The Loroi are Evil!

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Arioch
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Arioch »

discord wrote:On the lower levels they treat everyone as if they were Umiak(not very well at all.) and on the higher levels they simply do not allow non Umiak(so you have mostly control over ONE system? big whoppity do!) due to mostly reasonable trust issues would be my guess.
This is an important thing to consider in the Umiak treatment of their alien subjects; to compare it to the treatment of their own citizens. This is a race that uses its own people as cannon fodder and who are willing to literally work until they drop, and to run their own infrastructure at unsustainable levels (and who by all accounts ruined their own homeworld in this manner). Admittedly this is driven by their own paranoid monomania and need for security at all costs, but from the Umiak point of view, they are not asking anything of their subjects that they do not ask of their own people times ten. The Umiak know that their system is unsustainable, but "it's just until we can make our territory secure."

Which of course is not a practical possibility; there will always be some new threat, real or perceived. But I think you'd have a tough time convincing the Umiak of that.
discord wrote:Remember the fact that aliens are alien, Loroi however are closely enough related to humans that they are not alien enough(uncanny valley) and we apply human standards on non humans.
I think this is a good point, and I've had a similar observation: because the Loroi are more like us, we tend to judge them more harshly by our standards, whereas the more alien Umiak seem to be given more latitude. Many people seem suspicious of Loroi motives, but more willing to take the Umiak at face value. When I was writing the scene in which Stillstorm and Kikitik-27 interact, I was concerned that readers would find Kikitik's offer totally unbelievable; I was a bit surprised when the majority of those who commented seemed to believe Kikitik implicitly, some even to the point of judging Stillstorm to be "Stupid Evil" for not promptly surrendering to her mortal enemy based on his word alone.
TrashMan wrote:I'm curious, if humans were to negotiate with Umiak, what kind of a deal could they pull off? Could they avoid the harsh quotas?
I'm afraid there's no way I can answer that question. :D

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by cacambo43 »

Arioch wrote: I'm afraid there's no way I can answer that question. :D
No, no! Please do. Preferably in a multi-chapter, full color web comic! ;-)

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by RedDwarfIV »

NuclearIceCream wrote:
discord wrote:although the french for sheer bloody never give up might be close too without the over abundance of atrocities.
French are known for never giving up?
They may have a reputation for surrendering, but that doesn't mean it's well deserved.
Arioch wrote:I was concerned that readers would find Kikitik's offer totally unbelievable; I was a bit surprised when the majority of those who commented seemed to believe Kikitik implicitly, some even to the point of judging Stillstorm to be "Stupid Evil" for not promptly surrendering to her mortal enemy based on his word alone.
It confuses me, too. Preventing your enemy getting their hands (or claws?) on your or a friend's technology is incredibly important in war. In many sci-fi settings, it's why spacecraft have self-destruct devices (aside from just generally stopping people taking over a ship by boarding action.) Letting the Umiak get a good look at a potential ally's technology wouldn't have been an option, because it would allow the Umiak to develop technologies, strategies and tactics best suited to dealing with Terran spacecraft.

Protecting your technological edge (or just preventing the enemy gaining intel on you and your allies) is the sort of thing a lot of people could get sacrificed for, because if you lose that technological edge or allow the enemy to develop those countermeasures, you'll lose a lot more people in the long run.


So blowing up the Bellarmine and getting the hell out of Naam would be the most sensible option available.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I figured that the Umiak were playing Stillstorm, getting her to destroy the remains out of spite. The only thing that makes me think they were on the level is that I can't find any apparent advantage for them to have lied about their interest in the Bellarmine. (All that stuff about invading Loroi space, well, who knows about all that anyways.)

