Page 107 Discussion

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by fredgiblet »

projekcja wrote:The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.
BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I can imagine an anthropologist would be super excited to find a previously undiscovered society of humans living in some remote corner of the world, even when there are already many known human cultures to study. Beryl is learning things that no Loroi has ever known before, so I could see the appeal.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by dragoongfa »

fredgiblet wrote:
projekcja wrote:The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.
BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.
If the humans have any brain cells left they will all switch to duo decimal and let the computers handle out the rest. From an arithmetics point of view both the octal and the decimal are inferior to the duodecimal.

But then again, the US will still be using Imperial so that's certainly an obstacle.

User avatar
alpha
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:30 am
Location: A Cold Place.

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by alpha »

dragoongfa wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
projekcja wrote:The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.
BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.
If the humans have any brain cells left they will all switch to duo decimal and let the computers handle out the rest. From an arithmetics point of view both the octal and the decimal are inferior to the duodecimal.

But then again, the US will still be using Imperial so that's certainly an obstacle.
The US will switch... once a socialist independent political candidate wins two presidential elections by a landslide, and people stop being irrational and/or stupid.
I think I'm supposed to have a sig here.
Other Forums:
SpoilerShow
Alpha: Schlock Mercenary/Nightstar Zoo
And some others that I'll add... eventually.

User avatar
peragrin
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:51 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by peragrin »

The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first. So do colleges. National and state standards have to be listed in both. Basically it is old people who don't want to switch. You can't force those people, so you teach young people metric over and over again, make sure all labels have both and by the time you suggest switching publicly in another 20 years there won't be enough old people that don't know mettric for it to matter.

if you need proof go look at your gallon of milk, or any label. everything has dual labels so they can be sold everywhere. Businesses are cheap if they think they can save money by switching to metric by printing less on labels they will bur our politicians to do just that.

User avatar
Siber
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Siber »

For weights you might be on to something, but for distances and temp? I don't see that process underway at all.
Atomic Space Race, a hard sci-fi orbital mechanics puzzle game.
Homeworld Fulcrum, a Homeworld Remastered Mod

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Absalom »

fredgiblet wrote:
projekcja wrote:The idea that the Loroi who already met dozens of civilizations, are eager to memorize another set of units is strange but acceptable as a quirk of their behavior, but clearly the efficient businesslike thing to do is to show humanity the units used by all the other races in the alliance for inter-species trade.
BERYL has never met another civilization, as long as she's been alive there has only been the Loroi Union and the Umiak. So for her this is a first, and since she's a xenophile AND an information sponge by trade it's a pretty exciting situation. Doubtless the humans are already laying plans to switch their system to the Trade one, though the US probably won't switch for another hundred years after all they probably just adopted Metric the month before first contact.
Over a hundred years from now? The US might be using a purely-decimal derivative of Imperial instead of one of the traditional Imperial systems. After all, the Metric system was invented by the French. I'd personally suggest something based on the foot, since, you know, it's in the realm of the length of the average human foot.
peragrin wrote:The USA has switched at least unofficially.
Actually, I believe that the switch was official (back in the 50s, 60s, something like that). The unofficial switch was the one that didn't happen.
Siber wrote:For weights you might be on to something, but for distances and temp? I don't see that process underway at all.
Supposedly the British still use miles. Real-world units and engineering-units don't intrinsically need to be the same thing, particularly since Real-world units are primarily colloquial in use, not precise. The Fahrenheit scale is similar: Celsius has a more sensible footing from a technical perspective (Kelvin honestly beats it, but still), but the Fahrenheit scale matches better to human comfort, thus more sensible for the 7-day forecast.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by fredgiblet »

peragrin wrote:The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.
When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Absalom »

fredgiblet wrote:
peragrin wrote:The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.
When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.
Text book makers set the majority of the standard, and then just tweak their books to suit the individual PTA (or school board, or...). Either it got left out of your books, or your teacher didn't feel it to be important and thus skipped it.

I was taught a little metric, and I'm about the same age as you.

User avatar
alpha
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:30 am
Location: A Cold Place.

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by alpha »

fredgiblet wrote:
peragrin wrote:The USA has switched at least unofficially. schools teach metric first.
When did that happen? I'm 29 and I don't remember any metric at all.
I'm a bit younger and I remember 1st, 2nd, and 3rd grade being filled with the metric system. Then, I changed schools.

In high school, metric units were used in science for "physics" and for chemistry, and later, for actual physics. They were used mostly because of the easier calculations.

For example, Charles' Law and Guy-Lussac's Law are a lot harder to use when use
SpoilerShow
Imperial
American units. We're unique! In our backwardness...
I think I'm supposed to have a sig here.
Other Forums:
SpoilerShow
Alpha: Schlock Mercenary/Nightstar Zoo
And some others that I'll add... eventually.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Arioch »

When I was a kid in the 70's we were taught the metric system in school and were told that the US was going to convert. But that didn't happen, because people want to continue driving miles and filling with gallons of gasoline, and thinking of the height and weight of people in terms of feet, inches and pounds... because that's what they're used to, and there's nothing wrong with that. The advantages offered by the metric system are irrelevant to 95% of the people. The ability to more easily convert units has no appeal whatsoever to an ordinary person who is trying to buy milk. Almost all labeling and packaging gives measurements in both systems, so if you want to use metric... knock yourself out.

