What is better not offer to Loroi

[Sweforce]

But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done

Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.

[Mr.Tucker]

But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done

Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.

I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature .

[RedDwarfIV]

But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done

Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.

I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature .

That's a point. If the Umiak ever develop Farseeing, then humans would make invaluable strike group crews, as the Umiak wouldn't know they were coming.

[dragoongfa]

I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature .

Don't forget that the Umiak are masters at cybernetics, they don't have to 'convince or coerce' Loroi prisoners to pass on experience and technique, they only need to apply their knowledge on select captives and the rest would be simple biochemistry.

[Mr.Tucker]

I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature .

Don't forget that the Umiak are masters at cybernetics, they don't have to 'convince or coerce' Loroi prisoners to pass on experience and technique, they only need to apply their knowledge on select captives and the rest would be simple biochemistry.

Simple biochemistry? The Loroi have probably been studying themselves or thousands of years, with their most advanced instruments. And the results speak for themselves...they have no idea what powers their abilities, how they work, what particles carry their PK signals or even if such signals exist. Their power comes from ''somewhere outside'' (Liberate Te Ex Inferis!), and can be amplified by copying ancient structures that are, in essence, black boxes. A brain in a jar is no good to an Umiak if said brain doesn't know what to do with their abilities, how to read targets or even what technique to use in order to focus on them. No one has or had an inkling of how these things function, except the ancient Soia (damm those dudes were scary; rolfstomp the Dreiman, who, in their own right, could move planets and terraform wast swaths of systems , and then engineer an ability that no one has managed to understand in 250000 years....INTO LIVING BEINGS).

[dragoongfa]

Simple biochemistry? The Loroi have probably been studying themselves or thousands of years, with their most advanced instruments. And the results speak for themselves...they have no idea what powers their abilities, how they work, what particles carry their PK signals or even if such signals exist. Their power comes from ''somewhere outside'' (Liberate Te Ex Inferis!), and can be amplified by copying ancient structures that are, in essence, black boxes. A brain in a jar is no good to an Umiak if said brain doesn't know what to do with their abilities, how to read targets or even what technique to use in order to focus on them. No one has or had an inkling of how these things function, except the ancient Soia (damm those dudes were scary; rolfstomp the Dreiman, who, in their own right, could move planets and terraform wast swaths of systems , and then engineer an ability that no one has managed to understand in 250000 years....INTO LIVING BEINGS).

Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.

[Mr.Tucker]

Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.

While I guess that's possible, I can foresee issues with that. IRL, persons under the influence of biochemical agents, even if made cooperative, would not be very useful or effective teachers (or useful as anything actually). Now, in Outsider more advanced species like the Umiak, could develop ''hypnotic serums'' or treatments involving drugs and conditioning that turn patients into perfectly functional, full memory automatons. How well they could do that is a question best answered by Arioch.
Another thing to point out is that an Umiak-affiliated farseer could be detected and contacted by Loroi ones, and that they also have the ability to read all sentient minds around them (their drugged teachers, their Umiak ''allies'', etc). Even if they're indoctrinated from a young age, that doesn't mean they would be 100% reliable (at what age do Loroi develop psy abilities I wonder?).
Could the Umiak pull it off? I'm pretty sure, eventually. Is 25 years enough? Not really sure about that. Though it's likely they were already studying Loroi from afar before the war began....ARGH. Too many possibilities .

[dragoongfa]

Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.

While I guess that's possible, I can foresee issues with that. IRL, persons under the influence of biochemical agents, even if made cooperative, would not be very useful or effective teachers (or useful as anything actually). Now, in Outsider more advanced species like the Umiak, could develop ''hypnotic serums'' or treatments involving drugs and conditioning that turn patients into perfectly functional, full memory automatons. How well they could do that is a question best answered by Arioch.
Another thing to point out is that an Umiak-affiliated farseer could be detected and contacted by Loroi ones, and that they also have the ability to read all sentient minds around them (their drugged teachers, their Umiak ''allies'', etc). Even if they're indoctrinated from a young age, that doesn't mean they would be 100% reliable (at what age do Loroi develop psy abilities I wonder?).
Could the Umiak pull it off? I'm pretty sure, eventually. Is 25 years enough? Not really sure about that. Though it's likely they were already studying Loroi from afar before the war began....ARGH. Too many possibilities .

It is my belief that the Umiak would stop at nothing to gain a telepathic capability but since it's not something that can just be spliced into the genome then they would go a circumvent way to get it anyway.

