Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

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Twinkee
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Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Twinkee »

Rather than speculating on Alex's adventures to come I am wondering what people think Humanity can offer.

Here Tempo identifies their location as Naam. However this map shows Naam on the far side of Dab (which is Umiak space). Looking at this map of the front lines it seems there is, cosmically speaking, a thin line to reach Naam without first hitting Dab, Oazin or Semal.

So what came to my mind? Well do humanity's jump drives have superior range. The ability to jump deep into the Umiak territory would certainly provide a strategic advantage. Alex was interrupted before he could discuss where Sol or the Prabhu tanker are... so the Loroi can't yet comment on the Bellarmine's range. While the "still ten jumps behind" bit does shoot a hole at my idea, the route to Naam still seems provocative. Of course the other scout ships may well have found Dab and or Semal. However if any scouts had found Semal (which appears to be closer to Sol than Naam) wouldn't the 51st know about Humans by now?

What do you guys n' galls think humanity can offer the Loroi?

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Username »

A host of philosophical and political problems first and foremost! :lol:

Because of the way jumps work in outsider no race can have any true advantage, they all gotta play by the same rules. It would be impossible to "long jump" since there would be uncharted gravity wells and celestial bodies between you and your target.

Though you make a good point about other scout ships possibly reaching Loroi space already. Arioch has said in the past how Outsider is about Alex being the only acting member of humanity to the loroi(at least that is my understanding of it :?). As a result the fate of the other scout ships is left to our imaginations(giant asteroid worm anyone? :mrgreen: ).

The question of how the human race can help in the war has been asked before and mulled over in great detail. If someone more knowing then me could link a thread it would help.I think the most common example of humanity helping is providing a possible route to a previously unavailable section of Umiak space. Besides that there really isn't anything we could do short term, and our long term assistance would be dependent on how much tech the Loroi would be willing to share with us. With time and tech I think we could serve from a strike group service outpost to a fully able faction churning out warships. There would be little to no point in trying to field the current Terran navy in an engagement, it would be shredded(much like the Bellarmine)

Anyone else willing to share ?

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Senanthes »

...Raw resources, maybe? Industrial capacity? The latter would take time to build up to snuff though, and would be of dubious value in terms of output. We've advanced at a faster rate if I remember Insider correctly (just not to the same plateau), so perhaps we could be of use in research and development? Again, that would take time to build up our capability towards...

Offhand, in the immediate sense, we offer nothing but the fact that we're looking to side with the winner. They'd have just as much reason to glass us as to entertain the notion of allying with us.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by wasp609 »

we offer chocolate and cats.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

wasp609 wrote:we offer chocolate and cats.
Greywind: ''Draw up the treaty immediately!!''

Could be a good morale boost...

Jokes aside, there was already a similar discussion in this thread:
http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... ?f=4&t=994

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Karst45 »

Senanthes wrote:...Raw resources, maybe? Industrial capacity? The latter would take time to build up to snuff though, and would be of dubious value in terms of output. We've advanced at a faster rate if I remember Insider correctly (just not to the same plateau), so perhaps we could be of use in research and development? Again, that would take time to build up our capability towards...

Offhand, in the immediate sense, we offer nothing but the fact that we're looking to side with the winner. They'd have just as much reason to glass us as to entertain the notion of allying with us.

other point, we often make great discovery ether by random luck or nessesity. maybe we would think of a path the loroi never tought of exploring since they based their research on Soia tech. not to say there are not really creative but...

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Arioch »

There are dozens of threads touching on this discussion, but they're not centrally located. There's a fair bit of it spread through the Terran Q&A thread.
Twinkee wrote:So what came to my mind? Well do humanity's jump drives have superior range. The ability to jump deep into the Umiak territory would certainly provide a strategic advantage. Alex was interrupted before he could discuss where Sol or the Prabhu tanker are... so the Loroi can't yet comment on the Bellarmine's range. While the "still ten jumps behind" bit does shoot a hole at my idea, the route to Naam still seems provocative. Of course the other scout ships may well have found Dab and or Semal. However if any scouts had found Semal (which appears to be closer to Sol than Naam) wouldn't the 51st know about Humans by now?
This is a problem of the two-dimensional map; human space is higher on the Z-axis than the Steppes, and so the Bellarmine came into the area from "above" (from Galactic North). This route isn't listed on the display in question because (or so the Loroi thought) it didn't go anywhere. There will be another view soon of the route that the Bellarmine took relative to the local systems that will include Z-axis information, but that's not available at present.