If you're in the field of science or engineering and you can actually benefit from SI units, chances are you're already using them. Only a few hardware engineering and fabrication disciplines insist on still using Imperial units. That's not a problem as long as everyone is clear on their conversions -- the infamous Mars Orbiter screw up had less to do with the unit systems and more to do with NASA's incompetent bureaucracy.

I make a point of using SI units the comic, but I still think in miles and gallons and pounds rather than in kilometers and liters and kilograms in everyday life.

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Krulle »

Absalom wrote:
peragrin wrote:The USA has switched at least unofficially.
Actually, I believe that the switch was official (back in the 50s, 60s, something like that). The unofficial switch was the one that didn't happen.
Wikipedia, process of introducing the SI-units to the US wrote:Metrication (or metrification) is the process of introducing the International System of Units (or SI), commonly known as the metric system, to replace the traditional or customary units of measurement of a country or region. Although all U.S. customary units have been redefined in terms of SI units, the United States does not commonly mandate the use of SI. This, according to the CIA Factbook, makes the United States one of only three countries as of 2015, with Myanmar (Burma) and Liberia, that have not adopted the metric system as their official system of weights and measures.
[emphasis added by me]

I also found a website giving a brief explanation of the US customary units. As I don't know them and don't use them, I found it an interesting read.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Sweforce »

Imagine Alex holding this rant for Beryl regarding measurements: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7x-RGfd0Yk :mrgreen:

JQBogus
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by JQBogus »

When did the UK fully adopt the metric system? AFAIK, they started metrification in 1965, but still haven't really completed it, since one still buys beer in the pub by the pint.

The UK didn't adopt a rational (decimal) currency until 1971. The US has had one since 1792.

So... we'll let you be behind us by 199 years in adopting decimal currency, you can let us be behind you by 199 years in adopting the metric system. We'll get around to it in 2164. Still 4 years to go in Outsider.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Absalom wrote:Supposedly the British still use miles. Real-world units and engineering-units don't intrinsically need to be the same thing, particularly since Real-world units are primarily colloquial in use, not precise. The Fahrenheit scale is similar: Celsius has a more sensible footing from a technical perspective (Kelvin honestly beats it, but still), but the Fahrenheit scale matches better to human comfort, thus more sensible for the 7-day forecast.
"Turn left in 0.5 miles, then in 200 yards at the roundabout take the third exit."
- An example of a British sat-nav talking.

Petrol pumps definitely count in litres. Mostly we use Celsius (certainly TV weather reports do)... except when it's hot, and Fahrenheit allows people to give a ridiculously high number to make their point.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by fredgiblet »

Why do you use stone for weight?

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

How do we know the Loroi don't have their own local measurements as well? Maybe Deinar, Taben, and Perrein all have their own local units of measurement?

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:How do we know the Loroi don't have their own local measurements as well? Maybe Deinar, Taben, and Perrein all have their own local units of measurement?
They do, and some of them are plenty archaic. Beryl would not find the Imperial system to be unusual.

Suederwind
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Suederwind »

Switching to metric doesn't mean that those older units just go out of use and vanish.
People here in Germany still buy a Pfund (pound) of bread/sugar/etc... , farmers still sell a Zentner (roughly a hundreadweight) of potatos if you want that much and a lot of people still convert prices in Mark to get a better feeling if its a fair deal (me included). You don't lern them in school, you lern and use them in everyday use.

Thats why I can see Alex thinking about how many miles he is away from home or guessing Beryls height in feet, etc...
Forum RP: Cydonia Rising
[RP]Cydonia Rising [IC]

Krulle
Posts: 1413
Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 9:14 am

Re: Page 107 Discussion

Post by Krulle »

Yes, but the German pound has changed its meaning to mean half a kilogram [1], and the "Zentner" is even worse, as the Germans mostly understand 100 pound (100x500g = 50kg), whereas in Switzerland and Austria the "Zentner" is the (metric)"Zentner" (100x1kg = 100kg), so to differentiate, the Germans use the "Doppelzentner" for 100kg [2].
[Wikipedia: [1], [2]]

People will still use old units, as they are used to it. The meaning might change slightly to adapt to round numbers in the new system....

BTW: I stopped converting from EUR to DM already some 5 months in. Beforehand I did a lot of converting from DM to EUR, or from HFL (Dutch guilder) to EUR, to be able to compare prices (on purpose to EUR, I could have converted directly DM<->Hfl). I am so happy with our common currency, although i am unhappy about certain elements of the implementation.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

Post Reply