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Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED 
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
As a curiosity I'd like to know who pushed for the expanded universe to get disregarded. Some of the disney marketing thinkers, JJ Abrams, or something Lucas did that pissed others off during closed door meetings.


Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:06 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
hi hi

It is a remarkably popular theme, in the USA at least, to have a society that would be all kinds of awesome and superior to their opponents, if only their incompetent leaders would stop messing things up. Often the brilliant rogue protagonists real battle is with their leaders rather than their opponents, who they outclass repeatedly. Being amazing pilots, warriors, or strategists themselves.

I think making Luke's character a good one will play a critical part in the next movie. I could imagine a few reasons why fighting back might have only made the situation worse for Luke, but it is anyone's guess if the writers will come up with something that passes muster.

Nothing about the Republic and the First Order made any sense to me when I watched the movie. The only hypothesis that so far made any sense to me was that after the Empire fell, the Republic eventually called a truce with the Imperial remnants, which became the First Order, and the two powers had up until that point maintained the illusion of peace, while each tried to undermine the other from behind the scenes. But with as much information as they gave in the movie, it is anyone's guess what is really going on.

It is really not uncommon for movies and TV shows to ignore what happens in spinoff novels. Writers can't be bothered to read massive volumes, and in some cases, producers don't want to deal with any future claims by the authors, no matter how shaky their grounds might be.


Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:29 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
elorran wrote:
As a curiosity I'd like to know who pushed for the expanded universe to get disregarded. Some of the disney marketing thinkers, JJ Abrams, or something Lucas did that pissed others off during closed door meetings.


It was a pretty obvious move. The EU is VERY densely populated, so threading new stories in between would have been difficult. The other option would be to just turn existing EU content into movies, but that severely restricts their options. Yet ANOTHER option would be to move the setting to the end of the established EU, but that leaves them with a fuckton of lore that MOST people haven't touched.

Dropping the EU was the best choice.


Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:05 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
icekatze wrote:
Nothing about the Republic and the First Order made any sense to me when I watched the movie. The only hypothesis that so far made any sense to me was that after the Empire fell, the Republic eventually called a truce with the Imperial remnants, which became the First Order, and the two powers had up until that point maintained the illusion of peace, while each tried to undermine the other from behind the scenes. But with as much information as they gave in the movie, it is anyone's guess what is really going on.


That is what I've heard, but it was second-hand at best.

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It is really not uncommon for movies and TV shows to ignore what happens in spinoff novels. Writers can't be bothered to read massive volumes, and in some cases, producers don't want to deal with any future claims by the authors, no matter how shaky their grounds might be.


And in the case of Star Wars you're talking probably a hundred books, dozens of comics and dozens of games.


Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:07 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
the EU was dropped due to size. You are talking about 25,000 years before yavin to 200 years after yavin.

Every year after the battle of yavin was filled with stories or backgrounds for stories. They had to wipe it all clear.

in the next few years in between major star wars movies will be anthology movies. Rogue one(bonthan's stealing the death star plans) Han Solo, and Bobba Fett origin stories. Those histories were done several times in the EU.


Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:59 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Lucas submitted his ideas for the new trilogy (presumably based on the EU), and they were rejected, no doubt because they were crap. Abrams and Kasdan came up with story they wanted to tell for the new trilogy, which would obviously contradict the EU, so it was kind of a no-brainer that EU couldn't be treated as canon if they wanted to take the franchise in a new direction. The writing in Ep.VII may be weak, but it's worlds better than the dross that makes up the vast majority of the EU.

peragrin wrote:
Rogue one(bonthan's stealing the death star plans)

People keep saying Rogue One is about the Bothans. The Bothan Spies were mentioned in Return of the Jedi as having provided the intel about the Emperor visiting the second Death Star, but I don't see that this means they had anything to do with the theft of the original Death Star plans prior to A New Hope. Maybe there's some EU nonsense that links the two, but folks needs to get their heads around the fact that EU isn't canon for the new movies.