But to answer the larger question: no, Humanity does not have superior jump range. With one notable exception, all of the combatants have pretty much the same FTL capability, which is limited by the proximity of stars.

Another tangential point I'd like to make is about the speed of communication: outside their own territory, communication is limited to the speed of courier ships. Within key Loroi systems that are part of the courier network, a message can go from system to system in a matter of hours, but to reach Strike Group 51 in the Steppes, a courier would have to transit several systems to find them and deliver the message, which would take weeks. So even if another Human scout had arrived at Semal at the same time that the Bellarmine had arrived at Naam, there's no way SG51 could know about it. They can't even currently confirm whether Kikitik-27's claim of an Umiak breakout at Azimol is true or false.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I suspect that what Humanity can offer the Loroi is something that the Umiak don't expect. It may be something as little as a critical eye, unclouded by preconceptions. It might be a backdoor into the Umiak homeworlds, with a refueling depot along the way.

Or it could be this. :lol:

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Karst45 »

Arioch wrote:Another tangential point I'd like to make is about the speed of communication: outside their own territory, communication is limited to the speed of courier ships. Within key Loroi systems that are part of the courier network, a message can go from system to system in a matter of hours, but to reach Strike Group 51 in the Steppes, a courier would have to transit several systems to find them and deliver the message, which would take weeks. So even if another Human scout had arrived at Semal at the same time that the Bellarmine had arrived at Naam, there's no way SG51 could know about it. They can't even currently confirm whether Kikitik-27's claim of an Umiak breakout at Azimol is true or false.
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Siber »

My money is on humanity offering nothing special to the war effort. Their economy is small and their tech subpar. Nothing special isn't nothing of course, every little bit counts, but getting us up to more than shipping fuel to the front inside the decade might take more investment than the Loroi can spare right now.

Human existence does seem to offer a catalyst for a change in the Loroi worldview, but that could bring the sort of upheaval that isn't really helpful in the middle of a desperate war. It might provide a political lever to use on the Historians? Hard to say without having answers to some of the setting's mysteries first.
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Twinkee »

So in the paraphrased words of Londo Mollari "Earth is located in a fairly uninteresting part of the galaxy. Which no one had ever bothered with before. It has little military or strategic value... But Humans have art and trinkets and eccentricity to spare." Though I have to admit it looks like Stillstorm does not approve.

Furthermore "[We're] the quiet ones... [we] change the universe." Though hopefully without paying a terrible price this time.

I particularly like icekatze's idea... Giving a new perspective... Maybe Wunderkind Alex will suggest that SG51 might not have lost Wintertide if Stillstorm had delegated command of her flanks more effectively... I'm sure Stillstorm will 'appreciate' Alex's efforts to emulate vocally the honesty of sensai.... So yes icekatze I think that love will definitely conquer all.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Karst45 »

Twinkee wrote:I particularly like icekatze's idea... Giving a new perspective... Maybe Wunderkind Alex will suggest that SG51 might not have lost Wintertide if Stillstorm had delegated command of her flanks more effectively... I'm sure Stillstorm will 'appreciate' Alex's efforts to emulate vocally the honesty of sensai.... So yes icekatze I think that love will definitely conquer all.

well i doubt that would be a good idea. imagine your on a battle field, you lost some of your man in the fight then an unknow civillian come and tell you how you should have fight to avoid losses. Pretty sure it would just end up with a punch in the face

