Speculation: What can Humaniti offer the Loroi?

[GeoModder]

That explains it then. Thanks guys.

[JQBogus]

Does a Nimitz's reactors weigh more than a Forrestal's steam generating plant plus a full load of fuel for it, though?

Forrestal's full loaded displacement is 80,000 tons, while its 'standard displacement' is only ~60,000 tons. Traditionally, the 'standard displacement' of a ship is its displacement fully loaded for war (as in with all weapons, munitions, supplies & crew aboard) but without the weight of the ship's fuel & boiler water. This would mean that Forrestal carried 20,000 tons of fuel & water. I know that an Iowa class BB carried 9-10,000 tons of fuel (2.5 million gallons) and it was a lighter ship with a smaller power plant. It isn't impossible that Forrestal between its greater size and possibly longer range, carried twice that.

[Nemo]

geo: might be some *shock* armoring involved.

The Midway class actually had 6 inch armor belts that were removed in their 1980s refit to increase freeboard. And they're working on giving the Ford class shields rather than armor plating. Well, they call it "dynamic armor". Use of electromagnetic fields to disrupt a shaped charge warhead's ionized plasma jets. I say raise the shields.

Does a Nimitz's reactors weigh more than a Forrestal's steam generating plant plus a full load of fuel for it, though?

I don't have the exact numbers on hand but remember aviation fuel in your figures. Virtually any savings made replacing the ship's fuel with a nuke would have gone to thirsty jet engines. And of course the power plant itself is much heavier as well.



I think the numbers involved are a bit deceptive. It looks like a very small increase in size between the Midway and the Nimitz class. 968 feet in length to 1040? Both close enough to round to 1000 and not bat an eye right? 33 to 37 foot draft? 113 to 134 beam? Psshaw, they're almost identical! Why, its only about a 10% increase in size! Or is it...

Check my math. 968x33x113 yields 3,609,672 cubic feet at the waterline for the Midway while 1040x37x134 yields 5,156,320 cubic feet. A rough 43% increase in volume at the waterline alone.

[discord]

nemo: remember here, ships are NOT cubes, at least if they are any good ships.

[JQBogus]

I was thinking fuel for the aircraft would be considered part of munitions & stores, not ship's fuel, and thus be included in the 'standard displacement'

You're right, though, about any savings in weight being eaten up by carrying even more jet fuel and bombs. Nimitz apparently carries twice the jet fuel and half again the munitions as Forrestal.

[Nemo]

nemo: remember here, ships are NOT cubes, at least if they are any good ships.

Quite right. But getting exacting figures would require more precise information than we have available and several flavors of calculus. If you have that at hand, I'd love to see the exact numbers. The shape of the ships below the waterline would differ, but only slightly. As they taper off towards the bottom both figures are over estimates of the actual volume, but they both err the same way so the comparison is valid enough for our purposes. The rough numbers above are to show just how deceitful the comparison between the classes is at first glance. The Nimitz is not only slightly larger, as it would seem to the eyeball, but substantially larger.

I was thinking fuel for the aircraft would be considered part of munitions & stores, not ship's fuel, and thus be included in the 'standard displacement'

I don't actually know how they measure displacement for carriers. For instance, does it include the weight of the air wing?

[wasp609]

nemo: remember here, ships are NOT cubes, at least if they are any good ships.

Quite right. But getting exacting figures would require more precise information than we have available and several flavors of calculus. If you have that at hand, I'd love to see the exact numbers. The shape of the ships below the waterline would differ, but only slightly. As they taper off towards the bottom both figures are over estimates of the actual volume, but they both err the same way so the comparison is valid enough for our purposes. The rough numbers above are to show just how deceitful the comparison between the classes is at first glance. The Nimitz is not only slightly larger, as it would seem to the eyeball, but substantially larger.

I was thinking fuel for the aircraft would be considered part of munitions & stores, not ship's fuel, and thus be included in the 'standard displacement'

I don't actually know how they measure displacement for carriers. For instance, does it include the weight of the air wing?

when talking about carriers, the displacement when empty is called light displacement and when loaded it is load displacement.

[Arioch]

when talking about carriers, the displacement when empty is called light displacement and when loaded it is load displacement.

Also often referred to as "deadweight" displacement.

[wasp609]

when talking about carriers, the displacement when empty is called light displacement and when loaded it is load displacement.

Also often referred to as "deadweight" displacement.

i knew i forgot to add something.

[Nemo]

Depending on the reference I check I get figures from 89k tons to 105k tons for a Nimitz class carrier. I wonder if its differences rising from changes in the ships as they were built, refits and modernization, how they're measuring "loaded", or just faulty info.

[zircher]

I'm sure the data is good. Over the life of the carrier, its weight will change with missions, refits, etc. A single number can only describe the vessel at a given point in time.

[Nemo]

Well, the only reason I put it out there as a possibility is that some of my references are Cold War era. So yes its badly dated, but I know we had a habit of generalizing approximating and/or fabricating specifications for our hardware. I can't tell you how many books I have that list F-14/15 speeds at Mach 2+, subs dive to 400+ feet, and our ships do 28+ or 30+ knots that sort of thing. I don't see much benefit from deceiving people about the precise displacement, but it seems like an easy enough thing to hide that I don't see a reason not to fudge things just a bit.

[Mr.Tucker]

I hate to point this out, but this discussion is deviating.

[discord]

tucker: well, it happens, in fact it would be abnormal for it NOT to derail.

so, how about them cubs?

[Mr.Tucker]

Cubs?

[zircher]

I always heard it as "How about them dodgers?"

Swerving back on topic...

The answer seems to be not much. But, we don't know much about the enemy either. Perhaps the Umiak have some psychic abilities different from the Loroi that humans are also immune to. For example, what if the Umiak are into mental slavery? Human ships could operate in Umiak space without getting snared/enslaved. Perhaps there is subject race that is human-like that the Umiak absorbed and we could infiltrate their colonies undetected? Pure speculation, of course, but I bet the answer is in the cards that have not been revealed to the reader yet.

I'm still waiting for the other 'Outsider' to show up in the story so that we get a different perspective.

[discord]

tucker: cubs.com commonly used when switching topic at a strange time in sitcoms and the like.

zircher: I find it unlikely that the umiak have any such ability, it might crimp their style or something...
but yes, if the umiak got slave loroi as farseers humans could offer a rather nifty game ender.

[Siber]

I'm still waiting for the other 'Outsider' to show up in the story so that we get a different perspective.

I always figured the eponymous outsider was Alex. Is there another one that Arioch's hinted at somewhere? It is Outsider, not Outsiders...

[zircher]

Well, there is that little tidbit that Ellen Kirkland was talking after the Bellarmine lit up. I can so see a parallel story arc with her in it as an Outsider.

[fredgiblet]

Nah, Alex has been confirmed as the only human more than once IIRC.

That being said there's also been statements to the effect that some of the Loroi (like Fireblade) are effectively outsiders in their own species as well.