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Tue Jan 05, 2016 11:19 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
With some time gone by since I saw the new film, I've had a little more time to digest it, and I think the biggest thing for me is this: I can live with a lot of the plot recycling involving the characters - to me (and "your mileage may vary") that can be chalked up to some obscure way The Force works it's will or whatever. But it really would not have taken THAT MUCH of a pseudo-creative step to do away with the giant planet killing orb trope and have something more prosaic - maybe a larger or better equipped fleet than the Republic was aware of appearing over Hosnian Prime (or whatever planet) and glassing the surface. Something, anything, other than ANOTHER planet killing orb with one weakness and a last second destruction as the next shot is about to fire. That might be an overused plot device in and of itself in sci-fi/fantasy, but it's worlds better than the recycled thing we got.

I still overall liked the movie, but certain things are sitting less well with me as time passes.

CJSF


Tue Jan 05, 2016 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
cacambo43 wrote:
With some time gone by since I saw the new film, I've had a little more time to digest it, and I think the biggest thing for me is this: I can live with a lot of the plot recycling involving the characters - to me (and "your mileage may vary") that can be chalked up to some obscure way The Force works it's will or whatever. But it really would not have taken THAT MUCH of a pseudo-creative step to do away with the giant planet killing orb trope and have something more prosaic - maybe a larger or better equipped fleet than the Republic was aware of appearing over Hosnian Prime (or whatever planet) and glassing the surface. Something, anything, other than ANOTHER planet killing orb with one weakness and a last second destruction as the next shot is about to fire. That might be an overused plot device in and of itself in sci-fi/fantasy, but it's worlds better than the recycled thing we got.

I still overall liked the movie, but certain things are sitting less well with me as time passes.

CJSF

Here is my problem. If you have a giant fleet of ships that is attacking the planet, the only defense is another giant fleet of ships. There is no last minute save the day from a small group of rebels, or resistance fighters.

Picture taking out a full carrier battle group, vs taking over a city. Even with troops defending it a city is a lot easier to infiltrate and attack from multiple angles. where as the only way to go up against a carrier battle group is with a bunch of subs, and a macross missile barrage. (At least one hundred you need 7-10 per ship).

So having one big target makes it easy enough for the resistance to accomplish. granted if the first order wasn't stupid like the empire they should have built 3 massive fleets of ships, instead of one doomsday weapon.

Edit: the reason for 7-10 per ship is to counter the CIWS and rolling anti missile missiles, And that is if you can get such missiles within 100 miles of the ships to start with.


Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:16 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
I am saying there should have been NO "last minute save." They would have destroyed the surface and moved on. Heck, you could still give them super weapons, just not one the size of a planet that sends superluminal energy beams light years away. Sure, it would have necessitated a different type of story line, but that might be a GOOD thing, right?

CJSF


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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
I think the superweapon was largely unnecessary to the plot; the map to Skywalker was what was mostly driving things anyway. Rey being captured was sufficient to compel the heroes to assault the enemy base, and you could have had an ESB style ending where the victory is that the heroes escape to fight another day. You could remove the Starkiller entirely from the movie and have it play out almost exactly the same way.

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Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:42 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Agreed. Personally I know there's a LOT of love for the movie right now, but I honestly expect it'll end up being another Avatar, beloved in theaters, but rapidly fading away in the collective conscious.


Wed Jan 06, 2016 1:39 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
fredgiblet wrote:
Agreed. Personally I know there's a LOT of love for the movie right now, but I honestly expect it'll end up being another Avatar, beloved in theaters, but rapidly fading away in the collective conscious.


I agree, too. I was just putting forth a scenario if you really really felt it necessary to piff the Senate.

CJSF


Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:27 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
hi hi

After letting it sit for a while, I think I can safely rate Star Wars VII at a solid "The Dark Knight Rises," out of 10. Didn't feel like I wasted my time or money, but I don't have any great urge to see it again. Maybe it was an excess of subplots muddling things up, maybe it was the tone of the movie just didn't mesh as well as it could, or the awkward moments of exposition about the distant past, but while still enjoyable, it just didn't capture quite the same spark as some of its predecessors.

Percent of movie spent per engagement level:
Oh yes, I am totally on board with this: 22%
Yeah, I gotta say that was pretty cool: 52%
I've certainly seen worse than this: 19%
Okay, getting a little weird right there: 5%
What the heck am I watching now?: 2%


Wed Jan 06, 2016 4:15 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
dragoongfa wrote:
I was talking about Rey and her ability to do fucking everything.

spoilered as a last warning:

Spoiler: show
I mean come on, she is so Mary Sue that it actually hurts.