The way I envision it is this, also spoilers for my fanfic and it's pretty fucking dark to begin with:

SpoilerShow

Stage 1 research: Early Loroi POWs and pre war abductees extensively studied and disected; full mapping of the Loroi brain. Preliminary studies show promise of 'acceptable' controlled behavior and memory manipulation using a combination of cybernatic implants and drugs. This stage ends early in the war.

Stage 2 research and early results: Mass scale studies using captive Loroi populations. Capability to study multiple specimens as they grow from infancy shows that without any adult Loroi in Sanzai range then the children become easily manipulated even without technological means. However if these manipulated children are allowed to communicate with free Loroi then they will revert back to normal. Mass abduction of Loroi infants, male and female throughout captive space. They are sent deep into Umiak space away from any possible communication with free Loroi populations. This stage concludes in year 6 of the war, an year, an year and a half after the fall of Seren.

Stage 3 research and first tangible results: Through an effective breeding program, coupled with cybernetic and drug behavioral control the first generation of captives produce an ever increasing pool of specimens. It is also discovered that if the female is in a chemically induced comma throughout the pregnancy, the subsequent offspring are almost fully blank from any emotional influence. First experiments of cybernetic implantation during the later stage of pregnancy. First successful neural connection (through cybernetic means) of an Umiak with a Loroi specimen. This stage ends in year 15.

Stage 4 research and first mass production models: Blank Slate Loroi under cybernetic/drug control, while under the care of an Umiak neural symbiont are able to be taught certain Telepathic skills from carefully controlled Loroi captives. Certain experiment results cause a mass screening of Loroi specimens for those with Farseeing capabilities, immediate breeding program begins in order to produce sufficient Loroi-Umiak neural symbiont units with Farseeing capabilities. First mass produced models enter maturity in year 24 of the war.

[Grayhome]

SPOLIER

*slow clap*
This is what I also envisioned, and why any option humanity takes at this point other than fortification of it's meager territory and prolonging the time before eventual contact to research and build as many new weapons as possible is stupid to a suicidal degree

Any opponent anywhere near the Umiak's level of pure evil wouldn't have even the slightest hesitation to do all of the events listed above and more. Not only to the loroi, but to each and every race they enslaved along the way. The Umiak's first response to anything even resembling a ship coming out of any unknown sector (let alone the sector they are already expanding into and need as a necessity to outflank the Loroi) would be to swarm swarm swarm with every available vessel at their disposal. They would burn out their own engines to find and occupy human controlled space, and damn the consequences.

[icekatze]

hi hi

The Loroi have spent a very long time trying to better harness telepathic powers, and there does not seem to be a way to systematically control it. The Umiak certainly have done extensive experiments on Loroi captured from planets early in the war, and done behavior modifications, but telepathy itself is not so easily recreated or controlled. And if they're not going for the telepathy, why wouldn't they just use computers instead?

"Loroi telepathy is a product of the way the Loroi brain is structured; there isn't a telepathic "organ" or something similar. It's not entirely clear even to the Loroi exactly what makes some telepaths more powerful than others" - Quotations from the old forums.

It is also clear that genetics alone will not produce a powerful telepath, and there was some speculation that telepathic contact with the mother during pregnancy, along with other environmental factors would be needed to produce a strong telepath. This is not dissimilar to the development of human brains, which require a great deal of nurture to not only develop cognitively, but even the macro scale physical structures.

It should also be pointed out that the Orgus took an isolationist approach, and we all know how well that worked out for them. It is clearly established in the context of the story that fortification and prolonging the time before eventual contact would be foolhardy at best. Instead of meeting the aliens on humanity's terms, waiting until they find us would give away the one advantage that we can bring to the bargaining table.

[dragoongfa]

hi hi

The Loroi have spent a very long time trying to better harness telepathic powers, and there does not seem to be a way to systematically control it. The Umiak certainly have done extensive experiments on Loroi captured from planets early in the war, and done behavior modifications, but telepathy itself is not so easily recreated or controlled. And if they're not going for the telepathy, why wouldn't they just use computers instead?

"Loroi telepathy is a product of the way the Loroi brain is structured; there isn't a telepathic "organ" or something similar. It's not entirely clear even to the Loroi exactly what makes some telepaths more powerful than others" - Quotations from the old forums.

It is also clear that genetics alone will not produce a powerful telepath, and there was some speculation that telepathic contact with the mother during pregnancy, along with other environmental factors would be needed to produce a strong telepath. This is not dissimilar to the development of human brains, which require a great deal of nurture to not only develop cognitively, but even the macro scale physical structures.

In my mind the Umiak wouldn't need to have a large percentage of pet telepaths given birth; even if their methods are limiting strong telepathic births to just 1% then any such program would still be a success because of the economy of scale.

