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Page 103 discussion. 
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Awesome! Page 103! Grats Arioch for getting another beautiful piece created and posted. Also, I would personally pay $10 per page of updates via Patreon.


Sun May 03, 2015 2:13 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
:o Holy crap, a new page :!: :o


Sun May 03, 2015 8:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.


It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P


Mon May 04, 2015 2:32 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Grayhome wrote:
Awesome! Page 103! Grats Arioch for getting another beautiful piece created and posted. Also, I would personally pay $10 per page of updates via Patreon.

Well, he does have a PayPal donation link. :-)

I went with $1 a month, that won't break the bank and it might work out well if enough people were to chip in each month.


Mon May 04, 2015 5:21 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.


It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P

He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.

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Mon May 04, 2015 6:18 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Also on the basis that they had early successes when he overrode his generals.


Mon May 04, 2015 8:39 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
RedDwarfIV wrote:

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.


Corporal, learn to history :P :mrgreen:

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Mon May 04, 2015 9:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.


It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P

He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.


Bad advice becomes a problem when you decides to follow them. An outside view can be useful but ultimately they cannot jut let him run the show but maybe he have inspirational suggestions. Are the loroi really "better" then humans? They have longevity, in theory but they have lost a lot off people and been replaced with what would be children on earth. Rapid maturity are a physical thing, experience takes time even if sanzai allow for faster education. Are they really good at "thinking outside the box"? Do they listen to advice from their allies?

Why do they still run on a caste system when we have abandoned cast systems when we found them ineffective? There is little use for infantry in this war, still the loroi keep huge armies that are virtually "twiddling their thumbs" instead of transferring the surplus into the civilian sector where they can be useful producing resources for the war. They appear to be a designed race, if so they may be worse of when attempting to do things outside what they are designed to do. They keep their defeated former enemies under occupation for centuries, this is a waste of resources, it is much better to make true peace and turn them into allies instead, as we we do. Perpetual occupation makes for perpetual hostility.

If the humans been allowed a few more centuries of progress we would have caught up with the loroi union technologically due to our more rapid progress, established more colonies and buildt a larger fleet. With let's say two hundred more years the tech difference would be so small that it would be easy to absorb the differences. So no, the loroi are not "better" then humans, they are better at some things but they have severe drawbacks as well.


Mon May 04, 2015 11:13 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
The caste system works for them. Why would they abandon what works?


Mon May 04, 2015 11:58 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
I partially agree with Sweforce here, on the Loroi being socially inneficient; however I speculate that it ain't the caste system that is the cause of Loroi social inneficiency but their greatest gift, which is their telepathy.

To put it simply innovation thrives when the mind is allowed to 'wander' in unexplored avenues but telepathy puts a huge weight on 'wandering' minds due to extreme peer pressure on how to act and most importantly how to think. When everyone within a certain range can feel the thoughts of others and the only way to maintain one's self is to put up and maintain mental barriers then the time to leave one's mind to wander takes a significant beating.

The caste system is a byproduct of this, I believe that it isn't an equivalent of our past caste systems (our caste systems were akin to justifiable slavery while Loroi lower castes may have limited rights but they are not and never were slaves) but something that has to do with creating a relatively safe environment to express ones thoughts without suffering much of a backlash. To be inducted into a caste one has to go through rigorous training and those that manage to go through it are members of that caste for life. I guess that caste members respect each other for this simple fact and that they 'tolerate' divergent thoughts within members of their caste simply because they are caste mates.

To add to this think who are the natural philosophers of the Loroi; those are the limited but well protected males. I imagine that there is a taboo in harming a male and that would allow for the males to have a divergent pattern of thinking, becoming philosophers and breakthrough thinkers. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Loroi technological breakthroughs (those that themselves invented) were made by males.

Humans on the other hand like divergent thoughts, in fact even within largely homogenous nations one can find any type of free thinker. This is what allowed us to progress when restrictive authoritarian practices were disposed of.

I don't see a way for the Loroi to become 'progressive' due to their telepathy, it's something deeply ingrained in them. Perhaps a mentally mature Loroi civilian population that would migrate to human controlled space would be able to adopt certain human traits of thinking but that would depend on a lot of factors.

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Last edited by dragoongfa on Tue May 05, 2015 6:00 am, edited 3 times in total.



