busy of extracting information & doing experiments with other 'bodies'.

And I looked it again. She said: "You are the only member of your crew that we were able to revive. We have thus far recovered fifty-seven others who were beyond the help of our medicine."

I wonder if that means, that some are still alive, but just don't wake up or react mentally their probing.
And perhaps one reason that hurry Alex out of ship, is that someone is waking up, so he need to be out of range of possible telepathy, which human wants to keep secret.

I'd say that they were only able to recover 57 individuals (or enough parts to identify as being from one person) because the rest are either blown so far out they are unrecovered as of yet, trapped in portions of the ship the Loroi haven't gotten to yet (recovery/salvage operations were still going on when the bugs showed up. In the first chapter, it had likely only been maybe a day or two since the attack in the prolog), or blown to plasma/smeared all over the decks. The Bridge crew was probably vaporized, that was about what? 10 people or so? Others in engineering were probable vaporized when that place was blown to hell and others also killed. Given the nature and totality of the destruction of the ship, having even 1 survivor is doing very well.

Alex being moved is likely for security reasons. He's on a warship that is expecting to be engaged in battle sometime soon, so if they want to further diplomatic relations, necessity dictates he be removed from the ship and sent to a less militarily dangerous area. Not to mention they have much better facilities to examine him elsewhere, and if they do make diplomatic contact, treating the ambassador well is only smart politics.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

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What the loroi will never tell us. http://fav.me/d8fgsnu ;)
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

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bunnyboy wrote:What the loroi will never tell us. http://fav.me/d8fgsnu ;)

Hahhahaa.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by fredgiblet »

Siber wrote:Something that occurred to me about Alex's imprisonment is that those holding cells are probably intended to only ever house Loroi, and the training and procedures of the guards probably matches. From how sanzai is described to work, a Loroi put in that cell and never visited would be far less isolated than a human would be. Depending on the brig's location relative to the populated area of the ship, they may not be isolated from the day to day goings on at all, and could still hold private conversations with friends. It's still an obvious oversight if he was put in there by a diplomat, but someone who hasn't spent much time thinking about how other species live might not realize how harsh throwing him in there alone for a few days really is.
That's a good point Siber, though I doubt it's an oversight. Logic, and Arioch's previous post, makes it fairly clear that the problem is Stillstorm. I have little doubt that if Tempo was in control Alex would have ended up taking over the most junior single person cabin in the ship. He would have likely been guarded heavily, but given a much better place to stay.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Siber »

That's a good point Siber, though I doubt it's an oversight. Logic, and Arioch's previous post...
Yup. But I'm just saying that without that insight, or without Tempo there, I wouldn't be forced to assume malice, just a mix of callousness and ineptitude. With Tempo around, it becomes a lot more certain that it'd be deliberate.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by sunphoenix »

LOL! 'There are none so cruel as those who act first and think second.'
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Re: Is Outsider still an active project, or is it over?

Post by TrashMan »

sunphoenix wrote: The Umiak enslave all they meet so they can strip-mine their worlds for resources and force them to serve their expansionist policies only to pollute and devour everything in their path. It is likely the Umiak's policies which have forced the Loroi to adopt the 'No Neutral Civilizations' as if they don't... WHEN the Umiak discover any unalinged race they enslave them to feed the Umiak war-machine and expansion!
I don't recall the Umiak having a "no neutrality" policy. It was the Loroi that started that.
The Umiak are expansionist (like Loroi) and more industrial, but that they enslave all they meet?
I don't recall reading that about them.

Also, this isn't a war of total extermination - the UNION would cease to exist, but the Loroi as a species? Or others? I doubt that.

If both sides are doing the same thing, you cannot say the Loroi are not evil because "they were forced", while the Umiak are.

I don't believe, even for a second, that either side is so simple and on-dimensional.
The Loroi certain have the markings of a "good" side - physically attractive space elves, mostly female, loosing the war.
Umiak have the markings of the "evil" side - space bugs are not only repulsive visually, but they are almost always evil.

However, I don't think Arioch will go with something so simple. He has certainly proven he has the writing skill to give more depth to both sides.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by dragoongfa »

The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html

Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by sunphoenix »

Specifically...
dragoongfa wrote:The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html
The Umiak government is deeply bureaucratic and decentralized, and is socialist/communal, especially at the lower levels. The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets. The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact.
dragoongfa wrote:Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html
As the Loroi recaptured populated systems that had been previously lost to the Umiak, the worst of Loroi fears over the fates of those who had fallen under Umiak occupation were confirmed. For years, fierce and effective Loroi resistance had prevented the Umiak from making much use of the captured worlds; Teidar and Mizol could be devastating guerrilla fighters, and were nearly impossible to identify among the civilian Loroi population. After a few years of unsuccessful occupation, the Umiak concluded that pacification of the Loroi was impossible, and simply began extermination of the captive Loroi populations. Of the estimated 50 million civilian Loroi that had been trapped on Seren when it was lost to the Umiak six years earlier, fewer than 600,000 still remained alive on the planet when it was recaptured in 2145. The story was the same on every recaptured Loroi colony.

Following the recapture of Seren, thereafter the Loroi showed no mercy to any Umiak taken prisoner as the offensive pushed forward.


------

I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by dragoongfa »

sunphoenix wrote: I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!
I wouldn't call either the Loroi or Umiak mature, in the sense of non destructiveness at least, hell the way the Terran Colonial Authority manages to function while juggling the hundreds of human nations is far more mature than what the Loroi and Umiak are doing with their client species. Depending on how peaceful things have remained on Earth humanity may as well be the most peaceful and least destructive race out of all three and that's coming from someone who ascribes by the 'Humanity Fuck Yeah' trope.