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Karst45 wrote:well i doubt that would be a good idea. imagine your on a battle field, you lost some of your man in the fight then an unknow civillian come and tell you how you should have fight to avoid losses. Pretty sure it would just end up with a punch in the face
Well, not so much a civilian. But an Ensign who has only been promoted to Captain by technicality, and has never commanded anything outside a training scenario, with those training scenarios assuming an acceleration capability of 6Gs... while you are an experienced Fleet Commander who has lead her fleet to victory, and lost few, where others have lost entire strike groups, and successfully held off an attacking force so that this little twerp can comment on you losing a single vessel?
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

It doesn't necessarily even need to be anything that Alex intentionally does. His mere presence could encourage some of the less conservative elements in the Loroi social structure to take a stand. He could potentially make some Loroi consider things that they would not have otherwise considered. The existence of humans sort of challenges a lot of the Loroi's assumptions about themselves.

Arioch has posted his views on what it takes to be a successful military leader, and it doesn't involve crazy tricks that nobody else has ever thought of before. But there could be Loroi that already hold unpopular views, who suddenly become more relevant when his presence is revealed. Maybe there's a general out there who has always said that the Loroi are too reliant on their farseers, and will now have a chance to put her plans into action. Probably not, but that was just an example.

It might not be helping in an absolute sense, but it could potentially shake some of the dust out of their chain of command.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by bunnyboy »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Well, not so much a civilian. But an Ensign who has only been promoted...
He can brag all he wants, but he is still a suspicious outsider without anything to prove himself.
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

bunnyboy wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:Well, not so much a civilian. But an Ensign who has only been promoted...
He can brag all he wants, but he is still a suspicious outsider without anything to prove himself.
Exactly.

"You could have prevented the loss of X spacecraft if you'd done Y" would probably come off as him being an Armchair Admiral, given that she's an experienced fleet commander, and he isn't.

On the other hand, if he were Loroi, she'd already know what he was thinking. As Tempo explained, Stillstorm sees tact as dishonesty.
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Zakharra »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:Well, not so much a civilian. But an Ensign who has only been promoted...
He can brag all he wants, but he is still a suspicious outsider without anything to prove himself.
Exactly.

"You could have prevented the loss of X spacecraft if you'd done Y" would probably come off as him being an Armchair Admiral, given that she's an experienced fleet commander, and he isn't.

On the other hand, if he were Loroi, she'd already know what he was thinking. As Tempo explained, Stillstorm sees tact as dishonesty.

No. Stillstorm sees audible speech as dishonesty.

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Zakharra wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:He can brag all he wants, but he is still a suspicious outsider without anything to prove himself.
Exactly.

"You could have prevented the loss of X spacecraft if you'd done Y" would probably come off as him being an Armchair Admiral, given that she's an experienced fleet commander, and he isn't.

On the other hand, if he were Loroi, she'd already know what he was thinking. As Tempo explained, Stillstorm sees tact as dishonesty.

No. Stillstorm sees audible speech as dishonesty.
I stand corrected.
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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Arioch »

RedDwarfIV wrote:I stand corrected.
You're both right. Loroi like Stillstorm do believe that tact is dishonest. They would agree with Achilles: "Him do I hate even as the gates of hell who says one thing while he hides another in his heart; therefore I will say what I mean."

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Re: Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

Post by Twinkee »

I was going for sarcasm with the whole "I'm sure Stillstorm will 'appreciate' Alex's efforts" thing. I don't think Alex had nearly enough time to or tactical knowledge to offer much of any opinion.

However as we've had plenty of time to re-read the comic waiting for an update I've wondered about the tactical command thing. It seemed like Wintertide fell while Stillstorm's attention was on something else. Perhaps delegated authority covering a different quadrant of the battle could have directed fire at the Superheavy threats. I suspect I've had to much time to over think it all. I also have to accept that I have sod all command training myself. I wonder at what the command structure is like on that level. Perhaps because on some level I've already bonded with those lost Loroi. As we might never see SG51 again this does all seem rather superfluous to the story. But it's what went through my mind when I read those pages.

I think that Alex has some barriers to overcome. As Humans don't have telepathy I think that Arioch has come up with an interesting and alien trust barrier for Alex. I look forward to how the story unfolds and how much or little this mystical tact thing has on his adventure.

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