The Loroi are Evil!

[Grayhome]

NuclearIceCream wrote:
I guess everyone is a Beryl fan huh?




Let's see:
- young
- smart
- beautiful
- cheerful personality
- xenophile


What's not to like?

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.
-part of a death worshiping society of stone age xenocidal maniacs who are only out in space due to scavenging through the garbage of a dead civilization. Wouldn't have lasted past the nuclear age without said garbage. Probably wouldn't have even reached that.
-believes in mind raping people into drooling submission (see Golim), considers this state of mind "loyalty", "friendship" and the highest possible honor bestowable upon non-Loroi (and probably Loroi as well who disagree with the state).
-is quite obviously a member of a race of biological androids created for slavery and food, which were created artificially, transported artificially to three different worlds, developed in three different biospheres, all of which featured non-native technology/flora/fauna, calls her race "naturally occurring". Demonstrates such a complete lack of even the most basic understanding of biological evolution and engineering she might as well be from a stone age society. Such an astoundingly ignorant creature is unworthy of holding a laser pistol.
-her bio-roid species has numerous genetic augmentations which make any and all fights they get into with a non-augmented species trivial, forgone conclusions. Complete and total systematic slaughters entirely in the favor of the Loroi, she thinks this makes them "the perfect warrior race". (ie; endless fatigue, extended lifespan, longevity, resilience to disease, easy pregnancy, fast maturation, reduced consumption, telepathy, psychokinetics, etc.)
-Said augmentation also results in mental instability caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. All Loroi who we have been given GURPS spreadsheets for have mental quirks which would have automatically disqualified them from military service. She is no exception to this (fear of tight, enclosed spaces which she cannot easily escape from). A fate which (in association with the rest of Tempest's crew) she has subjected Alex to continuously since his initial capture, not to mention his mental and physical torture, poisoning, and telepathically raping him while he slept, preventing him from entering REM sleep.
-has therefore committed crimes against humanity which go past an act of war and straight to war crimes. The Loroi anti-neutrality policy can be seen as a unilateral declaration of war under current international law.

I reiterate my awe at which Arioch has created an entire civilization of creatures which are entirely unlikable in any way, shape or form. I literally cannot find anything even remotely redeemable or likable about what Arioch has revealed to us about the Loroi as a species. A society to which extermination itself would be an improvement upon the quality of life they currently endure. If the Loroi looked like this:



or this:

There is not a single one of you who would have any other reaction than KILL IT WITH FIRE.

[cacambo43]

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.

Once again I feel like I've missed something in the Insider pages. Where is this?

CJSF

[Grayhome]

Pages 18-29 cacambo43

[RedDwarfIV]

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.

Once again I feel like I've missed something in the Insider pages. Where is this?

CJSF

Not sure where the 'child' part comes from, but I think he was referring to Alex.


In any case, I'd like to refer Grayhome to the Alliance from the Lost Fleet series for an example of a spacefaring power that regularly commits crimes against humanity yet is still sympathetic. See, the trick is... they're better than the alternative. Every time there was an escalation in atrocity-committing during their hundred-year-war with the Syndicate Worlds, it was the Syndicate that initiated it. And it's reached the point where bombing fully-developed Earth-like planets into uninhabitability has become commonplace. However, the Alliance is sympathetic because it's still a democracy, it still allows all its citizens their freedoms, and they didn't start the unwinnable war in the first place. The Syndicate, meanwhile, are effectively a collection of authoritarian dictatorship police states. The Syndicate Mobile Forces only have people to crew their spacecraft because those crews want to protect their homes and families. No loyalty to the state whatsoever, because the state's never given them anything.

Plus, when given a good guide, the Alliance Fleet was able to go back to pre-war ethics. Near the end of the series, one of the main characters can't even imagine wanting to bomb civilian targets anymore. When given the opportunity to do better, a sympathetic one will take it.


I happen to think that an alliance with the Loroi is better than the alternative - subjugation to the Umiak.


Also, I think both the Loroi and the Alliance Fleet fall under this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dIsNotNice

[Grayhome]

I happen to think that an alliance with the Loroi is better than the alternative - subjugation to the Umiak.

There would be no alliance. Telepathic mind raping space elves would gather as much human bio material as they needed to discover a way around human resistance to telepathy and then mind rape a few leaders into drooling, mindless obedience- are we reading the same story here? Do you truly not see what the Loroi, as a species, are? What they represent? It's a telepathic race of Nazis RedDwarfIV, that have racial purity myths and pseudoscience nonsense drilled into them telepathically since before they can walk.

The Loroi have no allies RedDwarfIV they have slaves and they have enemies that for the moment have decided not to kill each other, mostly due to external circumstances.