Edit: I suppose after analyzing the sensor data they got on the probing attack, the Umiak decided they wanted to destroy the remains without committing any more of their forces. Or if the Umiak already met another human scoutship, they will have just gotten sensor logs of the Loroi destroying a human vessel.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by discord »

icecream: the guy that surrendered france during ww2 was a good military commander that made the correct judgement 'this cant be won, if only they had given me this bloody position two-three weeks earlier then maybe, but now? nope we be screwed.' the soldiers.....holy shit the soldiers.

regarding the french soldiers evacuated during the miracle of dunkirk,
"The whole operation was very well-organized, and some were in Britain for less than twenty-four hours before returning by boat to Brest of Cherbourg where they were regrouped with the intention of continuing the fight against Germany. Having considered the organisational aspect of the operation, the study then moves on to the more personal considerations."
the surrender happens and those surrender monkey soldiers promptly turn guerrilla, the soldiers did not surrender.

it really is fascinating how the 'surrender monkey' meme has gotten so strong.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Razor One »

discord wrote:it really is fascinating how the 'surrender monkey' meme has gotten so strong.
There's a couple of things that have fed into that over time.

The first is the propensity for the USA to hate France on occasion. If England is the USA's mother, then France is it's father, and there's nothing cooler than hating your father as you grow up. :lol:

Facetiousness aside, it tends to roll in cycles. There are times the USA love France, and there are times it hates France. More recently, there was an upsurge of hatred since France did not immediately side with the USA on certain actions of global policies. This resulted in stuff like "Freedom Fries" and other obnoxious behaviour feeding into things. As time goes on, the hate will dissipate, and the US will return to loving France before they find a new excuse to hate on them. It's very much a tsundere relationship.

The other part of that is Star Trek.

You read that right. Captain Picard, especially in his early iterations, was characterised as a Frenchman despite speaking in a very british accent. He then went on to surrender to everything. Q. Klingons. Ferengi. Space mold. You name it. He surrendered so often in the first few seasons that it kind of fed right into a generation of sci fi fans. Combine that with the aforementioned upsurge of cyclical hatred for France, and you can see why it's so widespread.

There's other stuff too of course, like random occurrences where the USA bans a certain kind of French cheese, or an American tourist wonders why the French are so rude to them why they can't speak American... or they're in Paris and simply didn't know that Paris is a quarantine zone of rudeness. Also, Fox news' so called "No Go Zones", much to the amusement of the French. And anyone with a brain.

All in all, there's a large cultural milieu that feeds into anti-french sentiment that tends to cycle between love and hate over time, at which we're currently at the peak of hate or somewhat past it and on the decline as far as I can tell.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Star Trek? Really? I doubt that the majority of Americans would even be able to distinguish between Kirk and Picard if one were to ask them, let alone be able to say anything about his personal characteristics. At its peak in 1994, TNG had an estimated 11.5 million viewers. That is less than 4% of the total US population. (And I won't even begin to go into how many of those viewers considered surrendering to be a notable trait.)

I would suggest that the main driving force involved in deprecating other countries is nationalism. And usually the other countries that get deprecated are also very nationalistic. It is like some kind of sports fan mentality. "How dare they think they are better than us? We are better than them!" It is worrisome when the Chinese and the Russians have an upswing in nationalism, and I personally find it worrisome when my own country does the same, as there is a distinct possibility that a lot of people will die.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote:
discord wrote:On the lower levels they treat everyone as if they were Umiak(not very well at all.) and on the higher levels they simply do not allow non Umiak(so you have mostly control over ONE system? big whoppity do!) due to mostly reasonable trust issues would be my guess.
This is an important thing to consider in the Umiak treatment of their alien subjects; to compare it to the treatment of their own citizens. This is a race that uses its own people as cannon fodder and who are willing to literally work until they drop, and to run their own infrastructure at unsustainable levels (and who by all accounts ruined their own homeworld in this manner). Admittedly this is driven by their own paranoid monomania and need for security at all costs, but from the Umiak point of view, they are not asking anything of their subjects that they do not ask of their own people times ten. The Umiak know that their system is unsustainable, but "it's just until we can make our territory secure."

