What are the terran military really useful for?

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Sweforce »

We know that the terran military are hoplessly outclassed against the the forces of the warring superpowers, the Loroi and the Umiak. So what are they really useful for? I came to think about barbarian hordes ravaging the countryside while fleeing something worse. We got lucky with the Orous, they where not escorted by remnants of their military so assualting Esperanza was not even an option. However, the next time we may not be as lucky. Think of it as the threat scenario of Battlestar Galactica looting helpless civilizations whose space they travel through. Not that they do but given opportunity and enough desperation a more villiaous version of the series could have been made. Star Trek does this from time when they make an "mirror universe" episode.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Well...

They're useful for training humans to operate human warfighting technology. That'll be important when the TCF starts getting tech imports from the Loroi Union that'll begin to make their craft actually useful in a fight. You'd have a high turnover rate, but I imagine all it would take to get some use out of Terran warships in a fight is to fit them with antimatter drives. Which would require the Loroi explain howthey make their fuel.

I'd recommend keeping warships like that in human space though. They'd be of very limited use in a Steppes fleet battle. This upgrade would just let them be useful as a self-defence force.

On the other hand, that's because our weapons wouldn't be up to par. Not unless we built a kilometre long spacecraft built around FEL Xaser loops or something. But what does a military use which has to keep up with warships, but doesn't have particularly strong weapons?

Auxiliaries. Military supply ships. Repair vessels. Fuel tankers. Ammunition colliers. These are things that we could produce quite easily if we had the antimatter engine technology.

Hell, since the Loroi use space fighters, we could even build carriers.

And Arioch has said that Terran spacecraft are held back by their engine tech, not by their inertial compensators (which, of course, have to be capable of getting through a system jump.)
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by GeoModder »

Not to mention the TCF will continue to be of use in its current main task, namely keeping the peace within TCA territory, and maintaining anti-piracy patrols.
Image

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

GeoModder wrote:Not to mention the TCF will continue to be of use in its current main task, namely keeping the peace within TCA territory, and maintaining anti-piracy patrols.
Though they don't need anything bigger than a cruiser to do that job.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

Whale
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:27 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Whale »

Not anything bigger than a DD.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

This discussion has been had before, on the Concept Fanart thread. The concensus seems to be that TCA ships are useful as scenery :lol: . On a more serious note, Arioch has noted that the inadequacy of the TCA military is what drives Alex's story, so it may not be worth discussing (as Arioch pointed out, for the purpose of the story, Alex IS humanity).
If you wish to speculate however, more stubborn forum users (guilty) have tried to suggest some niche roles. For instance, TCA ships might be useful as specialized point-defense vessels, using their high numbers of low-range laser mounts to shoot down more of the missile screens the Umiak use to cover their formations while tackling Loroi formations. This would free up the Loroi combatants' heavier and longer ranged plasma and particle weapons to engage the actual Umiak ships, rather than dealing with their missile screens as well. The problem with this idea, as evidenced by the battle Alex witnesses,is that Loroi ships maneuver, ''balooning'' around Umiak formations. TCA ships would have a hard time keeping up (lower acceleration), and would face the brunt of Umiak fire. And they have no screens and lower armor rating (though no risk of catastrophic explosion, a la Winter Tide, so compartmentalization would work far better). Highly dependent on rates of fire for TCA weapons (will have to check that), but perhaps still worth tanking into account at least.
Logistical tasks are another possible use. However, I sincerely doubt the Loroi would want to use dated and slow TCA cargoes and tankers for that. Remember, they already have 4 non-combat allies whose entire economy is probably geared towards NOTHING BUT supporting roles. Anything the TCA could do, the Barsam, Neridi , Pipolsid and Golim are already doing (probably better). The Loroi are on the ropes not because they can't deliver the supplies, but because they can't make enough of them, and even up-tech'd, I feel the small TCA economy would make little difference.
As a staging area, TCA space would be good, but still relatively far and hard to supply or defend. TCA space isn't that heavily industrialized yet (apart from Earth itself).
The only other use I could think of is against enemy battlestations, using mass drivers. Battlestations have far less maneuvering capabilities (around 5g if I remember correctly), and probably larger cross-sections, which would mean that Terran ships could engage them at far longer ranges. 2 big problems arise: 1) battlestations have heavier armor (though the insane damage kinetic rounds do would help mitigate that), probably heavier (read longer-ranged) weapons and point defenses;
2) Umiak use fleets for defense, not systems fixtures. At most, they could use TTKs as temporary emplacements (ultraheavies can still accelerate at 20g).
Mop-up duty while Loroi press on is another potential use (destroy planets, orbital facilities, etc). However, we have no indication that's actually a problem for the Union. The problem is GOING on the offensive.

Relevant thread: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... p?f=4&t=17

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by dragoongfa »

Having thought about this extensively humanity has only two things going for it.