I would consider forming an alliance with the Loroi on the following terms
1: The Loroi recognize that the condition of the Golim, as a species, is the product of a artificially induced genetic augmentation (Slave Mentality and 5 levels of Weak Will according to GURPS) by science, most likely through a virus administered to their atmosphere by persons hereto unknown. They will acknoeledge that this is therefore, neither friendship, or loyalty.
2: The Loroi immediately cede all Golim territory, and make reparations for the generations of enslavement that they have the absolute audacity of calling "loyalty" and "friendship". These reparations shall take the form of material and money, which will be used to de-augment the Golim.
3: The Loroi will never. Ever. For any reason whatsoever. Use any form of Telepathy, Psychokinetics, or any other pychic ability on a human being. Ever. The Loroi use these abilities almost exclusively for murder, and their own selfish gain. Those trained in their usage have been demonstrated to be mentally unstable, if not criminally insane. They are therefore not fit in any way, shape or form to be anywhere NEAR an individual from a neutral power, let alone an Ambassador.

The Loroi can telepathically hack and reprogram the minds of sentient life forms from a DISTANCE. The third term should not even be listed, if the Loroi had even the slightest interest in peaceful and honest relations with non-Loroi they would not have them anywhere NEAR aliens, just to avoid the accusation of mental tampering to receive a favorable trade treaty or territorial settlement. Nothing less than this would even remotely suffice I would not trust myself or ANYONE ELSE who had been anywhere NEAR a Loroi with a psi-amp on their head. Ambassadors are expensive to find and train, to send any to the Loroi would be to send them to a fate worse than death.

Alexander Jardin has been created as being around 20 years of age. In many societies that is the legal definition of adulthood, but in many he is also considered to be a child. He is an extraordinarily courageous and resilient boy, I have read numerous examples of combat veteran soldiers who have had mental breakdowns under half the stress. One wonders what keeps him going, I look forward to reading about his life as he undergoes more torture and horror at the hands of his remorseless, stereotypically wicked captors.

Also, I think both the Loroi and the Alliance Fleet fall under this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dIsNotNice

Sir you are defending the indefensible. The Loroi has already been classified by tvtropes as Stupid Evil, the situation between the Loroi/Umiak has been classified as grey/black morality. Which side is which is open for debate. The "Good is Not Nice" definition does not even remotely apply to the Loroi. Humanity in this story is not interested in who the good guy or bad guy is in this story, their only interest is who is going to win the war.

[cacambo43]

1. I can't see in any practical way that Alex is a "child," but I understand what you were trying to say there.
2. I thought Arioch has stated a few times here that there's nothing really relevant about human controlled space to the Umiak/Loroi conflict.
3. I think neither "side" seems desirable, so I have to agree that Humanity is really just trying to figure out who will win. I don't necessarily agree with Alex's reasons for siding with the Loroi.

I don't know about your interpretation of Beryl not doing anything while Alex was tortured. It's been clear, at least in the way Arioch draws, that there's some significant disagreement as to how Alex has been treated, but it may be she CAN'T do anything about it (at least up to now). It would be clear to all the Loroi how she (or anyone else) feels about it, but if she "stood up" for him or tired to intervene, it wouldn't be likely she could do any good, and would likely get punished or even injured if she did.

But this is really speculation, as ARIOCH HASN'T DRAWN OR WRITTEN ANYTHING IN FOREVER!!!

CJSF

[NuclearIceCream]

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.

Once again I feel like I've missed something in the Insider pages. Where is this?

CJSF

I think he was referring to Alex. Though I don't think they know why they should consider him valuable just yet. He is also an ambassador by circumstance, the captain should have been but isn't for obvious reasons.

[Grayhome]

2. I thought Arioch has stated a few times here that there's nothing really relevant about human controlled space to the Umiak/Loroi conflict.

Well in that respect I draw upon the intelligence and fair mindedness of the rest of the Forum. Has Arioch not stated, repeatedly and forcefully that the entire reason that Humanity has expended hundreds of billions of credits in money, resources and manpower is due entirely to the fact that both alien powers are expanding rapidly towards human space and it is only a matter of years until they contact humanity? Has the author not made this explicitly clear on numerous occasions in not only the comic itself but in the Insider sections but also the Forums?

3. I think neither "side" seems desirable, so I have to agree that Humanity is really just trying to figure out who will win. I don't necessarily agree with Alex's reasons for siding with the Loroi.

As to the first half of your comment I have made that point in my above comments and I thank you for agreeing with me. As to the second you would be an unimaginably naive and gullible fool to disregard the Loroi as a threat, knowing what we the audience knows of them, simply because they have breasts and a pretty face.