Which of course is not a practical possibility; there will always be some new threat, real or perceived. But I think you'd have a tough time convincing the Umiak of that.
On the one hand this is understandable but on the other hand the only logical way to avoid having your resources, culture, habitat and future prospects be destroyed in the monomaniacal pursuit for 'security' is by fighting the Umiak tooth and nail until they stop because frankly any species that deals with them is fucked to the point of extinction even if the Umiak achieve a complete victory in their war with the Loroi.

Let's admit it, when they are done with the Loroi what is going to happen next? Will they suddenly feel secure or will they slowly turn to whatever other 'threats' there are no matter if they helped them against the Loroi?

I can picture it already:

'Thank you for your help humanity, we wouldn't be able to stop the Loroi without you but now that we have learned your violent tendencies we think that we cannot trust you not to attack us in the future.'

'But you have tens of thousands of ships and billions of soldiers!'

'Yeah but you are violent'

'But...'

'Kill all humans.'

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Arioch »

This idea that Umiak taxation is driving their client races to extinction is something you guys made up.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Razor One »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Star Trek? Really? I doubt that the majority of Americans would even be able to distinguish between Kirk and Picard if one were to ask them, let alone be able to say anything about his personal characteristics. At its peak in 1994, TNG had an estimated 11.5 million viewers. That is less than 4% of the total US population. (And I won't even begin to go into how many of those viewers considered surrendering to be a notable trait.)

I would suggest that the main driving force involved in deprecating other countries is nationalism. And usually the other countries that get deprecated are also very nationalistic. It is like some kind of sports fan mentality. "How dare they think they are better than us? We are better than them!" It is worrisome when the Chinese and the Russians have an upswing in nationalism, and I personally find it worrisome when my own country does the same, as there is a distinct possibility that a lot of people will die.
I think your numbers are incredibly understated, given that TNG's average viewership was around 20 million and it premiered at 27 million for its pilot. Follow that up with 20 years of syndication and cultural osmosis, countless reruns, DVD sales and so on, and I do think that a majority, if not a plurality at the very least, of people would be able to recognise the difference between Kirk and Picard. :P

Nationalism certainly plays a part, a huge part, possibly is even the main driving force, but cultural factors play a role too. Star Trek was a single example. Have you ever heard the joke "French Rifle, never fired, only dropped once"? :P
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Arioch »

I'm a huge Star Trek fan, as you might imagine, and though I'm aware that Picard is supposed to be French, I think of him as being English (for what are probably obvious reasons). And I don't think of him as someone who surrenders.

The love/hate relationship between the Americans and the French has its roots in the love/hate relationship between the English and the French; it goes back a thousand years, and it goes both ways. Colonial America was at war with the French before they were allies, and then almost at war with them again shortly after independence (when England and France were at war again, and both pissed at our neutrality). Our thanks for bailing France out of two world wars was a complete lack of support in the following Cold War. The French don't like the way we throw our weight around, and we don't like the way there always seems to be a French hand on the dagger in our back. There will always be some tension there... family relations tend to be the most difficult.

But it's really got nothing to do with Star Trek.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by halftea »

Arioch wrote: And I don't think of him (Picard) as someone who surrenders.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think his speech where he refuses to retreat in the face of the Borg incursion helps cement that for me.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I'm a Star Trek fan myself, but it is still a niche sort of thing. I couldn't tell you the names of more than one or two of the characters in M*A*S*H, Cheers, or Friends, which are easily the most highly watched shows that have aired since I was born.

Countries are big, complex things with lots of different people making decisions about lots of different things. They're bound to have conflicting interests some of the times. Usually it is little things, but when they start disagreeing on big things, that is usually when the insults start cropping up. The specific nature of the insults is really irrelevant to the conflict at large, it is usually just the low hanging fruit. "They don't agree with policy X, so therefore, they smell bad."

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote:This idea that Umiak taxation is driving their client races to extinction is something you guys made up.
I admit that extinction is a heavy word but taxation on the point of physical limitation without any regards to societal and environmental damages weakens the taxed races beyond the point of stagnation.

Taking humanity as an example and putting us into such a position what would be the outcome?