First let's look at the Loroi:

Humans would have reacted differently to the Tithric situation, still violently sure but humanity wouldn't have exterminated a race that easily. From a pragmatic perceptive it would be far better to destroy all Tithric spaceports with proven Umiak shipping in them and 'confiscate' all Tithric goods that could be used to aid the Umiak, with a promise to repay the Tithric later. Of course this would stop if the Tithric would say that they are unable to 'police' their territory and thus they wouldn't 'interfere' with any and all fighting that happens in their territory unless their habitats were in peril.

The Charred steppes are a coin toss on terms of brutality, since both sides were responsible even if the Loroi started it, it's a 'smart' move in times of war but the destruction of so much life would never sit well with humans.

Beyond that the Loroi are very human like in their relations with their client races, nothing out of the ordinary and they act just like a human superpower does in its deals with weaker allies.

The Umiak on the other hand.

I don't consider them Sauron level of evil but they are certainly on the blacker side of grey in the morality compass. The enslavement and overtaxation of their 'allies' is simply death by strangulation, while the Loroi make sure to keep everyone below them they don't actually destroy their future prospects. What the Umiak are doing is just pillaging and destroying the future of those allies.

The way I see them they have a complete lack of empathy in regards to non Umiak species, imposing as much taxation as they can get not caring what the cost is for those that foot the bill.

Out of everyone involved the best choice would be for humanity to ally with the 3rd hidden party because the Loroi are barely restrained psychopaths and the Umiak are just uncaring taxmen.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Zakharra »

sunphoenix wrote:Specifically...
dragoongfa wrote:The Umiak have a non neutrality policy as well and they do enslave all weaker species in their domain, turning their planets into industrial wastelands and taxing them to the point of extinction. The Orgus refugees that reached Earth attested to this.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/hierarchy_races.html
The Umiak government is deeply bureaucratic and decentralized, and is socialist/communal, especially at the lower levels. The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets. The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact.
dragoongfa wrote:Considering what happened at the Loroi population of Seren, the war should be considered a war of extermination.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum ... story.html
As the Loroi recaptured populated systems that had been previously lost to the Umiak, the worst of Loroi fears over the fates of those who had fallen under Umiak occupation were confirmed. For years, fierce and effective Loroi resistance had prevented the Umiak from making much use of the captured worlds; Teidar and Mizol could be devastating guerrilla fighters, and were nearly impossible to identify among the civilian Loroi population. After a few years of unsuccessful occupation, the Umiak concluded that pacification of the Loroi was impossible, and simply began extermination of the captive Loroi populations. Of the estimated 50 million civilian Loroi that had been trapped on Seren when it was lost to the Umiak six years earlier, fewer than 600,000 still remained alive on the planet when it was recaptured in 2145. The story was the same on every recaptured Loroi colony.

Following the recapture of Seren, thereafter the Loroi showed no mercy to any Umiak taken prisoner as the offensive pushed forward.


------

I'm not calling the Umiak "Evil" or for that matter repulsive. I think the Loroi and the Umiak are both mature cultures that at the time did not understand the motivations and thought processes of each other and came to blows over resources. Happens all the time in Earth cultures.. but I DO think someone 'outside of the current picture' is manipulating situations to bring these two great cultures into conflict. I think the Loroi and the Umiak could learn much from each other. The Umiak learn tolerance and conservationism from the Loroi, and the Loroi could certainly learn humility in exchange!

Le gasp! O.O It's the Historians!

*yanks off tinfoil hat* Seriously though that is a plausible theory, but only plausible to a degree. The Loroi and Umiak cultures are too different and would have come into conflict sooner than later. it doesn't help that the Umiak pretty much see every other intelligent species as a rival to be subjected and brought under control. The information on the Umiak confirms that. They put everyone under their thumb. it's true that some have near full autonomy on their own internal governance, but only as long as they meet the production quotas. It's clear the Umiak don't give a damn if an environment is destroyed in the process as long as the resource extraction/production quotas are maintained. Any system that fails that, I think would soon see a Umiak fleet moving in to force the quotas to be met by any means necessary.

The Loroi might have been willing to leave the Umiak alone, but I don;t think the Umiak could ever leave anyone else alone. All will be under their sway or be dead.

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Re: Is Outsider still an active project, or is it over?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

TrashMan wrote:Umiak have the markings of the "evil" side - space bugs are not only repulsive visually, but they are almost always evil.
That was one of the interesting things about the Dancers from The Lost Fleet. Physically repulsive to humans (described as being 'like a spider mated with a wolf'), and yet they had an understanding of physical beauty, would never choose to start a war, and were friendly towards humanity.

Meanwhile, the Kicks (long for KC, which is short for 'Killer Cows') which essentially looked like cute little teddy bears with cow muzzles, were herd-animal herbivores... and were psychotically xenocidal. They crush all other life besides that which they keep as pets or grow for food, and breed until their population on a planet nears (I think) 50 billion. Their only form of entertainment is watching an army of themselves with shields and spears driving back and killing huge creatures and enemies.

Frankly, even having the Umiak not be a horde of unthinking locusts is subversive given the normal role of insectoids in sci-fi.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by TrashMan »

True, but treating even friends like dirt is the hallmark of evil. That is why I'm concerned with the Umiak.


I'm curious, if humans were to negotiate with Umiak, what kind of a deal could they pull off?
Could they avoid the harsh quotas?
Arioch?

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