I don't know about your interpretation of Beryl not doing anything while Alex was tortured. It's been clear, at least in the way Arioch draws, that there's some significant disagreement as to how Alex has been treated, but it may be she CAN'T do anything about it (at least up to now).

The reason that is not an acceptable comment is because the moment they gave him ambassadorial status on behalf of the human species they threw him right back into isolation. In a prison cell. Like an animal. Even prisoners of war are entitled to better respect under international law than what Alex has gone through, let alone ambassadors. That the Loroi have treated him in this way can be seen as a thinly veiled assassination attempt to deliberately sabotage relations between Humanity and the Loroi, as an excuse to claim that Humanity is balking at negotiations and launch an invasion of Human territory.

It would be clear to all the Loroi how she (or anyone else) feels about it, but if she "stood up" for him or tired to intervene, it wouldn't be likely she could do any good, and would likely get punished or even injured if she did.

The same could be said of many members of Germany's military during the extermination of Jews, political undesirables, poor, etc. What is your point? To me this makes the Loroi even more detestable that their soldiers are, at every moment, in fear of their life if they disobey or talk back in regards to a superior's orders.

[Grayhome]

Though I don't think they know why they should consider him valuable just yet.

He is an ambassador.

To a Neutral Power.

Which occupies strategically vital territory.

Which will turn the tide.

In the current war.

That the Loroi have been so far, unable or unwilling to walk down the hall, have a nice little chat with Alex, and determine this basic.
Obvious.
Fact.
Makes their incompetence incredibly plain to me.

[Suederwind]

She is no exception to this (fear of tight, enclosed spaces which she cannot easily escape from).

Grayhome, the last time I checked, one of the disadvantages was "Agoraphobia". I am not sure if Arioch has changed that, but to quote Dr. Wiki here:

Agoraphobia is an anxiety disorder characterized by anxiety in situations where the sufferer perceives certain environments as dangerous or uncomfortable, often due to the environment's vast openness or crowdedness. These situations include wide-open spaces, as well as uncontrollable social situations such as the possibility of being met in shopping malls, airports and on bridges.

What you descrieb is called "Claustrophobia".

But enough nitpicking.
Here are my two cents on that whole topic who should be drawn next: Honestly, I don't care. Anything would be nice.

[Arioch]

I reiterate my awe at which Arioch has created an entire civilization of creatures which are entirely unlikable in any way, shape or form. I literally cannot find anything even remotely redeemable or likable about what Arioch has revealed to us about the Loroi as a species. A society to which extermination itself would be an improvement upon the quality of life they currently endure. If the Loroi looked like this: [images of Mind Flayers and Brain Bugs] There is not a single one of you who would have any other reaction than KILL IT WITH FIRE.

The Loroi are certainly intended to be a martial society that doesn't share many of our values to begin with, and who are in a desperate position in a genocidal war which they are in danger of losing. They are meant to seem extreme, as are the Umiak, and that's part of what drives the story. What constitutes good and evil is highly subjective and subject to debate, and if you believe that the Loroi are evil, that's a valid point of view. However, I feel you're putting a somewhat stilted spin on things, along with some unfounded speculation and outright distortion of the "facts". It's not my intention to dismiss or discount your views, but let me offer an alternate spin.

For starters, I don't think it's fair to equate telepathic interrogation with examples in which the subject's brain is literally sucked out of his skull, killing him. The interrogation of Alex, however unpleasant or morally repugnant, did not permanently harm him.

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.

Alex is older than Beryl, so I'm not sure why she would be expected to regard him as a child. She apologized to Alex for his treatment and asserted that there was nothing she could do to prevent it. Even if we are predisposed to disbelieve her, it's not clear what one might expect Beryl to have done, since she was not present at the time of the interrogation, and had been sent out of the room by the highest ranking officer on the ship. What was done to Alex could certainly be characterized as torture, but I think recent events here on Earth have shown that a society does not have to be either monstrous or fascist to resort to such practices in time of crisis.

-part of a death worshiping society of stone age xenocidal maniacs who are only out in space due to scavenging through the garbage of a dead civilization.

In what respect do the Loroi worship death?

-believes in mind raping people into drooling submission (see Golim), considers this state of mind "loyalty", "friendship" and the highest possible honor bestowable upon non-Loroi (and probably Loroi as well who disagree with the state).

I don't see any evidence for this. The issue of Golim susceptibility to telepathy is accidental, and the Loroi were sufficiently concerned about it to set up rules that would allow some Golim to live outside of Loroi influence. It is the Golim who consider the state of mesmerization to be beneficial, not the Loroi. Even if it were true that the Golim susceptibility was somehow engineered by the long-ago Loroi ancestors (which is by no means demonstrated), I don't see how the Loroi of today would be in any way culpable for this.