As for nurture, they would sure nurture those brains, just not in the way any Loroi would consider nurturing.

[Arioch]

Having a bunch of Loroi plugged into a "Matrix" false reality to fool them into applying their telepathic talents for the benefit of the Umiak is one of the few scenarios for such a system that makes actual sense. Unlike the "human battery" concept.

(That's not what's going on, but it's an interesting concept.)

[Razor One]

I figured that the Umiak went for the opposite approach.

We know that Loroi telepathy can distinguish intelligent life from a long distance, but seems to be blind to non-living matter. The solution then is obvious. Become non-living matter. I figure that the last two decades of war have seen the Umiak increasingly stepping up their cybernetics programs trying to find the critical threshold where Loroi telepathy begins to fail to identify the Umiak as living things. If they started the war at a ratio of 80/20 living thing and cybernetics, then they could be 20/80 living thing to cybernetics now. Once they fall below threshold, they send out a few probing strikes to verify, and once verified, go for the deep strikes they've always wanted.

It fits perfectly with the monomania and self sacrifice ethos of the Umiak perfectly and seems to be a better fit for the facts we have on hand. It also means the Loroi are likely screwed unless they can adapt their telepathy to detect something that won't register on their psidar.

Oh look! A Hunam!

[RedDwarfIV]

It should also be pointed out that the Orgus took an isolationist approach, and we all know how well that worked out for them. It is clearly established in the context of the story that fortification and prolonging the time before eventual contact would be foolhardy at best. Instead of meeting the aliens on humanity's terms, waiting until they find us would give away the one advantage that we can bring to the bargaining table.

Not necessarily.

What was the Orgus' rate of technologolical develoment? Did they have an ally willing to provide them with technology on par with the Umiak's?

Because we know that the Loroi probably will provide the Terrans with advanced technology, and humans have the tech advancement capabilities to hadle merging those technologies into their own (possibly including some reverse-engineering to get a cruder version that can be used earlier.) The time before contact is the only advantage the Terrans have right now. It's no use surprising the Umiak with our initiative if our surprise consists of two Mjolnir-equipped battlecruisers and a few cruisers, all of which can be outrun and probably outgunned by whatever the Umiak use as patrol frigates.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Right now Humanity has the unknown to their benefit. The Loroi don't know what Humanity's capabilities are or are not, they don't know where our homeworld is, they have questions and questions demand answers. If Humanity were to let the major powers find them first, then they would lose a significant amount of leverage, the element of surprise.

Speaking of unknowns. Humanity does not know what their technological capabilities are relative to the Loroi and the Umiak. We know, because we read the insider, but judging from Alex's shock at the size of the fleets in a border skirmish, Humanity expected to be outmatched and was still underestimating how badly outmatched they would be. Humanity knows that the Umiak have conquered the Orgus, and they know the general tech level of the Orgus, but that doesn't give them any expectation that they might be able to catch up.

We don't know that the Loroi will give humanity technology. It might make sense, but the Loroi are rather xenophobic. However, Humanity definitely does not know this. They don't know much about the Loroi at all. But the Loroi definitely are not going to give Humanity any technology if Humanity does not go and make contact with them. It is very difficult to give someone something if you don't know they exist. They can't just point their radio telescopes at Loroi space and hope the Loroi accidentally transmit a bunch of technological specs in their direction.

[RedDwarfIV]

Oh. You were focusing on how the Orgus were isolationist. Now I get where you're coming from. I was talking about how the Terrans could not and should not attempt independent military operations against the Umiak until their tech base has been improved.

Although I will point out, if the Loroi want to expand the front to human space, they would need to give humanity the technology to provide all the things a forward base would need. They may mistrust aliens, but I don't think they'd ignore a potential advantage just because it's aliens that can offer it.

[Zakharra]

The Orgus were isolationist traders... that seems like an oxymoron.

[Hālian]

So were the Japanese under the Tokugawa bakufu.

[Arioch]

The Orgus wanted to trade without having to become allied with the Umiak or having to go to war with the Loroi. I'm not sure that "isolationist" is the right term for that. But even if it is, that kind of isolationism has nothing to do with trade. The United States prior to the World Wars was isolationist in the sense that it didn't want to become entangled in Europe's alliances, but they still wanted to trade.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Isolationist, in the sense that I was using it, was in regards to trying to avoid the conflict. In any case, I don't think it is unwise for humanity to try to be proactive. Even if they had comparable warships to the Umiak, it is debatable whether they would be able to hold out for long. (I am curious to see how long the Loroi can hold out without the advantage of their Farseers.)