Economic recession, widespread environmental destruction that turns our habitats unlivable, population reduction and societal collapse. All of this happening in a highly competitive geopolitical environment is similar to geopolitical suicide because all of the above would be weakening humanity as whole while strengthening the one that taxed us to this point.

Let's admit it, all of the client species of the Umiak don't have anything good to look forward to, they would be sucked dry until their planets have nothing valuable left to give, leaving those species with nothing.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Philly »

I'm inclined to think that the Loroi are evil as well as the Umiak, but only by their actions. Genocide of a sentient race or those with potential to become sentient is genocide, plain and simple. No morality adjustments are needed.

The Loroi view themselves as high and mighty because of their telepathic and telekinetic gifts among other things which probably leads them to think they can just do this whenever they run into problems with races that want to remain neutral. The introduction of Alex will, hopefully, will knock them down a peg or two, but considering Humanity in general is the Yamcha for this universe I severely doubt he'll make many contributions.

The Umiak strip worlds of resources and in the process destroy the environment thus killing the planets they occupy in addition to their own acts of race extermination. They're basically slitting their own wrists.

Until I see something that is to the contrary to my opinions this will remain unchanged.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Kava »

Arioch wrote:When I was writing the scene in which Stillstorm and Kikitik-27 interact, I was concerned that readers would find Kikitik's offer totally unbelievable; I was a bit surprised when the majority of those who commented seemed to believe Kikitik implicitly, some even to the point of judging Stillstorm to be "Stupid Evil" for not promptly surrendering to her mortal enemy based on his word alone.
He kept saying that negotiation was unusual but there was nothing to lose from trying, so my impression was that his offer wasn't a real concession. Either he wasn't going to bother destroying Stillstorm's fleet anyway or he didn't plan on honoring his agreement. That was my impression, anyway!

So, what Stillstorm did made sense. Besides, accepting a deal like that might be considered treason, so uh, I'd definitely do what she did.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by GeoModder »

Kava wrote:So, what Stillstorm did made sense. Besides, accepting a deal like that might be considered treason, so uh, I'd definitely do what she did.
There is that.
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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by fredgiblet »

Philly wrote:I'm inclined to think that the Loroi are evil as well as the Umiak, but only by their actions. Genocide of a sentient race or those with potential to become sentient is genocide, plain and simple. No morality adjustments are needed.
Putting the survival of your species over the survival of another species requires no morality adjustment? I disagree. The survival of your own species should take top priority over everything, the only thing that would come close would be the survival of a close ally.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by dragoongfa »

fredgiblet wrote:
Philly wrote:I'm inclined to think that the Loroi are evil as well as the Umiak, but only by their actions. Genocide of a sentient race or those with potential to become sentient is genocide, plain and simple. No morality adjustments are needed.
Putting the survival of your species over the survival of another species requires no morality adjustment? I disagree. The survival of your own species should take top priority over everything, the only thing that would come close would be the survival of a close ally.
Technically true but exhibiting a total disregard to the survival of other species and generally making the life a living hell for the species under you is like painting a HUGE target on your back. Traditionally all conquering empires who treated their subordinates like shit faced a unified coalition against them at one point or an other.

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Re: The Loroi are Evil!

Post by Philly »

fredgiblet wrote:
Philly wrote:I'm inclined to think that the Loroi are evil as well as the Umiak, but only by their actions. Genocide of a sentient race or those with potential to become sentient is genocide, plain and simple. No morality adjustments are needed.
Putting the survival of your species over the survival of another species requires no morality adjustment? I disagree. The survival of your own species should take top priority over everything, the only thing that would come close would be the survival of a close ally.
Oh, so you find it acceptable to slaughter innocent men, women, and children of another race? Committing genocide means KILLING EVERYONE regardless of age, sex, or anything else. There are no exceptions. Any race that commits such an act for whatever reason is utterly monstrous and deserves to be sent back to the Stone Age, no matter how many times it takes, till they learn the value of life.

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