-is quite obviously a member of a race of biological androids created for slavery and food, which were created artificially, transported artificially to three different worlds, developed in three different biospheres, all of which featured non-native technology/flora/fauna, calls her race "naturally occurring". Demonstrates such a complete lack of even the most basic understanding of biological evolution and engineering she might as well be from a stone age society. Such an astoundingly ignorant creature is unworthy of holding a laser pistol.

Beryl never claimed that the Loroi are "naturally occurring." She described the Loroi reproductive advantage as a "basic adaptation for a warrior species." Since the warrior species that she knows of -- the Loroi, Barsam, Delrias and Umiak -- all have similar adaptations, I don't see this assertion as particularly remarkable.

-her bio-roid species has numerous genetic augmentations which make any and all fights they get into with a non-augmented species trivial, forgone conclusions. Complete and total systematic slaughters entirely in the favor of the Loroi, she thinks this makes them "the perfect warrior race". (ie; endless fatigue, extended lifespan, longevity, resilience to disease, easy pregnancy, fast maturation, reduced consumption, telepathy, psychokinetics, etc.)

I'm not sure how the supposed fact of her race's engineered origin is something to be held against Beryl personally. As far as I'm aware, Beryl has never said anything to indicate that she believes that Loroi are "perfect."

-Said augmentation also results in mental instability caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. All Loroi who we have been given GURPS spreadsheets for have mental quirks which would have automatically disqualified them from military service. She is no exception to this (fear of tight, enclosed spaces which she cannot easily escape from).

In general, the quirks and disadvantages of the Loroi characters are due to their harsh experiences of being born into a world of total warfare (or, for the older Loroi, having to adapt to such a world), and have nothing to do with their supposed genetic adaptations. Specifically, Beryl has a mild agoraphobia (which is the fear of open spaces, not the fear of confined spaces), resulting from traumatic experiences in her child-band in the open deserts of Mezan, and in no way interferes with her ability to do her job aboard a starship. I would think the fact that the Loroi characters can be emotionally scarred by trauma would be seen as evidence of their humanity, rather than evidence of their monstrosity.

Which of Tempo's quirks do you feel would disqualify her for military service?

A fate which (in association with the rest of Tempest's crew) she has subjected Alex to continuously since his initial capture, not to mention his mental and physical torture, poisoning, and telepathically raping him while he slept, preventing him from entering REM sleep.

The assertion that Alex was deliberately poisoned or sleep-deprived is, as far as I can tell, without foundation in the comic.

There would be no alliance. Telepathic mind raping space elves would gather as much human bio material as they needed to discover a way around human resistance to telepathy and then mind rape a few leaders into drooling, mindless obedience- are we reading the same story here?

I'm not sure that you're reading the same story that I'm writing. It seems that you're offended as much by your own speculation (most of which is incorrect, as it happens) as by what appears on the page.

But this is really speculation, as ARIOCH HASN'T DRAWN OR WRITTEN ANYTHING IN FOREVER!!!

I'll take my share of the blame for lack of content that encourages wild speculation... nature and psychology both abhor a vacuum. Updates should resume with the new year, and fill some of that vacuum. One of the things that I hope will become more clear is that the Loroi are individual characters, and not of one heart or one mind about anything.

I would consider forming an alliance with the Loroi on the following terms
1: The Loroi recognize that the condition of the Golim, as a species, is the product of a artificially induced genetic augmentation (Slave Mentality and 5 levels of Weak Will according to GURPS) by science, most likely through a virus administered to their atmosphere by persons hereto unknown. They will acknoeledge that this is therefore, neither friendship, or loyalty.
2: The Loroi immediately cede all Golim territory, and make reparations for the generations of enslavement that they have the absolute audacity of calling "loyalty" and "friendship". These reparations shall take the form of material and money, which will be used to de-augment the Golim.
3: The Loroi will never. Ever. For any reason whatsoever. Use any form of Telepathy, Psychokinetics, or any other pychic ability on a human being. Ever. The Loroi use these abilities almost exclusively for murder, and their own selfish gain. Those trained in their usage have been demonstrated to be mentally unstable, if not criminally insane. They are therefore not fit in any way, shape or form to be anywhere NEAR an individual from a neutral power, let alone an Ambassador.

While the circumstances of any such negotiation are hypothetical at this point, it's difficult to imagine a situation in which Humanity would be in any position to make such demands. Assuming that Humanity has something that either side wants, there is likely very little that Humanity could do to stop them from taking it by force.

edit: Anyway, how would the Human negotiators even know that the Golim exist?