Tue May 05, 2015 12:31 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
If it turns out that what is used to block fareers are technological and can be captured, then it may even be reverse engineered and improved upon. Let's say there could be a "mind blocking" device that could be worn as a headgear and available to the masses. Then when a loroi, or one of their scannable allies could use this to get some private time. This could be a great stress release. While sensory deprivation can be used for torture, some people actually use it as a sort of therapy. Sometimes we just want to be left alone and undisturbed.


Tue May 05, 2015 12:55 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Sweforce wrote:
If it turns out that what is used to block fareers are technological and can be captured, then it may even be reverse engineered and improved upon. Let's say there could be a "mind blocking" device that could be worn as a headgear and available to the masses. Then when a loroi, or one of their scannable allies could use this to get some private time. This could be a great stress release. While sensory deprivation can be used for torture, some people actually use it as a sort of therapy. Sometimes we just want to be left alone and undisturbed.


I wear wax earplugs when I write and sleep for a reason :P

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Tue May 05, 2015 1:08 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Sweforce wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P

He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.

If the humans been allowed a few more centuries of progress we would have caught up with the loroi union technologically due to our more rapid progress, established more colonies and buildt a larger fleet. With let's say two hundred more years the tech difference would be so small that it would be easy to absorb the differences. So no, the loroi are not "better" then humans, they are better at some things but they have severe drawbacks as well.
[/quote][/quote]
I don't think anyone in that quote chain said or implied that Loroi were better than humans. What I said was that Alex's experience means very little given the massive differences in technology between the spacecraft he trained with, and the spacecraft the Loroi use. To get outside the box thinking, you first have to know what the box is. What is Loroi doctrine? How might it be improved? Can Alex get access to simulators to test possible modifications to tactics with?



As for Corporal, that's what I originally thought he was, but Wikipedia said he reached the rank of 'Gefreiter', and that it was equivalent to NATO OR-2. In both the British and American armies, that's a Private. Damn it, Wikipedia, I trusted you!

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Tue May 05, 2015 5:16 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
RedDwarfIV wrote:
As for Corporal, that's what I originally thought he was, but Wikipedia said he reached the rank of 'Gefreiter', and that it was equivalent to NATO OR-2. In both the British and American armies, that's a Private. Damn it, Wikipedia, I trusted you!


Its not because British and American armies don't recognize the rank of lance-corporal (or second/vice corporal or whatever other name), that others follow suit. *shrugs*

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Tue May 05, 2015 11:25 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.


Sun May 10, 2015 1:22 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Voitan wrote:
I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.


I could be totally wrong, but if memory serves, he was the academy chess champion and my understanding was that chess is fairly straightforward and orthodox for a strategy game. Again I could be wrong. That being said, if I am indeed correct, then he may not just be good at lateral thinking and strategic applications of lateral thinking but also have a good understanding of more orthodox strategy and its uses. We are told people in the academy are the best and brightest humanity has and the fleet really wanted him for war games, I think he is a strategic genius.

Whether or not he is the second coming of Bonaparte or Hannibal remains to be seen however.


Sun May 10, 2015 8:14 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
NuclearIceCream wrote:
Voitan wrote:
I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.


I could be totally wrong, but if memory serves, he was the academy chess champion and my understanding was that chess is fairly straightforward and orthodox for a strategy game. Again I could be wrong. That being said, if I am indeed correct, then he may not just be good at lateral thinking and strategic applications of lateral thinking but also have a good understanding of more orthodox strategy and its uses. We are told people in the academy are the best and brightest humanity has and the fleet really wanted him for war games, I think he is a strategic genius.

Whether or not he is the second coming of Bonaparte or Hannibal remains to be seen however.


The problem is that top of the class at the academy doesn't mean top field commanders:

General Patton had difficulty with reading and writing and even his best academic performance was considered average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

Field Marshal Zhukov was at first a conscript in WW1, later a NCO and ended up being credited with a key role in halting Nazi Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Eisenhower was an average student with a tainted disciplinary record, he ended up becoming the Supreme Commander of the Allied forces and later became the 34th US president

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower

Montgomery was nearly expelled from the military academy for disciplinary reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Mo ... of_Alamein

Douglas MacArthur stands as the odd one out when compared with other successful Allied Generals of the time, with exemplary academic performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur

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Sun May 10, 2015 8:41 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Academic performance is not always a perfect predictor of battlefield performance (Robert E. Lee was second in his class at West Point with a spotless record, while Ulysses S. Grant was an average student), but being at the top of your class does suggest that you're pretty smart.

