Outcast Quest [Updated 10/10/18 - Turn 14]

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Absalom
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by Absalom »

I've decided to aim for "wierdness".

[X] Strange Corkscrew Structures
[X] Vile Cysts
[X] Pulsating Membrane

dragoongfa wrote:The Diaphram and the corkscrew structures sound related to their sonar like abilities.
Why would "corkscrew" say "sonar" to you? Do you think sound here is circularly polarized or something?
dragoongfa wrote:Well...

I would say that the Brain is a must at first glance. Since the whales do not show any signs of Jump sickness the nervous system must have something to do with it.
Which I expect won't be translatable to Humanity any faster than just researching Jump Sickness. Any benefit from Brain will probably be from something else.
dragoongfa wrote:The Viscous substance and the vile cysts sound weird at first but they may be related to their immune system with everything that entails in medical research.
Vile Cysts are probably either what you think, or some sort of reproductive/excretory/etc system. I suppose that they could use them for sound detection (ala Ampullae of Lorenzini), but that's all I can think of.

The Viscous Substance, on the other hand, makes me think "blood", and "slug/hagfish slime". Blood is of course commonly related to immune function, but we don't actually know where this stuff came from. It could be breast milk, for instance.
dragoongfa wrote:Skeletal and Circulatory system would show us any potential weakness.
Or maybe they'll have a useful substance, e.g. carbon nanotubes.
dragoongfa wrote:The Pulsating Membrane, I don't know what that will be.
Maybe a fetus, maybe an "escape organ" that can take the most recent of the whale's memories and start the maturation process again, maybe a parasite, maybe a biological tracking device.

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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by Razor One »

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Krulle
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by Krulle »

Starting to join you. Started reading up a bit, while having followed this thread the last round....

Brain? Why research that? Just killing the wonders of vacuum-life alone is an ethical problem. Are these whales that common, or do we know of only one or two groups? Once the brain tells us these Whales are sapient-able, we should stop. Just take the cynical approach and leave that for later. Whatever we can learn there we cannot use for ourselves anyway, we would have to modify Humans to a degree that they would stop being Humans.
[edit]Absalom already had the same idea. It would help checking for a new page before answering... d'uh![/edit]

We do not know much about their biosphere yet, so observation may be more useful before examining their digestive tracts. Once we've seen them eat, we know more. And if they "eat" and breakdown asteroids and re-compose that matter, we will find the remains even if they are fully decomposed.
Skeletal system should be able to resist decomposing a bit longer anyway. We should be able to research parts of that even after decomposing of the corpse.

For that reason, my choices would be rather random and pointed towards things which decompose fast. Like organs, circulatory systems, cysts, brain, viscous substance, ...

The pulsating membrane may be their defecatory organ. Somehow even vacuum organisms need to get rid of accumulating poisonous matter. A membrane to kick it out into space may be their way, as they still need to seal against vacuum.


Or have I missed things we already know about the Whales?
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dragoongfa
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

Voted:

[x]Brain
[x]Corkscrew structures
[x]Viscous substance

Mostly stuff that I believed would offer some insights about the whales themselves.

Absalom
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by Absalom »

Voted as I previously said.
Krulle wrote:A membrane to kick it out into space may be their way, as they still need to seal against vacuum.


Or have I missed things we already know about the Whales?
Well, there is the fact that we've never actually seen them inside of a vacuum, hence why sonar works here.

One of the possible concerns with hunting whales is that the local super-power is not the Loroi, but instead a silicon-based species that considers carbon-based species to be tools... and creates such. So we might be interfering with someone else's mining operation.

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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 27/7/16 - Turn 12 Results]

Post by Razor One »

Survey Closed. Apologies for the delay, a lot of stuff came up.

Here's what you got.

Tactical Turn Results

[X] Stomach Contents

Probing the stomach contents of a filter feeding organism the size of a football field was an interesting experience for most of your scientists. And by interesting, they meant creepy and unnerving. Still, they did discover a lot about the whales diet. It seems that they mostly feed on the gases of the jovian-like environment itself, filtering in heavy particles that then get broken down and digested by various enzymes and acids, same as most any other living organism really. Such particles can vary from micro-fine dust not all to different from proplyd material to chunks as large as their mouths can stretch.

Fortunately it seems that the whales themselves have no teeth, so it's highly doubtful that they're carnivorous. That seems to be the Manta's evolutionary niche.

Further investigation did reveal something quite useful though. A beneficial gut bacteria was found that is highly efficient at breaking down organic molecules. Samples and testing reveal they could have an enormous benefit to any organic recycling measures you care to implement.

Reward: Stomach Contains Beneficial Microbe, +100% to Recycling Tanks

[X] The Brain

Whales on Earth are believed to be intelligent, even if their language is an uncrackable mess of metaphor and impenetrable cultural references to which you have no reference points. Many of your scientists were both excited and afraid that they'd gone out and killed the Whale's equivalent of Mozart, Picasso, or Einstein.