He is an ambassador.
To a Neutral Power.
Which occupies strategically vital territory.
Which will turn the tide.
In the current war.

Assuming for the moment that this is true, how would the Loroi commander who has been making the decisions regarding Alex be expected to know this? How would Alex even know it?

That the Loroi have been so far, unable or unwilling to walk down the hall, have a nice little chat with Alex, and determine this basic.
Obvious.
Fact.
Makes their incompetence incredibly plain to me.

Especially given the suspicious circumstances surrounding Alex's sudden appearance, why does it seem unreasonable that the Loroi commander might doubt the truth of what he has to say? Has there never been a Human commander who took actions that were stubborn, short-sighted, or colored by his prejudices? Is that the same thing as stupidity or incompetence? Is the entire Human race stupid and incompetent because of the actions of a single commander?

[icekatze]

hi hi

The human preference for things that look appealing is pretty strong, but it is not limitless. People can become accustomed and familiarized with a lot of different things that might be frightening to others. Take gunfire for example. If you started firing a gun around someone who has never seen one before, they would likely be quite frightened, but someone who has a lot of experience with them might find it exhilarating.

Big cats are some of my favorite animals, just look at my screen name. However, if I found myself staring down a snow leopard in the wild, I would absolutely be on edge and my fight or flight response would have me primed to act to defend myself.

If I found myself face to face with an alien species for the first time ever, I think I would be pretty wary regardless of how they looked. If they demonstrated that they were capable of speech and reason, and were actively trying to engage me in discussion, rather than vivisect me, I might try establishing a dialogue. Even if they looked like horrible spider monsters.

The real advantage that Alex has is not that he looks similar, but that he can intuitively grasp their emotional cues.

[Nemo]

That the Loroi have been so far, unable or unwilling to walk down the hall, have a nice little chat with Alex, and determine this basic.
Obvious.
Fact.
Makes their incompetence incredibly plain to me.

The very act of talking is the embodiment of deception, from the Loroi point of view. Its what you do when you intend to deceive. It takes training and experience to over come that cultural perception. Which is why there is a specialized diplomatic corps with stations even on front line war fleets. And what could he tell them that could be verified? What reason would they have to trust the veracity of his claims?

Has there never been a Human commander who took actions that were stubborn, short-sighted, or colored by his prejudices? Is that the same thing as stupidity or incompetence?

Where is, repeat, where is Task Force 34? The world wonders.

Halsey made any number of errors that in a modern media environment would have seen him sacked. Steering his fleet into not one but two hurricanes if memory serves. The Taffy affair. etc. These things didn't just happen, they happened because of choices he made based on how he viewed the world.

[sunphoenix]

I reiterate my awe at which Arioch has created an entire civilization of creatures which are entirely unlikable in any way, shape or form. I literally cannot find anything even remotely redeemable or likable about what Arioch has revealed to us about the Loroi as a species. A society to which extermination itself would be an improvement upon the quality of life they currently endure. If the Loroi looked like this: [images of Mind Flayers and Brain Bugs] There is not a single one of you who would have any other reaction than KILL IT WITH FIRE.

The Loroi are certainly intended to be martial society that doesn't share many of our values to begin with, and who are in a desperate position in a genocidal war which they are in danger of losing. They are meant to seem extreme, as are the Umiak, and that's part of what drives the story. What constitutes good and evil is highly subjective and subject to debate, and if you believe that the Loroi are evil, that's a valid point of view. However, I feel you're putting a somewhat stilted spin on things, along with some unfounded speculation and outright distortion of the "facts". It's not my intention to dismiss or discount your views, but let me offer an alternate spin.

For starters, I don't think it's fair to equate telepathic interrogation with examples in which the subject's brain is literally sucked out of his skull, killing him. The interrogation of Alex, however unpleasant or morally repugnant, did not permanently harm him.

-stood by and did nothing while an innocent child was tortured, mentally and physically. Child turns out is an ambassador to a race which possesses territory vital to the current war. Whoops.

Alex is older than Beryl, so I'm not sure why she would be expected to regard him as a child. She apologized to Alex for his treatment and asserted that there was nothing she could do to prevent it. Even if we are predisposed to disbelieve her, it's not clear what one might expect Beryl to have done, since she was not present at the time of the interrogation, and had been sent out of the room by the highest ranking officer on the ship. What was done to Alex could certainly be characterized as torture, but I think recent events here on Earth have shown that a society does not have to be either monstrous or fascist to resort to such practices in time of crisis.

-part of a death worshiping society of stone age xenocidal maniacs who are only out in space due to scavenging through the garbage of a dead civilization.

In what respect do the Loroi worship death?