First and the most obvious one; we have plenty of bodies available and we are good ground pounders because the majority of humanity's military is still locked in ground warfare. This also being the area where humans have a lot of experience.

The least obvious one but I believe sufficiently hinted:

A new and fresh perceptive about the war and the situation the Loroi find themselves in. Never underestimate the capability of a fresh pair of eyes to produce a different picture to the same problem, especially if the mind behind those eyes is sharp.

Alex is sharp and is a fresh pair of eyes. He will also draw plenty of attention to himself just by existing.

This doesn't mean that he will offer magnificent 'tactical' insight; quite the contrary I believe that his capability to think out of the box while running, will be the thing that will offer the necessary insight that would convince someone influential in the Loroi hierarchy to act accordingly.

Just a warning to Arioch although I don't believe he will fall into that trap: DON'T MAKE ALEX A MARY SUE.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Sweforce »

Everyone seem to have missed my point of defending against those fleeing from the war. Historically, many barbarian hordes have been fleeing from something worse. Someone that cannot defend against the might of the empires may try to retreat and if they are not as nice as the orgus, it can become a bloody conflict.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

You can't uproot an interstellar civilization like you could a medieval one. Starships need fuel (gathering stations, refining stations, etc), weapons (factories), food and much, much more. Very little chance to gather such a fleet unless the species would know it was going to be attacked long before the attack came. Even then, that would be more of a colonization fleet rather than a military one.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Sweforce »

Mr.Tucker wrote:You can't uproot an interstellar civilization like you could a medieval one. Starships need fuel (gathering stations, refining stations, etc), weapons (factories), food and much, much more. Very little chance to gather such a fleet unless the species would know it was going to be attacked long before the attack came. Even then, that would be more of a colonization fleet rather than a military one.
A colonization fleet guarded by military vessels. The Orgus came and gave us advanced warning about two interstellar empires fighting it out against each others. Others could have got the message as well in similar ways. Someone just a little bit ahead of humanity tech wise could make use of stuff we produce and why bother to pay for more fuel if you can just steal it. Just imagine how much damage the crew of a nuclear submarine could cause in a post apocalyptic world, or a surviving fleet even.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:You can't uproot an interstellar civilization like you could a medieval one. Starships need fuel (gathering stations, refining stations, etc), weapons (factories), food and much, much more. Very little chance to gather such a fleet unless the species would know it was going to be attacked long before the attack came. Even then, that would be more of a colonization fleet rather than a military one.
A colonization fleet guarded by military vessels. The Orgus came and gave us advanced warning about two interstellar empires fighting it out against each others. Others could have got the message as well in similar ways. Someone just a little bit ahead of humanity tech wise could make use of stuff we produce and why bother to pay for more fuel if you can just steal it. Just imagine how much damage the crew of a nuclear submarine could cause in a post apocalyptic world, or a surviving fleet even.
The problem in such scenario is logistics and the fact that you cannot trust the locals after essentially declaring war on them. Fuel, spare parts, food and everything consumable must be procured through a tightly secured avenue because the natives will make your life miserable every step of the way and everything they give you under duress will be suspect of sabotage..

Any such fleet that gets sent in such a mission must either be self sustaining (impossible in the Outsider universe) or have an easy, cheap, expedient and safe way to procure everything it needs; which is again impossible without the cooperation of the locals.

This ain't the type of a scenario where pillaging the countryside would provide enough sustenance for a force; any and all fleets that would attempt to invade without extensive logistical preparation are doomed to starve out of everything important.

Colonization is even more difficult than occupation since the invaders would also have to protect the civilians and provide necessary living necessities.

In the end even if the Orgus came with an armada twice the size of the TCA they would still be forced to cooperate with the TCA; they would eventually run out of fuel and food and the TCA would never give them something for nothing.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

dragoongfa wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:You can't uproot an interstellar civilization like you could a medieval one. Starships need fuel (gathering stations, refining stations, etc), weapons (factories), food and much, much more. Very little chance to gather such a fleet unless the species would know it was going to be attacked long before the attack came. Even then, that would be more of a colonization fleet rather than a military one.
A colonization fleet guarded by military vessels. The Orgus came and gave us advanced warning about two interstellar empires fighting it out against each others. Others could have got the message as well in similar ways. Someone just a little bit ahead of humanity tech wise could make use of stuff we produce and why bother to pay for more fuel if you can just steal it. Just imagine how much damage the crew of a nuclear submarine could cause in a post apocalyptic world, or a surviving fleet even.
The problem in such scenario is logistics and the fact that you cannot trust the locals after essentially declaring war on them. Fuel, spare parts, food and everything consumable must be procured through a tightly secured avenue because the natives will make your life miserable every step of the way and everything they give you under duress will be suspect of sabotage..