They needn't have worried. The whales are as dumb as a doorknocker. Dumber in fact. Though their brains are quite large in comparison to even the brainiest terran creature, the neurons are too spread out for them to have any sort of coordinated and focused intellect, being more akin to dullest cows. They have enough intelligence to smell out new sources of food, to breed, to recognise danger, and so forth, but abstract reasoning, language and even self awareness are questionable. As one report put it "They have more in common with a terran fish than they do a terran whale."

Reward: Knowledge on Whale Intellect, +10 to future Whale Hunts

[X] Strange Corkscrew Structures

While your other research teams were covering the more familiar structures to expand your knowledge about the whales in general, these structures piqued the interest of many, having no earthly equivalent of any kind.

They set to work eagerly, though carefully, dissecting the structures in order to determine precisely what they were for.

After much consternation and debate, along with some plain observation, your scientists have determined that these corkscrews are a unique form of propulsion. A series of microstructures cover the surfaces of the corkscrew. As gas passes over them, a strange electrochemical effect occurs, with the resulting gas escaping the structure faster than it entered. The result is propulsion, allowing the whales to move their bulk with much more agility than a mere flipper could muster, though they seem to have retained those structures for attitude control.

The corkscrew propulsor is able to vary its width and length, and thus the strength of its propulsive effect, as well as close off altogether, allowing the whale to stop. Reversing the direction of the corkscrew seems to have the reverse effect, allowing the whales to slow down without turning.

Your scientists believe that they can replicate the structure for the most part for incorporation into the drone designs that were drawn up a while back. Additionally, they believe that a propulsion module could be added onto the L'Amour's outer engine block that would allow for faster transit within the Briar Patch. For obvious reasons, this propulsive method only works within your home region of space.

Reward: Unique Propulsion, Corkscrew Propulsion Module (Requires Drydock): Reduces transit time to exit Briar Patch down to one week (two months by default), +200 Drone Research

--

So, you got some fairly nice bonuses, and there are definitely more in the wings. Whale hunting will be a repeatable military action which will result in further tactical turns, but bear in mind that while the whales are essentially stupid, they're not completely dumb and will wise up to your hunting them over time or if you roll poorly.

As an aside, if you succeed on your next whale hunt, you can repeat these actions again, though your bonuses will be slightly lower.

I need to do some bookeeping cleanup and rolls for the end of your first year as a colony. So far you've done well. :twisted:
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Tamri
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Tamri »

I propose in the future continue to explore the impeller, and the other two options take something incomprehensible, like membrane, for example.

Nice work, Razor.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

Nice...

The Recycling center now got very sexy in the build order, we also got the upgrade that helps with the hunting so that's an extra bonus.

The propulsion module and drone research stuff are great but I got one question in regards to the Briar patch.

Does the transit time of two months is the time needed to go from one end of the Briar patch to the other or from where Niflheim is to its edge?

EDIT: Also since Whale hunting takes 2 turns does this mean that we will get an other tactical turn or does this mean that the whalers need to take some down time?

EDIT2: Also how many whales are there in the Briar patch?

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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Razor One »

Transit time is from your current position to the edge nearest to Loroi space. It used to be a month but you've drifted further in over the past year. Most of that was because of fuel limitations and top speed considerations in a dense atmosphere. Your engines are designed for vacuum after all, and your hull isn't fully aerodynamic. The Corkscrew propellers basically circumvent most of your problems.

The whale hunting option hasn't been updated since you first encountered the whales in a scouting mission. Since they're right at your doorstep, it only takes one turn now.

The number of whales in your local area that you can see range into the thousands, not including their young. The briar patch as a whole is vast, and there could be potentially millions or more, depending on the ecosystem. You've only just scratched the surface there.
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

Hmm...

Will need to make some alterations to the build plan in order to save time.

EDIT: Updated the headplan to take into account the time saving effects of the corkscrew module and its need for a dry-dock:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Moved the Warehousing down and put a second round of Whalers in since its both something that people will now want and its relatively cheap. In the next round we will go as low as 1000RU in the reserves but after that we will see a steady increase especially when the Recycling center kicks in.

EDIT2: Forgot to ask, when will the population increase kick in?

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Siber
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Siber »

Awesome outcomes, glad we went with those strange corkscrews! That should in time make chasing us into the briarpatch a very bad idea for enemies. With those kinds of bonuses a second round of whaling is indeed pretty appealing. Not sure I'd advocate another hit of spirals though, I suspect the diminished returns on that will make the opportunity cost on getting other bonuses fairly painful, though it's hard to say that for sure without fore-knowledge of what the options are of course.
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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Razor One »

Population increase kicks in next turn, but since they're only infants they're not going to add to your productive population for another 18 years. 16 if a majority of the thread argues for a decrease in working age, though that may have consequences.