-believes in mind raping people into drooling submission (see Golim), considers this state of mind "loyalty", "friendship" and the highest possible honor bestowable upon non-Loroi (and probably Loroi as well who disagree with the state).

I don't see any evidence for this. The issue of Golim susceptibility to telepathy is accidental, and the Loroi were sufficiently concerned about it to set up rules that would allow some Golim to live outside of Loroi influence. It is the Golim who consider the state of mesmerization to be beneficial, not the Loroi. Even if it were true that the Golim susceptibility was somehow engineered by the long-ago Loroi ancestors (which is by no means demonstrated), I don't see how the Loroi of today would be in any way culpable for this.

-is quite obviously a member of a race of biological androids created for slavery and food, which were created artificially, transported artificially to three different worlds, developed in three different biospheres, all of which featured non-native technology/flora/fauna, calls her race "naturally occurring". Demonstrates such a complete lack of even the most basic understanding of biological evolution and engineering she might as well be from a stone age society. Such an astoundingly ignorant creature is unworthy of holding a laser pistol.

Beryl never claimed that the Loroi are "naturally occurring." She described the Loroi reproductive advantage as a "basic adaptation for a warrior species." Since the warrior species that she knows of -- the Loroi, Barsam, Delrias and Umiak -- all have similar adaptations, I don't see this assertion as particularly remarkable.

-her bio-roid species has numerous genetic augmentations which make any and all fights they get into with a non-augmented species trivial, forgone conclusions. Complete and total systematic slaughters entirely in the favor of the Loroi, she thinks this makes them "the perfect warrior race". (ie; endless fatigue, extended lifespan, longevity, resilience to disease, easy pregnancy, fast maturation, reduced consumption, telepathy, psychokinetics, etc.)

I'm not sure how the supposed fact of her race's engineered origin is something to be held against Beryl personally. As far as I'm aware, Beryl has never said anything to indicate that she believes that Loroi are "perfect."

-Said augmentation also results in mental instability caused by chemical imbalances in the brain. All Loroi who we have been given GURPS spreadsheets for have mental quirks which would have automatically disqualified them from military service. She is no exception to this (fear of tight, enclosed spaces which she cannot easily escape from).

In general, the quirks and disadvantages of the Loroi characters are due to their harsh experiences of being born into a world of total warfare (or, for the older Loroi, having to adapt to such a world), and have nothing to do with their supposed genetic adaptations. Specifically, Beryl has a mild agoraphobia (which is the fear of open spaces, not the fear of confined spaces), resulting from traumatic experiences in her child-band in the open deserts of Mezan, and in no way interferes with her ability to do her job aboard a starship. I would think the fact that the Loroi characters can be emotionally scarred by trauma would be seen as evidence of their humanity, rather than evidence of their monstrosity.

Which of Tempo's quirks do you feel would disqualify her for military service?

A fate which (in association with the rest of Tempest's crew) she has subjected Alex to continuously since his initial capture, not to mention his mental and physical torture, poisoning, and telepathically raping him while he slept, preventing him from entering REM sleep.

The assertion that Alex was deliberately poisoned or sleep-deprived is, as far as I can tell, without foundation in the comic.

There would be no alliance. Telepathic mind raping space elves would gather as much human bio material as they needed to discover a way around human resistance to telepathy and then mind rape a few leaders into drooling, mindless obedience- are we reading the same story here?

I'm not sure that you're reading the same story that I'm writing. It seems that you're offended as much by your own speculation (most of which is incorrect, as it happens) as by what appears on the page.

But this is really speculation, as ARIOCH HASN'T DRAWN OR WRITTEN ANYTHING IN FOREVER!!!

I'll take my share of the blame for lack of content that encourages wild speculation... nature and psychology both abhor a vacuum. Updates should resume with the new year, and fill some of that vacuum. One of the things that I hope will become more clear is that the Loroi are individual characters, and not of one heart or one mind about anything.

I would consider forming an alliance with the Loroi on the following terms
1: The Loroi recognize that the condition of the Golim, as a species, is the product of a artificially induced genetic augmentation (Slave Mentality and 5 levels of Weak Will according to GURPS) by science, most likely through a virus administered to their atmosphere by persons hereto unknown. They will acknoeledge that this is therefore, neither friendship, or loyalty.
2: The Loroi immediately cede all Golim territory, and make reparations for the generations of enslavement that they have the absolute audacity of calling "loyalty" and "friendship". These reparations shall take the form of material and money, which will be used to de-augment the Golim.
3: The Loroi will never. Ever. For any reason whatsoever. Use any form of Telepathy, Psychokinetics, or any other pychic ability on a human being. Ever. The Loroi use these abilities almost exclusively for murder, and their own selfish gain. Those trained in their usage have been demonstrated to be mentally unstable, if not criminally insane. They are therefore not fit in any way, shape or form to be anywhere NEAR an individual from a neutral power, let alone an Ambassador.

