What is better not offer to Loroi

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by sunphoenix »

dragoongfa wrote: The new product was an unimaginable success, billions of Soia men had preordered dozens of the (Large Onaholian Remotely Operated Intelligences - L.O.R.O.I.)
Bwahahahaha! Dude.. you are NOT Right! :)
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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by JQBogus »

Elan from OotS would jump right to the real answer: The Good Guy Federation will always beat the Bad Guy Empire in the end. It may take until the end of Act III, but it will happen. The Story requires it!

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elorran
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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by elorran »

Perhaps it would be wise to keep L'Oréal products away from the loroi. Don't want any soylent green misunderstandings happening.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by TrashMan »

RedDwarfIV wrote:...

You're aware, I hope, that Loroi spacecraft are propelled by an analogue of antimatter. Terran Imperium spacecraft are propelled by hydrogen peroxide. They use chemical propulsion. That means good acceleration, but pathetic endurance.

WH40K FTL technology relies on either warpspace (liberate tutemet ex inferis) and a portal network that is not available to everyone. The Loroi use a form of trans-stellar jump drive which, so long as you have decent survey maps, is safe and reliable.

Loroi spacecraft use turrets. Terran Imperium warships use fixed broadsides.

The Loroi have active research and development. The Terran Imperium most certainly does not.
Imperial tech is sturdy as f***. Taking a beating and still working.
Imperial vessels have a whole array of different weapons - from fixed lances to various cannons and turrets. To quote:

Weapons batteries usually are the primary armament for most Imperial warships. Since each battery consists of numerous ranks of individual weapons, whole sections of the starship's hull can be covered by gun ports, launcher systems, turrets and weapon housings. The weapons employed vary immensely: Plasma Projectors, close-range Missile Launchers, Laser Cannons, Rail Guns, Fusion Beamers and Graviton Pulsars have all been found on Imperial warships. These batteries fire in coordinated salvoes, to increase the chances to hit and the amount of damage done to a target.

Image

Lastly, Imperial vessels - cruiser and battleships - are in the 5+km length range.
And have multi-layered void shields that can easily tank continent-leveling levels of firewpoer

A single Emperor Battleship could wreck an entire Loroi battlefleet
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icekatze
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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Anyone can throw random numbers of power levels and things around when they're talking about soft science fiction. Oftentimes it is a result of the writers not knowing anything about science, than a result of deliberate application of science. Usually, they pick a random number that sounds sufficiently big, and drop it in so that the audience thinks it is sufficiently big. (Yet they usually have no idea of how big space actually is.)

"One point twenty one Gigawatts. Whoa! That must be a lot."

The fluff contained in Warhammer 40k is notoriously inconsistent and self-contradictory, and as far as I can tell, it is supposed to be. What better way to simulate the loss of science and reason in a dark age by having lots of self-contradictory statements in your own literature? Honestly, I would be rather surprised if that wasn't a conscious decision on the part of Games Workshop.

(Back when I was in a Rogue Trader game, the Game Master repeatedly had to stop himself, and use the disclaimer, "Sorry guys, but that's what the book says." Whenever the space, or navigating our ship through space, was concerned. We all had a good laugh about the "Missing Gas Giant," in the published scenario. Also, manually loading all those weapons, hah! That's why a single round of space combat is 30 minutes game time.)

Star Trek at least made some efforts at hard science fiction, at least back at the beginning. But that's not to say that it is inherently better because of that. The writers certainly didn't stick with that notion, and the people doing visual effects definitely don't have realism in mind. So even when the actors say, "It's three hundred thousand kilometers away," they cut to an exterior shot and the two things are right next to each other.

(And the Millennium Falcon eats countless turbolaser hits, but they're worried about running into an asteroid that is only moving maybe a hundred miles an hour.)

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Arioch »

Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote:Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.
90% of science fiction is barely that if you think about it, not saying that you are wrong mind you, in the grand scheme of things the majority of writers have simply changed magic and the supernatural with technobabble and psychic powers, all of this without thinking about a plausible and properly explained approach to the setting. My approach to this is simple: If for any reason the setting has a plot critical element explained with 'jazz hands' then the story loses my interest. This doesn't include 'toying with things that people don't understand', that usually ends up in a moment of awesome.

On my personal preferences I consider the Lost Fleet, The Forever War, Dune and Starship Troopers as sci-fi stories that really deserve the name.