I've got to do a lot more cleaning up of various bits and pieces, odds and ends. I've transferred the character sheets over to an excel document. Should make keeping things up to date easier, though I've yet to apply all your stat gains. I've also got to go over your commodities you brought over. The bees are an issue if I recall, and my internal time limit was a year for their stasis. The various saplings should be able to manage for a while longer. Their growth is stunted until you build plantation structures for them, something I'll include in next turns stewardship actions.
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Sweforce
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Sweforce »

Razor One wrote:Population increase kicks in next turn, but since they're only infants they're not going to add to your productive population for another 18 years. 16 if a majority of the thread argues for a decrease in working age, though that may have consequences.
Maybe they can let themselves be "persuaded" to take some disgruntled civilian cast workers of their forthcoming loroi allies hands as a sign of friendship. :mrgreen:

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dragoongfa
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

@Razor

The bees should have been included in the diversification process. In fact the potato plant requires pollination so some bees should have been out from day 1.

EDIT: In fact: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 296#p21296
Corn, wheat and rice will require you to UNLEASH THE BEES, though your potatoes won't need them.
Corn and Wheat don't require pollination but Rice does and it is among our staples so the bees should be in picture with the diversification process.

EDIT2: Regarding the saplings, they are all genetic samples that require a biolab to produce them so we shouldn't have a problem with their being in the fridge:

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 798#p20798

Absalom
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Absalom »

Razor One wrote:Population increase kicks in next turn, but since they're only infants they're not going to add to your productive population for another 18 years. 16 if a majority of the thread argues for a decrease in working age, though that may have consequences.
No, they should be contributing a little around the time of their teens, even if just as a consequence of handling chores & educational projects (if not for the creche, and the daycare that it'll presumably develop into, they should be reducing productivity for the earier bits of their lives). Given that the population were colonists, they should be expecting the same too, since it basically falls under the same "rules of pragmatism" as kids growing up on a farm; even in Western societies this "no working till age of majority" stuff only applies to developed living situations.
Sweforce wrote:Maybe they can let themselves be "persuaded" to take some disgruntled civilian cast workers of their forthcoming loroi allies hands as a sign of friendship. :mrgreen:
If I were the Loroi, I wouldn't offer even rebellious civilian caste to someone that I'd known for less than several years, though that is faster than waiting on human maturation.

If we want population increases in the "near" future, then we're looking at either Urkuk (very fast life cycles) or immigration.
dragoongfa wrote:@Razor

The bees should have been included in the diversification process. In fact the potato plant requires pollination so some bees should have been out from day 1.
Potato flowers don't produce nectar, so the bees would quickly die. Nothing in the easily available set of plants will make nectar available. I talked about this with Razor before the pause.

In short, you guys flunked your homework.

Also, potatoes only need pollination when producing new varieties (which I assume is the back-story for them, since none of the convenient cargo calls for them), potato propogation is primarily via root cuttings, much like roses & strawberries. I thought this was common knowledge?
dragoongfa wrote:
Corn, wheat and rice will require you to UNLEASH THE BEES, though your potatoes won't need them.
Corn and Wheat don't require pollination but Rice does and it is among our staples so the bees should be in picture with the diversification process.
Rice is wind fertilized, just like corn and wheat (and yes, I checked). All of the grasses (which all three are members of) are wind fertilized. Bees might take advantage of their pollen on occasion, but the plant gains nothing from it.



Edited in:
My original post on nectar: link. Don't say that I didn't warn you, because I did. Your belief that Staples + Bees was enough for Honey was completely off-base and unresearched, which is why I mentioned Nectar.

And no, the wheat, rice, and corn don't produce nectar either.
dragoongfa wrote:EDIT2: Regarding the saplings, they are all genetic samples that require a biolab to produce them so we shouldn't have a problem with their being in the fridge:

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 798#p20798
And so is the Algae. Every saving grace that the Bees could have counted on is non-existent. You'd basically have to find some way to extract the sugar from something, at which point you're probably looking at Biolab or similar regardless. You guys should have swapped Algae and Bees for each other.

...

joestej thought trees would be ready to cut down in a year? Man, I hope you guys weren't counting on that. That's a Hemp growth rate, not a tree growth rate.

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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Razor One »

Yeah, your current set of stuff doesn't include plants that are rich in nectar for the bees to live off. You need flowering plants for that, so oranges, berries and the like. Your insect population is benefitting from the diversification, but not the bees.

That being said, there is a solution. You can render some of your food production into maltose which can then be broken down into glucose, which the bees can then digest and convert into poor quality honey. It'll help them survive and give you a fairly basic sweetener.

