RedDwarfIV wrote:
I was under the impression that the Fleet was so small because of budgetary reasons. The TCA, as far as I know, if not yet on an actual war footing. The only thing they've done to prepare for war is to build the Victory class battlecruisers and send the Scout Corps out looking for the combatants.
Sure, Humanity's industry is tiny compared to the Loroi's, and way less advanced, but I think you're selling it somewhat short.
Also, they have eight cruisers and one battlecruiser, not six cruisers.
My apologies, I was only counting the Heavy and Battle cruisers, I left out our three Light cruisers. I hardly see how it matters though. Humanity's biggest technological achievement thus far is converting an existing heavy cruiser into battle cruiser armed with a single particle cannon. A Loroi FRIGATE has more firepower than that. Our warships don't even have screens yet. War footing or not, you cannot take an assembly line designed for building biplanes and expect it to start cranking out jet fighters without giving it a total overhaul.
fredgiblet wrote:As has been pointed out that's in peacetime with literally no threats known. That being said that's not even what I was talking about. I'm talking about logistics. The Loroi can establish a base in our area and we can provide a significant amount of supplies and raw materials that would then not need to be trucked across 200 light years. We can also provide labor, reducing the amount of Loroi needed to run the base.
Yes, we aren't going to be able to provide them with a hundred heavy cruisers tomorrow, but we CAN give them a hundred tons of food a day that they then don't need to provide themselves. And that's just day 1. In the near future we'd be able to provide a number of things that would ease logistical strains, gradually diversifying as our industrial base s upgraded to their tech level. Logistics aren't sexy, but they ARE the most important part of any war.
Why would they WANT a base in our area? If they wanted to try and push the Umiak's flank by edging into the Great Wasteland, they could have done it by now. Besides, the Umiak's specialty is numbers, so opening a new front to the war would be great for the bugs. It would be less fun for the Loroi, who would suddenly have to defend an area just as big (if not bigger) than the Steppes with no preexisting fortifications and a VERY long commute for reinforcements.
Our use as logistics will be quite limited for the first few years. Most Human food is not digestible for the Loroi (and vice-versa, as Alex has found out). Even if we did find a solution for that, the fleets the Loroi would dispatch would need repairs, munitions, and parts we would not be capable of manufacturing. The journey from Naam to Saren is supposed to take Alex 20 days, traveling on a 32G acceleration Frigate. The journey from the Coreward edge of Loroi space to Human territory is at least twice as far as that, and would have to be traveled by multiple 20G acceleration Freighters. That's a two-month commute, one way. EVENTUALLY we would be able to take over, but for at least the first year the Loroi would be effectively on their own while we worked out how to build the tools we'd need, to build the tools we'd need, to finally be able to fix the Loroi's ships.
Considering the Umiak's fondness for hit-and-run raids, the convoys would be very tempting targets, extending the new front even FARTHER. If they can cut us off like they did Seren, we'd really be in hot water. So how many ships can the Loroi afford to waste on us again?
Krulle wrote:fredgiblet wrote:joestej wrote:As for knowledge, what exactly are we bringing to the table here?
Maps. We have our own region scouted and we probably have the Orgus's nav computer data as well, which gives a backdoor into Umiak territory.
A backdoor that is swamped by an invasion army.
What Krulle said. Our maps will be useful...but nothing game-changing.
The Historians are allies, but they are NOT friends. They likely wouldn't give the Loroi their best stuff unless it was absolutely required, and even then they need researchers and engineers to reverse-engineer it since the Loroi haven't been capable of doing that so far.
This is certainly true, but I fail to see how adding Humanity into the mix would change that in any way. It took us years to reverse-engineer Orgus tech into something we could put on a ship. Historian stuff is so far beyond that they aren't even comparable.
Speaking of the Historians, recall that even with all their advanced technology when the Umiak came after them they needed the Loroi's help to bail them out...and the Loroi still lost. The Umiak bulldozed right through Historian territory and completely cut off Seren. If the Historians weren't enough to support the Loroi against a dedicated Umiak invasion, what chance do you think we'll have?
When exactly is that going to happen? We have no evidence yet that the Umiak have ANY humans available to them and even if they get them there's no reason to be sure that they will make that connection. They might just kill them all assuming they're odd Loroi. Even if they don't there's no guarantee that they will find us any time soon. The only way they're likely to find us is if one of the other ships brings them in, and if that happens it's unlikely that they'll find out about the lotai anytime soon.
The Umiak already know about the Bellarmine, AKA "The [Object In Question]." Do you really think Kikitik isn't going to report the mystery wreckage and how interested the Loroi were in it? Their intel may not be great, but the sudden appearance of a new race in the Union is something no one is going to be able to hide. That plus the wreckage, and they'll make the connection. The idea that they'll dismiss us as 'odd Loroi' is unlikely, considering A) we've got way too many men, B) our technology and ships are radically different, and C) we wouldn't act like a Loroi would. Remember that if the Orgus could stumble into us, the Umiak certainly could too. And they'll actually be looking.
Nnnnnnnnno? The Umiak set the trap days before we arrived. This is an ability THEY have, not one that we brought to the table.
Absalom wrote:I don't know why people occasionally say this, but it's wrong. The Umiak found some other way to avoid telepathy, the Bellarmine showed up several raider groups afterwards. Additionally, Tempo did not mention any telepathic hindrance from being in Jardin's presence; and the fact that she, Fireblade, and Berryl all lack profound amounts of hostility to him reinforces it's absence.
Humans are not making the Umiak invisible to telepathy, the Umiak are making the Umiak invisible to telepathy.
I concede the point for now, as perhaps I did get my wires crossed on this one. I will state for the record though that it seems VERY odd that the Umiak would suddenly come up with a way to block farsense JUST when Humans are finally edging into Umiak/Loroi space. The timing could be coincidence, but I doubt it. Whatever new technology the Umiak (claim to) have, I would wager it's connected to us somehow.
Still, let's go with the facts we have. Assuming the Umiak already have a way to block telepathy then their interest in us will be negligible. They likely wouldn't even bother taking the trip to wipe us out. Of course, it won't matter because the entire Loroi defense is predicated on their ability to see Umiak fleets coming. Without that the Union won't last another decade, just as Kikitik said. By the time we finish ramping up to help, the Loroi will have already fallen. From there the Umiak bulldoze the Nissek, then turn around to finish us off and overwhelm the Historians with numbers.
Both ways Human inclusion in the war is not going to suddenly turn all this around. Either we're a liability they need to waste valuable ships protecting, or we're to late to the party to make any difference.