Also HERESY BLAM thanks Commissar :P

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Arioch »

dragoongfa wrote:90% of science fiction is barely that if you think about it, not saying that you are wrong mind you, in the grand scheme of things the majority of writers have simply changed magic and the supernatural with technobabble and psychic powers, all of this without thinking about a plausible and properly explained approach to the setting.
Agreed, and I enjoy "science fantasy" as much as anyone. I'm just saying that 40K and Star Wars are odd settings to choose to argue about the realism of the systems, since there's very little about either one that's even remotely realistic.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by TrashMan »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Anyone can throw random numbers of power levels and things around when they're talking about soft science fiction. Oftentimes it is a result of the writers not knowing anything about science, than a result of deliberate application of science. Usually, they pick a random number that sounds sufficiently big, and drop it in so that the audience thinks it is sufficiently big. (Yet they usually have no idea of how big space actually is.)

"One point twenty one Gigawatts. Whoa! That must be a lot."

The fluff contained in Warhammer 40k is notoriously inconsistent and self-contradictory, and as far as I can tell, it is supposed to be. What better way to simulate the loss of science and reason in a dark age by having lots of self-contradictory statements in your own literature? Honestly, I would be rather surprised if that wasn't a conscious decision on the part of Games Workshop.

Star Trek at least made some efforts at hard science fiction, at least back at the beginning. But that's not to say that it is inherently better because of that. The writers certainly didn't stick with that notion, and the people doing visual effects definitely don't have realism in mind. So even when the actors say, "It's three hundred thousand kilometers away," they cut to an exterior shot and the two things are right next to each other.

(And the Millennium Falcon eats countless turbolaser hits, but they're worried about running into an asteroid that is only moving maybe a hundred miles an hour.)
I can agree with you that writers often have a poor grasp of science (they don't really need to have it, tough a sense of SCALE would be nice) or don't pay attention and contradict themselves often.
I honestly put little faith in derived/calculated numbers (they are crap in 99% of cases anyway) and "official" descrptions (since they often don't match what you are seeing at all).

40K has been consistent in a few things tough - void shields are nigh impregnible and warship do carry absurd amounts of firepower.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by junk »

Arioch wrote:If one were going to design a race of ground troops, they might look something like... the Barsam. But ground troops are not the only kind of warrior. And in this milieu, they are actually the least important kind of warrior. Wars are won in space, not on the ground; yes, you need troops to hold the dirt, but after the space battle is over, eventual victory on the ground is fait accompli.

Unless you have FTL communication or great faith in your AI, as well as impeccable self-repairing systems, drone starships are not a good option; you need someone to man them.
I'll be honest I'd have significantly more faith in a well designed AI system compared to a biological sentience which has needs and wants which will strongly inhibit it.

But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done.

Honestly though, the thing that interests me, is if a human can interact with that interface in some way.
Arioch wrote:Warhammer 40,000 is barely science fiction at all. It's Warhammer Fantasy with guns and spaceships.
40k is...complicated and hugely depends on the writer. But while it might be really weird in terms of technology it's actually fairly amazing sci fi in terms of sociology. Many of the human societies in 40k are driven to the extreme but often internally actually manage to work out in a very interesting manner.

But yeah, pretty much two things are consistent in 40k.
a) the actual technology is so advanced no one actually understands it anymore. (they're cavemen who have a cellphone factory and know how to use them, but but they don't understand how it works as they don't even have access to all the intricacies of the hardware and cant even get to the source code)
Which is really nicely shown on a couple of times. For instance when that one mechanicum ship has a hiccup and goes into full combat mode for a short time. With weapons, targeters and computers coming online about which no one even knew.
b) Magic in the setting is real and ancient humanity was able harness it.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Sweforce »

junk wrote:But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done
Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Sweforce wrote:
junk wrote:But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done
Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.
I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature ;) .