During WWII, Eisenhower, Zhukov and MacArthur were high-level commanders (Chiefs of Staff or theater Supreme Commanders) who seldom personally directed troops in the field. The skills that allow one to excel at this level are administration and high-level decision making, rather than tactical ability.

As far as I'm aware, those generals known for tactical excellence (Patton, Lee, Napoleon) usually won through a combination of superior preparation, aggressive action, the willingness to take risks, and the ability to draw correct conclusions in the face of incomplete information. I don't think "lateral thinking" was often a factor in the outcome of battles.

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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
awesome a new page.

The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.

Telepathic communication will always be limited over long distances People are not machines. A lot of telepathic communication "bandwidth" will be wasted including emotions, etc. So short messages would always be the case over great distance. The battle in naam is evidence of that. they use radio to communicate ship to ship.

farseer's detect presence, and living organisms. They can count, and thus know if the enemy has 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 personnel in system. Those numbers lead to obvious fleet arrangements. The umiak genetically engineer themselves. What if they induced a coma to 75% of the crew. At that range could a farseer detect them? It takes hours to jump in a system and move onward. That is plenty of time to bring the crew up to combat abilities. especially if you genetically engineer them to be able to do that. So the Loroi farseer would sense 100 minds, and then hours before combat sense 1,000. They would be out matched. (exact number made up to illustrate point, I don't see the umiak using extreme automation to do the same thing)


Mon May 11, 2015 6:09 am
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
peragrin wrote:
The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.

There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.

peragrin wrote:
farseer's detect presence, and living organisms. They can count, and thus know if the enemy has 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 personnel in system. Those numbers lead to obvious fleet arrangements. The umiak genetically engineer themselves. What if they induced a coma to 75% of the crew. At that range could a farseer detect them? It takes hours to jump in a system and move onward. That is plenty of time to bring the crew up to combat abilities. especially if you genetically engineer them to be able to do that. So the Loroi farseer would sense 100 minds, and then hours before combat sense 1,000. They would be out matched. (exact number made up to illustrate point, I don't see the umiak using extreme automation to do the same thing)

Farseers detect not only thoughts but some sort of ''sentience signal'' minds give off. At least, that's how I understand it. We don't really know if they would have trouble detecting a mind that is comatose or asleep. That's something Arioch can better answer. Also farsense is dependant on distance and interference from other sentients. They apparently don't count the minds they see, rather they take educated guesses about the numbers present. They would still be detected the moment they jumped into the systems, and then it becomes a problem of how fast they would be in fighting condition. Also, I think the Loroi would interdict even small, 100 strong fleets before they reach the fortified worlds. Or at least scout them ahead. That's what the no-man's lands were created for.


Mon May 11, 2015 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Now all we have to do is wait a few more years for page 104! Okay now its time for me to be proven wrong!

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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
Mr.Tucker wrote:
peragrin wrote:
The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.

There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.

What about over communications links?

The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.

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Mon May 11, 2015 8:02 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
RedDwarfIV wrote:

The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.


Not normally but the Soia made the loroi a very thorough copy of humans, we see that in the comic, and Beryl can laugh. Interestingly thou when the barsam envoy get angered he to are very readable as such. It is almost like if the true soia originated from earth as a now lost civilization and placed these stuff in not only the loroi but other of their created races. However it is also just as likely that this is an author oversight.


Tue May 12, 2015 8:34 pm
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Post Re: Page 103 discussion.
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
peragrin wrote:
The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.

There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.

What about over communications links?

The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.


There was a thread on the topic expressions awhile ago. Loroi body language is similar to ours and they're at least as expressive as us. Even if we're immune to their telepathy, they can get a read on us if they're paying attention to what we're doing. It would work in the other direction, too.

As for reading the expressions of species with less human-like features, e.g., the Umiak, Alex could very well have trouble interpreting them.


Tue May 12, 2015 8:50 pm
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