Any such fleet that gets sent in such a mission must either be self sustaining (impossible in the Outsider universe) or have an easy, cheap, expedient and safe way to procure everything it needs; which is again impossible without the cooperation of the locals.

This ain't the type of a scenario where pillaging the countryside would provide enough sustenance for a force; any and all fleets that would attempt to invade without extensive logistical preparation are doomed to starve out of everything important.

Colonization is even more difficult than occupation since the invaders would also have to protect the civilians and provide necessary living necessities.

In the end even if the Orgus came with an armada twice the size of the TCA they would still be forced to cooperate with the TCA; they would eventually run out of fuel and food and the TCA would never give them something for nothing.
Writing a coherent comment while half asleep is very difficult :D . Basically, as dragoongfa says, an invading fleet can't ''live off the land''. When I said ''colonization'', I was refering to self-sufficiency. Outsider has no agroships a la ''Battlestar Galactica'', no factory ships.If they exist, they're probably prone to attack, and require parts and fuel. All military vessels shown so far require supply lines. That's actually mentioned as being quite significant (see Loroi history on the Mannadi conflicts). Even the highly scavenging Umiak depend on them and planet-side facilities.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Which is kind of weird. I'm surprised there are no auxiliaries at all, which is why I suggested that (with antimatter engines) the TCA could build those.

Fleets in Outsider are dependent on supply lines because their fuel can only be manufactured in places that have a very high output power network. I suppose you could put that in space instead of on a planet, but you couldn't fit it on a single spacecraft, and it would be a high-value target. A fleet that used fusion engines could probably be self-sustaining (if they had a carrier or two for atmo-cruisers), but it would be highly vulnerable to any fleet that had antimatter engines that was near its supplier.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by dragoongfa »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Which is kind of weird. I'm surprised there are no auxiliaries at all, which is why I suggested that (with antimatter engines) the TCA could build those.

Fleets in Outsider are dependent on supply lines because their fuel can only be manufactured in places that have a very high output power network. I suppose you could put that in space instead of on a planet, but you couldn't fit it on a single spacecraft, and it would be a high-value target. A fleet that used fusion engines could probably be self-sustaining (if they had a carrier or two for atmo-cruisers), but it would be highly vulnerable to any fleet that had antimatter engines that was near its supplier.
The problem with Auxiliaries is that they have to be REALLY BIG in order to accommodate the manufacturing capability necessary to produce spare parts, to put it in RL terms, take a basic aircraft manufacturing plant, not the final assembly plant but a simple plant that manufactures just one system of the whole aircraft, let's say a wing.

Let me tell you, even such a factory is HUGE while the process itself requires the consumption of vast amounts of water and produces waste that needs to be properly disposed.

Auxiliaries in the sense of what the Lost Fleet portrays are hard to implement and generally speaking they are not worth the headache unless miniaturization and automation technology get beyond what we have imagined so far. Homeworld (the games) came close to how a spaceborn manufacturing plant would be with the Motherships but even they are considered too small. A true self sufficient mothership would need to be the size of a continent and be able to support a population of millions in order to be fully able to support a large enough fleet.

The only auxiliaries that the Outsider fleet could have could be fuel refineries and 'patching' ships that would be able to patch damaged ships with temporary armor.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Mr.Tucker »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Which is kind of weird. I'm surprised there are no auxiliaries at all, which is why I suggested that (with antimatter engines) the TCA could build those.

Fleets in Outsider are dependent on supply lines because their fuel can only be manufactured in places that have a very high output power network. I suppose you could put that in space instead of on a planet, but you couldn't fit it on a single spacecraft, and it would be a high-value target. A fleet that used fusion engines could probably be self-sustaining (if they had a carrier or two for atmo-cruisers), but it would be highly vulnerable to any fleet that had antimatter engines that was near its supplier.
I actually think the reason auxiliaries are not mentioned on the insider is because their not actually Loroi ships, but Barsam, Pipolsid and Neridi ships (do the Golim actually have starships of their own?They're mentioned as being more primitive, but how primitive?). The allies do the liftin', the Loroi do the fighting. The TCA has to do both for itself, so tankers and cargoes get mentioned.
Tamat reactors are one of the 3 key techs humanity lacks, so I'm not sure the Loroi would give it to them readily.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Exactly why do you think construction auxiliaries would need to be huge? Aircraft factories are so massive because they need to produce thousands of the same part continuously. A 500 metre long auxiliary with a battery of laser sintering 3D printers could conceivably produce a wide array of parts, and what they would produce would depend on what the fleet needs at the time (rather than the assembly-line factories you were talking about, which make stuff because there is a constant demand for it.)

Auxiliaries in The Lost Fleet seem to combine the roles of manufacturer and supply vessels, resulting in something that has far too much mass for its thrust and thus slows the rest of the fleet down. Separate vessels would allow all vessels to have the same high accelerations. More vessels means more redundancy. Smaller vessels means they're a less inviting target. Plus, if they are separate, that means a supply vessel can shuttle between a mining vessel and a manufacturer.