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
junk wrote:But yeah to be honest loroi always on telepathy is a huge liability in terms of space warfare. If the enemy finds a way to even just detect loroi mind broadcast, they can fairly simply pinpoint the location of Loroi colonies, battlegroups, refuelling stations and their infrastructure centers. We know a loroi mind machine interface of sorts exist so there's obviously a way that this can be done
Came to think of it. The Umiak have taken lot's of Loroi prisoners and are bound to try to have their ways with them. This could produce brainwashed Loroi, Quislings, Jannisars and wetwork CPU's. After 25 years of war they may have their own farseers and worse.
I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature ;) .
That's a point. If the Umiak ever develop Farseeing, then humans would make invaluable strike group crews, as the Umiak wouldn't know they were coming.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by dragoongfa »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature ;) .
Don't forget that the Umiak are masters at cybernetics, they don't have to 'convince or coerce' Loroi prisoners to pass on experience and technique, they only need to apply their knowledge on select captives and the rest would be simple biochemistry.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Mr.Tucker »

dragoongfa wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
I get the impression that Loroi telepaths are trained by other Loroi telepaths, using experience and techniques accumulated over thousands of years. That experience is lacking with the Umiak. Though they would probably eventually find a way around it (maniacal workers as they are), I'm not sure 25 years is enough. We're gonna have to wait for the story to continue some ways before we know if they're breached Loroi defenses and how. If, however, they HAVE managed to turn the Loroi's telepathy against them, then the Loroi are doomed. Unless....the Loroi turn to an ally that has no psychic signature ;) .
Don't forget that the Umiak are masters at cybernetics, they don't have to 'convince or coerce' Loroi prisoners to pass on experience and technique, they only need to apply their knowledge on select captives and the rest would be simple biochemistry.
Simple biochemistry? The Loroi have probably been studying themselves or thousands of years, with their most advanced instruments. And the results speak for themselves...they have no idea what powers their abilities, how they work, what particles carry their PK signals or even if such signals exist. Their power comes from ''somewhere outside'' (Liberate Te Ex Inferis!), and can be amplified by copying ancient structures that are, in essence, black boxes. A brain in a jar is no good to an Umiak if said brain doesn't know what to do with their abilities, how to read targets or even what technique to use in order to focus on them. No one has or had an inkling of how these things function, except the ancient Soia (damm those dudes were scary; rolfstomp the Dreiman, who, in their own right, could move planets and terraform wast swaths of systems :shock: , and then engineer an ability that no one has managed to understand in 250000 years....INTO LIVING BEINGS).

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by dragoongfa »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Simple biochemistry? The Loroi have probably been studying themselves or thousands of years, with their most advanced instruments. And the results speak for themselves...they have no idea what powers their abilities, how they work, what particles carry their PK signals or even if such signals exist. Their power comes from ''somewhere outside'' (Liberate Te Ex Inferis!), and can be amplified by copying ancient structures that are, in essence, black boxes. A brain in a jar is no good to an Umiak if said brain doesn't know what to do with their abilities, how to read targets or even what technique to use in order to focus on them. No one has or had an inkling of how these things function, except the ancient Soia (damm those dudes were scary; rolfstomp the Dreiman, who, in their own right, could move planets and terraform wast swaths of systems :shock: , and then engineer an ability that no one has managed to understand in 250000 years....INTO LIVING BEINGS).
Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Mr.Tucker »

dragoongfa wrote:Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.
While I guess that's possible, I can foresee issues with that. IRL, persons under the influence of biochemical agents, even if made cooperative, would not be very useful or effective teachers (or useful as anything actually). Now, in Outsider more advanced species like the Umiak, could develop ''hypnotic serums'' or treatments involving drugs and conditioning that turn patients into perfectly functional, full memory automatons. How well they could do that is a question best answered by Arioch.
Another thing to point out is that an Umiak-affiliated farseer could be detected and contacted by Loroi ones, and that they also have the ability to read all sentient minds around them (their drugged teachers, their Umiak ''allies'', etc). Even if they're indoctrinated from a young age, that doesn't mean they would be 100% reliable (at what age do Loroi develop psy abilities I wonder?).
Could the Umiak pull it off? I'm pretty sure, eventually. Is 25 years enough? Not really sure about that. Though it's likely they were already studying Loroi from afar before the war began....ARGH. Too many possibilities :( .

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by dragoongfa »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:Biochemistry as in directly messing up the 'patient's' brain with hallucinogens and other drugs in order to get them to pass on their experiences/knowledge with little to no personal inhibition.

