Uncanny resemblance.

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Darth Cloaked Guy
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Darth Cloaked Guy »

Slight deviation from topic (related via Syreen):

I find it completely awesome that you also like Star Control II, Arioch. If your awesomeness level was otherwise at infinity, well, this is infinity plus one.

Voitan
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Voitan »

Karst45 wrote:
Voitan wrote:Their hair is blue, but their skin being so pale as to appear blue while in a low light enviroment, such as when they are lit by the light from their info screens.
I think it more of a way to represent low light/night by using more blue shading than it is the hair reflecting on the skin.
You didn't actually read my post did you?

Karst45
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Karst45 »

Voitan wrote:
Karst45 wrote:
Voitan wrote:Their hair is blue, but their skin being so pale as to appear blue while in a low light enviroment, such as when they are lit by the light from their info screens.
I think it more of a way to represent low light/night by using more blue shading than it is the hair reflecting on the skin.
You didn't actually read my post did you?

well with the quantity of wall of there there is here, you cant blame me for reading quickly.

Tash
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Tash »

Darth Cloaked Guy wrote:Sorry, no, gelatinous space octopi with glowing eyes would be unable to fill the Lorikin role in the narrative.

Specifically, that of answering the question of "what happened to the elves?"

I suppose they COULD, in THEORY, be some sort of extradimensional horror that replaced the space-elves after being somehow summoned there through experimentation
Nnnot what I meant.
I'm talking about the plot at its most basic level, 'Officer X does Fleet Action Y' or 'Polity X enacts Measure Y' for example, not literally removing your characters for a permanent time.
If X can be swapped out for X sub 1, your story holds water because it doesn't rely just on the species, but rather on action.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with space elves- to the contrary, they make a lovely framing device- but rather that a story that focuses too much on species, like a story that spends ages going on about the technology inside, starts to drag and feel flat, because in a story, skin is just skin; Outsider would be just as cool if it were space serpents and silicoid dog people in place of Loroi and Umiak, because the plot elements work at a basic level that doesn't require species to be cohesive.

Just my opinion, I suppose. I can only comment based on my lens of perception. ;)

Darth Cloaked Guy
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Darth Cloaked Guy »

Tash wrote:Nnnot what I meant.
I'm talking about the plot at its most basic level, 'Officer X does Fleet Action Y' or 'Polity X enacts Measure Y' for example, not literally removing your characters for a permanent time.
If X can be swapped out for X sub 1, your story holds water because it doesn't rely just on the species, but rather on action.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with space elves- to the contrary, they make a lovely framing device- but rather that a story that focuses too much on species, like a story that spends ages going on about the technology inside, starts to drag and feel flat, because in a story, skin is just skin; Outsider would be just as cool if it were space serpents and silicoid dog people in place of Loroi and Umiak, because the plot elements work at a basic level that doesn't require species to be cohesive.

Just my opinion, I suppose. I can only comment based on my lens of perception. ;)
Ah. Well, I don't have any plot at that sort of level yet, I'm still working on developing the setting. Gotta build the box before you fill it with sand and dig in with your little plastic shovels, you know?

Besides, you haven't seen me write narrative. Oh god is it ever horrible. I'm pretty much stuck with trying to write interesting expository.

Aygar
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Aygar »

Arioch wrote:The human main character is a pipsqueak who's only important because his father sold his own people out to the Abh, and he's only on of the side of the Abh because he's got the hots for an Abh princess.
To be fair IIRC it was less father selling out, and more Abh responsibility dodging. The negotiations when something like this.

President of Planet: "We are here to negotiate our surrender"
Commander of Abh fleet: "You have anti-space weaponry, our law says that non-Abh can't have control anything that can interferer with Abh control of space. I don't want to be governor of your planet, so I am elevating you to Abh nobility (thus making the president of the planet a Abh in the eyes of Abh law) and making this planet your fiefdom. Thus resolving any problems with Abh law. This concludes our negotiations."

--Aygar
--Aygar

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Arioch
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Arioch »

If you surrender your people to a hostile power and you are rewarded by being made dictator for life and elevated to the enemy nobility, then that's called "selling out."

I don't mean to give the wrong impression -- the series is well worth watching if just for the space battles, which are quite interesting. (Heck, I watched all of Starship Operators for the space battles.) But the Abh are bat-shit-crazy tyrants and the attempts in the narrative to justify their actions are junk wonky. And as I pointed out, the main character is less than compelling.

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manticore7
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by manticore7 »

with the exeption of planet Martine I don't find ether of the two sides particulary sympathetic. I mean we have the obviously imperialistic Humankind Empire Ahb who's laws are Draconian and who punish dissent with burning away a planets atmosphere ( they say there is no malice behind it but thats a small comfort). on the other hand we have the United Mankind who's "Citizen's Rule" reminds me of the Alliance from Firefly they seem to be be big on conformity and "proper" human behavior along with the stringent methods those beliefs entail. keep in mind I'm going by the Anime and the Manga.
"Worlds governed by artificial intelligence often learned a hard lesson, Logic doesn't care"
Andromeda season 2 episode 6 All too Human

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Arioch
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Arioch »

Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.