As for "A true self sufficient mothership would need to be the size of a continent and be able to support a population of millions in order to be fully able to support a large enough fleet.", I really don't understand where you're coming from. Nations that only cover a very small area of land can still have the manufacturing capability to build huge fleets (IE Britain, Japan) if they have access to the materials (which space would give you.)

Hell, you could probably fit 3D printers on individual vessels just for pumping out missiles so long as you have the supplies.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by dragoongfa »

RedDwarfIV wrote:Exactly why do you think construction auxiliaries would need to be huge? Aircraft factories are so massive because they need to produce thousands of the same part continuously. A 500 metre long auxiliary with a battery of laser sintering 3D printers could conceivably produce a wide array of parts, and what they would produce would depend on what the fleet needs at the time (rather than the assembly-line factories you were talking about, which make stuff because there is a constant demand for it.)

Auxiliaries in The Lost Fleet seem to combine the roles of manufacturer and supply vessels, resulting in something that has far too much mass for its thrust and thus slows the rest of the fleet down. Separate vessels would allow all vessels to have the same high accelerations. More vessels means more redundancy. Smaller vessels means they're a less inviting target. Plus, if they are separate, that means a supply vessel can shuttle between a mining vessel and a manufacturer.

As for "A true self sufficient mothership would need to be the size of a continent and be able to support a population of millions in order to be fully able to support a large enough fleet.", I really don't understand where you're coming from. Nations that only cover a very small area of land can still have the manufacturing capability to build huge fleets (IE Britain, Japan) if they have access to the materials (which space would give you.)

Hell, you could probably fit 3D printers on individual vessels just for pumping out missiles so long as you have the supplies.
I failed to make clear that I was talking about completely self sufficient type of auxiliary ships, the kind of which you send out and never think about again unless it has a catastrophic accident (this way of thinking is part of my original fiction novel, you are free to ignore this).

I think that you are overestimating the potential use of 3d printers in manufacturing complex equipment. To do what you describe the future 3d printers must be able to simultaneously work with numerous materials on at least the nanometer level (that's the level modern microchips are crafted), while they will also have to do so while being able process certain materials on all 3 of their existence stages (solid, liquid and gas, perhaps 4 if something in the future requires to be in the plasma state to be processable). We are not talking about simple parts here, we are talking about very advanced high tech equipment. I can imagine a 3d printer being able to create very basic and simple objects but beyond that level, 3d printers must become crazy in order to create complex equipment.

The only foreseeable and realistic way to manufacture stuff if through the old fashioned assembly line and those are huge.

Zakharra
Posts: 165
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:46 am

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by Zakharra »

The auxiliary ships would be large, but they could also have multipurpose assembly/manufacturing lines(and being of several layers/levels). The use of lasers, advanced milling machines and such could likely condense the space a fully automated factory needs by quite a bit. One of the biggest problems though would be manufacturing large pieces, ie large pieces of hull plating. Engines, electronic and internal components of the ships are likely able to be made in much smaller pieces (the Erector Set ships :D ). Such auxiliary ships would be expensive as all get out, bulky and slow as hell, and a orbital installation could likely do a better and faster job on massive repairs, but having mobile repair auxiliaries, even big clumsy ones, would be invaluable in keeping the front line fleets fighting longer because they are -there- at or just behind the front lines. And mobile.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by dragoongfa »

Zakharra wrote:The auxiliary ships would be large, but they could also have multipurpose assembly/manufacturing lines(and being of several layers/levels). The use of lasers, advanced milling machines and such could likely condense the space a fully automated factory needs by quite a bit. One of the biggest problems though would be manufacturing large pieces, ie large pieces of hull plating. Engines, electronic and internal components of the ships are likely able to be made in much smaller pieces (the Erector Set ships :D ). Such auxiliary ships would be expensive as all get out, bulky and slow as hell, and a orbital installation could likely do a better and faster job on massive repairs, but having mobile repair auxiliaries, even big clumsy ones, would be invaluable in keeping the front line fleets fighting longer because they are -there- at or just behind the front lines. And mobile.
The problem then lies with the jumpdrive tech of the outsider universe and energy consuming it is. Would a ship that would easily be twice the size of an Ultraheavy be able to jump even with the Loroi energy technology?

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: What are the terran military really useful for?

Post by GeoModder »

dragoongfa wrote:The problem then lies with the jumpdrive tech of the outsider universe and energy consuming it is. Would a ship that would easily be twice the size of an Ultraheavy be able to jump even with the Loroi energy technology?
At least one of the precursor empires (the Soia if I'm not mistaken) jumped with ships the size of moons between the stars. According to the Insider that is.
Image

Post Reply