Then the problem lies with controlling the new 'blank slate' telepaths that the above captives would pass their knowledge to.
While I guess that's possible, I can foresee issues with that. IRL, persons under the influence of biochemical agents, even if made cooperative, would not be very useful or effective teachers (or useful as anything actually). Now, in Outsider more advanced species like the Umiak, could develop ''hypnotic serums'' or treatments involving drugs and conditioning that turn patients into perfectly functional, full memory automatons. How well they could do that is a question best answered by Arioch.
Another thing to point out is that an Umiak-affiliated farseer could be detected and contacted by Loroi ones, and that they also have the ability to read all sentient minds around them (their drugged teachers, their Umiak ''allies'', etc). Even if they're indoctrinated from a young age, that doesn't mean they would be 100% reliable (at what age do Loroi develop psy abilities I wonder?).
Could the Umiak pull it off? I'm pretty sure, eventually. Is 25 years enough? Not really sure about that. Though it's likely they were already studying Loroi from afar before the war began....ARGH. Too many possibilities :( .
It is my belief that the Umiak would stop at nothing to gain a telepathic capability but since it's not something that can just be spliced into the genome then they would go a circumvent way to get it anyway.

The way I envision it is this, also spoilers for my fanfic and it's pretty fucking dark to begin with:
SpoilerShow
Stage 1 research: Early Loroi POWs and pre war abductees extensively studied and disected; full mapping of the Loroi brain. Preliminary studies show promise of 'acceptable' controlled behavior and memory manipulation using a combination of cybernatic implants and drugs. This stage ends early in the war.

Stage 2 research and early results: Mass scale studies using captive Loroi populations. Capability to study multiple specimens as they grow from infancy shows that without any adult Loroi in Sanzai range then the children become easily manipulated even without technological means. However if these manipulated children are allowed to communicate with free Loroi then they will revert back to normal. Mass abduction of Loroi infants, male and female throughout captive space. They are sent deep into Umiak space away from any possible communication with free Loroi populations. This stage concludes in year 6 of the war, an year, an year and a half after the fall of Seren.

Stage 3 research and first tangible results: Through an effective breeding program, coupled with cybernetic and drug behavioral control the first generation of captives produce an ever increasing pool of specimens. It is also discovered that if the female is in a chemically induced comma throughout the pregnancy, the subsequent offspring are almost fully blank from any emotional influence. First experiments of cybernetic implantation during the later stage of pregnancy. First successful neural connection (through cybernetic means) of an Umiak with a Loroi specimen. This stage ends in year 15.

Stage 4 research and first mass production models: Blank Slate Loroi under cybernetic/drug control, while under the care of an Umiak neural symbiont are able to be taught certain Telepathic skills from carefully controlled Loroi captives. Certain experiment results cause a mass screening of Loroi specimens for those with Farseeing capabilities, immediate breeding program begins in order to produce sufficient Loroi-Umiak neural symbiont units with Farseeing capabilities. First mass produced models enter maturity in year 24 of the war.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by Grayhome »

SPOLIER
*slow clap*
This is what I also envisioned, and why any option humanity takes at this point other than fortification of it's meager territory and prolonging the time before eventual contact to research and build as many new weapons as possible is stupid to a suicidal degree

Any opponent anywhere near the Umiak's level of pure evil wouldn't have even the slightest hesitation to do all of the events listed above and more. Not only to the loroi, but to each and every race they enslaved along the way. The Umiak's first response to anything even resembling a ship coming out of any unknown sector (let alone the sector they are already expanding into and need as a necessity to outflank the Loroi) would be to swarm swarm swarm with every available vessel at their disposal. They would burn out their own engines to find and occupy human controlled space, and damn the consequences.

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Re: What is better not offer to Loroi

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The Loroi have spent a very long time trying to better harness telepathic powers, and there does not seem to be a way to systematically control it. The Umiak certainly have done extensive experiments on Loroi captured from planets early in the war, and done behavior modifications, but telepathy itself is not so easily recreated or controlled. And if they're not going for the telepathy, why wouldn't they just use computers instead?

"Loroi telepathy is a product of the way the Loroi brain is structured; there isn't a telepathic "organ" or something similar. It's not entirely clear even to the Loroi exactly what makes some telepaths more powerful than others" - Quotations from the old forums.

It is also clear that genetics alone will not produce a powerful telepath, and there was some speculation that telepathic contact with the mother during pregnancy, along with other environmental factors would be needed to produce a strong telepath. This is not dissimilar to the development of human brains, which require a great deal of nurture to not only develop cognitively, but even the macro scale physical structures.

It should also be pointed out that the Orgus took an isolationist approach, and we all know how well that worked out for them. It is clearly established in the context of the story that fortification and prolonging the time before eventual contact would be foolhardy at best. Instead of meeting the aliens on humanity's terms, waiting until they find us would give away the one advantage that we can bring to the bargaining table.

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