While the circumstances of any such negotiation are hypothetical at this point, it's difficult to imagine a situation in which Humanity would be in any position to make such demands. Assuming that Humanity has something that either side wants, there is likely very little that Humanity could do to stop them from taking it by force.

He is an ambassador.
To a Neutral Power.
Which occupies strategically vital territory.
Which will turn the tide.
In the current war.

Assuming for the moment that this is true, how would the Loroi commander who has been making the decisions regarding Alex be expected to know this? How would Alex even know it?

That the Loroi have been so far, unable or unwilling to walk down the hall, have a nice little chat with Alex, and determine this basic.
Obvious.
Fact.
Makes their incompetence incredibly plain to me.

Especially given the suspicious circumstances surrounding Alex's sudden appearance, why does it seem unreasonable that the Loroi commander might doubt the truth of what he has to say? Has there never been a Human commander who took actions that were stubborn, short-sighted, or colored by his prejudices? Is that the same thing as stupidity or incompetence? Is the entire Human race stupid and incompetent because of the actions of a single commander?

Thank you Arioch for these reasoned and sane answers... it saves me the time and embarrassment of making similar comments... which perhaps would have been less polite. Something I would dearly try to avoid... one should be able to disagree without being disagreeable, but I'll admit Greyhome's specious, and wild accusations ...put me at a wonder as to what comic he was reading?

Basically Greyhome you are accusing the Loroi of being a "Viciously bloodthirsty and violently savage race... unfit to be named among the civilized sapient species of known space." And YET... all the crimes of you have ascribed to the Loroi.. mankind has also been guilty of at some point or another in our own sordid and bloody history. Well maybe not the telepathic crimes... but I'm sure were mandkind so gifted we could not have done any better and likely may have done worse to our own fellow man had we such abilities.

You see what the Loroi are and blame them for how they developed completely bypassing the fact they have been artificially modified and or even genegineered to their current state! That's like blaming humans for having different skin colors... something that is WHOLLY out of our personal control!

You also overlook the fact that though the Loroi have some definite flaws~ civilization is not a whole-cloth finished product but a process of development and maturing, of a society, of learning from the mistakes and failings... hopefully to improve and advance as a society. Were someone to judge mankind on the actions of say the 1940's German Nazi's we could also be viewed as not worth the air we breathe and judged; "a hopelessly savage and violent race."

But what happened to those Nazi's? That's right mankind decided, "hey.. we should not treat our fellow man that way and not allow nations to commit such crimes!" We learned... and yes some of those same crimes are still committed today.. but as a whole mankind has matured and is of the general collective opinion that such actions are criminal and our society of civilized peoples will not let such crimes against humanity be done without reprisal and punishment for those who commit such criminal deeds.

We don't always perfectly enforce such laws and sometimes it takes years for proper punishment to be meted out {sometimes never}.. we are not perfect... but we are trying! Human civilization is not perfect but we are trying to make of ourselves a moral and socially just and responsible people. We're still not there ... but that does not mean we are without hope or that we can't change for the better!

I feel the same can be said about the Loroi... are they flawed? Yes. Do they have a violent and bloody history.. yep! Have we Humans done any different from them? Not by much... but we're trying to do better. I feel the Loroi can also be better too... with time, and perhaps the introduction of some foreign/human ways of thinking and viewing the universe around them!

The rise to civilization is an ongoing change and growth for a race... it is never a static final end point as 'life is change'. The Loroi may be violent and expansionistic, currently... but that does not mean they will ALWAYS be that way; any more than humanity was or is!

Just as humans are not monolithic and all the same~ we are a race of individuals... I'm sure the Loroi are similar as well. Even the Umiak... as it is clear to me someone WANTS the Loroi and the Umiak battling each other ~ and is clearly afraid humans may change the nature of that conflict!

I see hope that Humans, Loroi, and perhaps even someday the Umiak could make each other a better race of sentient beings by their interaction and social dialogue.

[RedDwarfIV]

Also, I think both the Loroi and the Alliance Fleet fall under this:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... dIsNotNice

Sir you are defending the indefensible. The Loroi has already been classified by tvtropes as Stupid Evil, the situation between the Loroi/Umiak has been classified as grey/black morality. Which side is which is open for debate. The "Good is Not Nice" definition does not even remotely apply to the Loroi. Humanity in this story is not interested in who the good guy or bad guy is in this story, their only interest is who is going to win the war.