I'm thinking 50 Food -> 5 Honey (Poor) production for now until you can net yourself some flowering plants. It'll keep your bees alive and you can probably consume the honey for a small morale boost or sell it as a basic sweetener to the Loroi later on.
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dragoongfa
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

And there I was thinking that Razor would not got full realism...

In any case our increase food production is about to kick in so we can sacrifice 50 or 100 food units for the bees until we find a replacement.

EDIT: Besides, what's a game without some player error and the small punishment to fix it ? :P

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Razor One
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Razor One »

I try to use realism where it's most interesting, and let it slide where it's least interesting. Case in point, letting the L'Amour travel through the Briar Patch without an aerodynamic mod so you don't burn your hull going full speed ahead. :P

Letting your bees live because they can live off sugar instead of letting them die is another. The malus to food production is small enough to let slide and large enough to be slightly punishing, and I figured I'd just give it to you straight up instead of having a vote on whether or not to save the bees, since I'm fairly sure you'll want to preserve your unique commodities.

That being said, notice how there's a quality indicator there. The poor quality makes the honey a cheap and nasty sweetener, you may as well be using the sugar you feed the bees there. Get some flowering plants though, and the quality will improve. Get a nice variety going, or score a high roll on certain plants, and you can improve the quality, which has knock on benefits. High quality honey can supplement some of your medicinals and provides other trade goods such as beeswax.

Trade is a big thing if you can crack into the right markets. :)

Character Sheets, by the way.

Also, regarding your growth:

Counting from turn two, the number of pregnancies amongst your colonists were:

Turn 2: 14
Turn 3: 9
Turn 4: 7
Turn 5: 1
Turn 6: 19
Turn 7: 1
Turn 8: 19
Turn 9: 15
Turn 10: 19
Turn 11: 20
Turn 12: 4

Hmm. It seems people were getting down and busy during the Christmas - Fenrir season. Makes sense to me! **waggles eyebrows suggestively**.

I'm not counting turn one because **waves hands** reasons.

Your total growth was 128, subtracting from your 217 women, that leaves 89 women that either didn't do the deed or had rotten luck. There's a two year cooldown on pregnancies, so your growth will slow. I think I've excluded the crew members, though if I haven't then uh... twins. Yeah. Your crew won't be indisposed without special dispensation from you, though relationships may form between them or the colonists if you leave them long enough.

Trying to work things a bit, I'm going to pretend that children will eat at half rations until they hit adulthood, so they are a net drain on your food production, but thems the breaks if you want to grow things up the old fashioned way. There are ways around your growth problem, but do consider the potential pitfalls of integrating aliens into your culture while you are small and vulnerable.
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dragoongfa
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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by dragoongfa »

Yeah, putting aliens in while the colony is young is a recipe for disaster. The Loroi children who owe us their lives are one thing but any other group would be problematic. A Loroi envoy and a few honor guards are the best we can accommodate for now. Anymore than this before our colony has grown into a power to reckon with just invites trouble.

Hell, I would be weary even if we got other humans to join us; who knows how they would have turned out if they hadn't got a cure for the jump sickness.

In any case for the time being our goal is to put down the final roots of our colony and go take a look by the corner and drop off the kids to their own.

So...

Work faster Razor :P

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Re: Outcast Quest [Updated 3/8/16 - Tactical Turn Results]

Post by Absalom »

Razor One wrote:Letting your bees live because they can live off sugar instead of letting them die is another. The malus to food production is small enough to let slide and large enough to be slightly punishing, and I figured I'd just give it to you straight up instead of having a vote on whether or not to save the bees, since I'm fairly sure you'll want to preserve your unique commodities.

That being said, notice how there's a quality indicator there. The poor quality makes the honey a cheap and nasty sweetener, you may as well be using the sugar you feed the bees there. Get some flowering plants though, and the quality will improve. Get a nice variety going, or score a high roll on certain plants, and you can improve the quality, which has knock on benefits. High quality honey can supplement some of your medicinals and provides other trade goods such as beeswax.

Trade is a big thing if you can crack into the right markets. :)
It is worth bearing in mind that some nectars and pollens are poisonous to bees and/or produce poisonous honey: Rhododendron has this with both nectar and honey, for both bees and humans, for example. Thus, whether it be from the data drives, or some alien biota that you think can fill the role, always check for hidden dangers before-hand.

On the other hand, also bear in mind that some categories of quasi- or semi- honeys may be safe when you wouldn't expect it: Pine Honey is a honeydew-honey produced from the excretions of scale insects feeding on pine trees, for example, but both pine sap and pine resin are mostly just useful for industry or chewing gum. Also, since it basically just needs to be a liquidish edible with sugar content, there may indeed be some alien plants (or even animals!) that could provide base material.

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