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Sprawl63
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Sprawl63 »

Arioch wrote:Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.
I had always thought that the Aph motivation was to eliminate war by controlling the star lanes (at least from what I gathered in the anime). When the Aph first struck back and destroyed their creators, they were immediately disgusted at what they did and resolved to stop it from ever happening again. Of course, its definitely an ends-justify-the-means approach. However, they seem pretty open to accept normal humans into the aristocracy and let them remain autonomous on the ground as long as they accept that the Aph control the star lanes. And the alliance they are up against seem pretty adamant on committing genocide on the Aph themselves. As for as galaxy conqueror's go, they aren't so bad.

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icekatze
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

So they decide to eliminate war by waging the biggest war ever... Must be a calculus thing, cause to me that doesn't add up. :P

The implication that humanity is not, or will never be capable of self governance is one of those recurring themes that pops up in a lot of places these days, much to my dismay. But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling. Its a thread that grabbed my attention in Outsider because by default humanity is self governed, but is forced by external circumstance to potentially give that up for the sake of survival.

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Ktrain
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Ktrain »

Sprawl63 wrote:And the alliance they are up against seem pretty adamant on committing genocide on the Aph themselves. As for as galaxy conqueror's go, they aren't so bad.
It seems pretty natural that the rest of mankind wishes to exterminate out an overtly aggressive power which has committed planetside on numerous occasions, waged unprovoked wars time and time again and wishes to consolidate all political/economic authority into an aristocracy made up of only 30 million people (when mankind numbers in the trillions).
Arioch wrote:Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.
Sometimes I feel Crest of the Stars was a commentary on the Asian Co-prosperity Sphere and the double speak that was used to rationalize it, since it seems that it's told from an Ahb perspective.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

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Arioch
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling.
I agree absolutely; it's all about the story and characters and whether it works. Crest of the Stars is really about Abriel (the Abh princess), and she's compelling enough to keep you interested. Unfortunately, the human character who is supposed to be the protagonist is not very compelling at all. But that's probably intentional... a lot of anime/manga properties have almost faceless teengage male protagonists, meant to serve as proxies for the teenage male viewers.

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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Darth Cloaked Guy »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

So they decide to eliminate war by waging the biggest war ever... Must be a calculus thing, cause to me that doesn't add up. :P

The implication that humanity is not, or will never be capable of self governance is one of those recurring themes that pops up in a lot of places these days, much to my dismay. But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling. Its a thread that grabbed my attention in Outsider because by default humanity is self governed, but is forced by external circumstance to potentially give that up for the sake of survival.
If I might use Star Control II as a parallel...
SpoilerShow
The Ur-Quan were once a brown-skinned race of highly territorial apex predators that barely managed civilization, and did so through sheer force of will. When they reached the stars and joined the Sentient Milieu, they acted as lone scouts and eventually came across the world of the Dnyarri, a race of impossibly powerful psychic power and also impossibly potent pure evil, that then mentally enslaved the entire species. Using unimaginable pain, they were able to overthrow their psychic captors and escape slavery.
To ensure they'd never be enslaved again, the two Ur-Quan subraces, the Kzer-Za and the Kohr-Ah, each followed their path-- conquering the galaxy so as to never be enslaved again. The Kzer-Za principle was a simple one: Conquer everyone. Willing species would become battle thralls and join the Kzer-Za war machine. Unwilling species would be trapped on their homeworlds beneath nigh-impenetrable force fields.

Kohr-Ah principle was even simpler: Eradicate all intelligent life in the galaxy besides Ur-Quan.

Both fought to ensure that when they were finished, they'd never need to wage war again.

Karst45
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Karst45 »

Arioch wrote:Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.
Take note that often Japanese anim are a reflection of how they see other "power" compared to their own.

CptWinters
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by CptWinters »

Yeah, I thought that whole show was pretty clearly a denouncement of the American/Western democratic ideal.

discord
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by discord »

well, i can't really disagree on the 'dislike democracy' thing, why you ask?
simple really, to actually understand what the hell you are voting on you basically need a degree in national economics, international politics and history, now if you have a heart problem, and you need heart surgery, who would you prefer a medical doctor or a politics Phd to perform the operation?

and that is still assuming that politicos don't lie, so you ALSO need a Phd in reading poker faces....it's just silly.

don't take me the wrong way, in any functional society the 'masses' need somewhere to make their voice heard, but using it to elect the only ruling body? that is crazy.

TrashMan
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by TrashMan »

Arioch wrote:
icekatze wrote:But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling.
I agree absolutely; it's all about the story and characters and whether it works. Crest of the Stars is really about Abriel (the Abh princess), and she's compelling enough to keep you interested. Unfortunately, the human character who is supposed to be the protagonist is not very compelling at all. But that's probably intentional... a lot of anime/manga properties have almost faceless teengage male protagonists, meant to serve as proxies for the teenage male viewers.

It irks me very much when an anime falls short of it's possible potential. Some f*** up the last few episodes, some f*** up the delivery, some the charaacters, some the narrative...
How many times did you go and say to yourself "this could have been soooooo much better if ..."

And LoGH was probably all about politics and governance....

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icekatze
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Its not really that unusual of a character dynamic. If it had been a Hollywood action movie, the princess would have been the hero, and the boy would have been the attractive female tagalong.

Alexandr Koori
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Re: Uncanny resemblance.

Post by Alexandr Koori »

( by mr Chekov's voice )
In the first time blue-skinned aliens appear in Tolstoy's novel "Aelita" in 1923 year. What is interesting - Aelita - princess of Mars. She is tall, willed, and she have a bodyguard (and distant cousin) Iha - agile and positive girl.

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