Well, if TVTropes says so, it must be true.


But seriously, humanity's only interested in who will win because all they've heard about the combatants is that one will enslave you and the other will destroy you. When Alex actually met some of the people involved, they weren't what he thought they would be. The Loroi turned out to be more relatable to humans than expected.

[Count Casimir]

TVTropes is lame now, anyway.

But I'm still glad to be the only Ashrain fan. Just waiting for her to show up more.


ARIOCH.


Edit: Also I never stalked you while I was living in San Jose this last year. Curses, missed opportunities. I'm just over the hill though, so if you're planning to hit any nerd conventions in the area you should totally let us know.

[discord]

funny facts about the evil nazi monsters....
jesse owens, black athlete from the US and the MVP of the 1936 berlin olympics said ""Hitler didn't snub me – it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn't even send me a telegram.".
the history of that man is interesting to say the least.
the great 'snub' from Hitler was that he did not shake hands with owens...not necessarily true and of great debate, and as far as i know owens got significantly worse treatment at home.

wehrmacht had plenty of non aryan troops, blacks muslims chechens koreans heck even jews.
and according to records they were better treated as compared to allied 'non whites'... for instance, they were in fact allowed to eat at the same tables as whites.....
but one thing never changes, arabs are the worst soldiers ever, as testified by german officers.

and the worst atrocity during ww2 was not perpetrated by the germans, actually it was the japanese that won that award....nanking, effing nanking.... medical experiments that make mengele seem like mother theresa in comparison.

bottom line, germany was expansionist or at the very least aggressively pursuing land that they could claim as belonging to them, some people took offense and the fact that the current german leadership had a anti jew purge going on was awesome PR and was overplayed like crazy.

and now i am gonna play a new round of Hearts of Iron 3, as germany.

and then we have the modern 'nazis'.... words fail me trying to describe how idiotic they are.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Other funny facts about the evil nazi monsters.

• Murdered over 11 million non-combat people, including 1.1 million children. Jews, gypsies, ukrainians, russians, handicapped, communists, socialists, trade unionists, jehovah witnesses, catholic priests, homosexuals, among others.
• Established a group to sterilize dark skinned people in germany, which conducted sterilization of children between 1941 and 1945 at Aushwitz and Ravensbrueck, saying "There is not the slightest moral duty regarding the offspring of a foreign race."
• Burned at least 5,295 Belarusian settlements to the ground, killing almost a quarter of the country's population during three years of occupation.
• Forcibly euthanized hundreds of thousands of people deemed incurably sick. (Action T4)
• Between 50,000 and 200,000 polish children were kidnapped and taken to be germanized.

[NuclearIceCream]

The one thing I do have to agree with Grayhome on is them returning Alex to the same prison cell he was in before. I would think were we in the Lorroi's shoes we would have done some personnel shuffling and gotten the alien a room with at least some amenities. Though I certainly agree with keeping him under heavy guard.

This goes double for an alien we just established as an ambassador. Ambassador captain.

EDIT: There must be a better way to phrase/punctuate my first sentence. BUT IT ESCAPES ME!

[Arioch]

Rather than assuming that the Loroi are a monolithic entity who must be uniformly stupid and/or evil, consider these questions:

Tempo said that "unforseen events" prevented her from being present during Alex's interrogation, and took full responsibility for the consequences of her absence. But can you imagine any event that would keep the chief diplomatic officer (or any of her subordinates) from being present during the first contact interview with a new alien species, short of being actively prevented from doing so? Who aboard Tempest has the authority to exclude Tempo from such a meeting?

Why didn't Tempo visit Alex in his cell subsequent to his interrogation, and why did she have Alex come all the way to the bridge to talk to her? Who was conspicuously absent from the bridge when Alex arrived?

During Tempo's interview with Alex on the bridge, Stillstorm returns to the bridge, and Tempo interrupts Alex (who is in the process of trying to give her important location information) and bestows formal diplomatic status on him, in front of two foreign witnesses. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about it?

As the battle is about to begin, Alex is dismissed from the bridge, but Tempo calls him back under the pretext of observing his funerary rituals. Why would she do this? Does Stillstorm seem pleased about that?

When Alex is dismissed for the second time, he is promptly thrown back in the brig. Do you really think that was an oversight? Do you think it's standard Loroi procedure to lock up diplomats? Under whose orders could such a thing even be considered?

Why did neither Tempo nor Beryl (nor anyone other than the guards) visit Alex in the week or so subsequent to the battle? When Alex asks her why, Beryl dodges the question and apologizes that she "was not able" to visit him earlier, and that she's full of questions for him. One might speculate that Tempo also had a few questions for him. What or who could have prevented them from visiting him?