She is an innocent, naive and good looking young woman who is thrown into the midst of war
She is great combatant
She is a mechanic that can fix a ship
She is a pilot that flies said ship that she just fixed
She is force sensitive that is capable of using mind tricks without ANY force training
She is a capable light saber user the first time she picks one up, actually managing to beat a trained light saber opponent the first time she fights with a light saber*

*Who was admittedly wounded but Kylo Ren was trained in the force from child hood by Skywalker himself and both Sith and Jedi have demonstrated repeatedly how dangerous opponents they are until their last breath. Someone who hasn't touched a light saber before should NEVER hope to win against a fully fledged Sith with his arms and legs still attached.


That the force for you. Space wizard and thing like that. When you cant explaine something "the force" When thing go so wrong you dont know how you can make it out alive "the force"

The force is one easy and annoying device (just like your Mom!) They drop it juste to fix broken plot. That annoy me highly. But if i ignore that the movie is really good.


Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:11 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
The main thing that annoys me is the thing that annoys me about most Star Wars stuff--I just don't find the Jedi to be even close to the coolest part of the setting.

Give me my snubfighter jocks, my ridiculously impractical capital ship battles. The X-Wing Series by Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston is my favorite EU series, and it seldom even mentions actual Force users.

In this movie, we had a handful of X-Wings and basic TIEs. No B-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, no Interceptors or Bombers, ALL of which were in the original trilogy. No Star Destroyers or Mon Cal cruisers. We barely even saw space!

I had fun with the movie, but I actually prefer the state of the EU, where I could ignore the stuff I didn't like and cling to the things I did as "real" canon--just because the galaxy felt so huge.

Hopefully Fantasy Flight keeps their Edge of the Empire game in "Legends" territory.

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Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Arioch wrote:
I think the superweapon was largely unnecessary to the plot; the map to Skywalker was what was mostly driving things anyway. Rey being captured was sufficient to compel the heroes to assault the enemy base, and you could have had an ESB style ending where the victory is that the heroes escape to fight another day. You could remove the Starkiller entirely from the movie and have it play out almost exactly the same way.


I never liked the Death Star in the first place; not only for the lack of sense of scale or the logistics to build and maintain such monstruosity.... but because blowing up habitable planets is not only evil, but downright stupid even in a Galaxy with many of them. You cannot create more to replace those.
That´s the main reason in real life we stopped using nukes in military conflicts after WW2.


Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:29 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Count Casimir wrote:
The main thing that annoys me is the thing that annoys me about most Star Wars stuff--I just don't find the Jedi to be even close to the coolest part of the setting.

Give me my snubfighter jocks, my ridiculously impractical capital ship battles. The X-Wing Series by Michael Stackpole and Aaron Allston is my favorite EU series, and it seldom even mentions actual Force users.

In this movie, we had a handful of X-Wings and basic TIEs. No B-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, no Interceptors or Bombers, ALL of which were in the original trilogy. No Star Destroyers or Mon Cal cruisers. We barely even saw space!
It's in line with episode 4, but yeah, Big Destructive Objects can be cool, but even Episode 1 gave us bigger war scenes than these small skirmishes. This would be a neat level (or even campaign) for a modern X-Wing vs TIE Fighter / Star Wars: Jedi Knight game-crossover, but Starkiller Base is frankly akin to some really big lawn ornament. The first Deathstar had more presence than Starkiller base.


raistlin34 wrote:
Arioch wrote:
I think the superweapon was largely unnecessary to the plot; the map to Skywalker was what was mostly driving things anyway. Rey being captured was sufficient to compel the heroes to assault the enemy base, and you could have had an ESB style ending where the victory is that the heroes escape to fight another day. You could remove the Starkiller entirely from the movie and have it play out almost exactly the same way.


I never liked the Death Star in the first place; not only for the lack of sense of scale or the logistics to build and maintain such monstruosity.... but because blowing up habitable planets is not only evil, but downright stupid even in a Galaxy with many of them. You cannot create more to replace those.
That´s the main reason in real life we stopped using nukes in military conflicts after WW2.
Actually, if they're willing to wait while the planet cools down, in the Star Wars universe (EU or Canon) they probably can build them. It's a flagrant waste of resources, but I suspect that the planet-killer beam was always intended as a terror weapon rather than a real weapon: the thing was presumably built well-armored, and every bit as armed as it's surface area would suggest: it probably could have taken out any fleet that didn't run away fast enough without any support ships.


Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:06 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Absalom said everything I was going to say.

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Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:30 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Count Casimir wrote:
In this movie, we had a handful of X-Wings and basic TIEs. No B-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, no Interceptors or Bombers, ALL of which were in the original trilogy. No Star Destroyers or Mon Cal cruisers. We barely even saw space!


Because it's largely a rehash of 4. Also because, unknown to the viewer since Abrams didn't see fit to explain it in the movie, the Resistance isn't actually the New Republic, they're literally a new rebellion against the Imperial Remnant in the form of the First Order. That handful of X-Wings is all they have.

When you're grabbing ships to start a rebellion you want commonality if possible, it significantly eases logistics. Also Y-wings were obsolete in 4, by now they're probably useless.


Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:29 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
fredgiblet wrote:
Count Casimir wrote:
In this movie, we had a handful of X-Wings and basic TIEs. No B-Wings, A-Wings, Y-Wings, no Interceptors or Bombers, ALL of which were in the original trilogy. No Star Destroyers or Mon Cal cruisers. We barely even saw space!


Because it's largely a rehash of 4. Also because, unknown to the viewer since Abrams didn't see fit to explain it in the movie, the Resistance isn't actually the New Republic, they're literally a new rebellion against the Imperial Remnant in the form of the First Order. That handful of X-Wings is all they have.

When you're grabbing ships to start a rebellion you want commonality if possible, it significantly eases logistics. Also Y-wings were obsolete in 4, by now they're probably useless.



Actually, no. If you're an empire or other force maintaining a standing army you want commonality so as to reduce ongoing costs. Rebels take anything they can get their hands on. Thus the rag-tag nature of the Alliance fleet and its snubfighter escorts. Also irl - Toyota trucks AKs, Mosins, M-4s. You don't care what you have so long as it shoots. Beggars and choosers.


Also want commonality to cut back costs on art department and special effects but thats just too cynical, right?


Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:05 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
As opposed to the Rebellion, the "Resistance" (despite its strange name) was supported by "legitimate" government, the New Republic. It's not clear why the Republic itself was not able to directly oppose the First Order (since they apparently did have a fleet of their own) and required a proxy, but it's reasonable to expect that the Resistance had access to the latest weaponry.

I think it may be premature to assume that the combatants don't have any more forces than we saw in Ep.VII. This would be like concluding from Ep.IV that the Empire only had 3 cruisers and the Rebellion only had about 30 snub fighters.

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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Arioch wrote:
As opposed to the Rebellion, the "Resistance" (despite its strange name) was supported by "legitimate" government, the New Republic. It's not clear why the Republic itself was not able to directly oppose the First Order (since they apparently did have a fleet of their own) and required a proxy, but it's reasonable to expect that the Resistance had access to the latest weaponry.
Supposedly they aren't supported by the Republic, but instead by factions within it. The Republic's government was supposedly sitting fat & happy, more interested with internal matters than with external threats that they mistakenly thought were obeying old treaties. The alien & black woman speaking with each other on that planet that got blown up were the current prime minister (or whatever the position was, basically an alternate-universe take on Neville Chamberlain), and a representative of General/Princess Leia, respectively (apparently Leia was in the dog house).

Arioch wrote:
I think it may be premature to assume that the combatants don't have any more forces than we saw in Ep.VII. This would be like concluding from Ep.IV that the Empire only had 3 cruisers and the Rebellion only had about 30 snub fighters.
I'd expect that there were at least some detached elements at the very least, possibly a bunch of Wraith Squadron equivalents; probably, however, the actual size of the Resistance proper is presumably fairly small, with most of it's "membership" being more of affiliates & acquaintances (such as Han or Finn). I assume the next movie will either see a major uptick in Republic support (even if just individual planetary governments, instead of the Republic proper), or some sort of trial scene for Leia, ala Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country. Or maybe the Empire proper steps in on one side or another (
New Order vs ( Empire + Resistance ) vs Republic would be passingly amusing).


Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:44 pm
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Nemo wrote:
Actually, no. If you're an empire or other force maintaining a standing army you want commonality so as to reduce ongoing costs. Rebels take anything they can get their hands on. Thus the rag-tag nature of the Alliance fleet and its snubfighter escorts. Also irl - Toyota trucks AKs, Mosins, M-4s. You don't care what you have so long as it shoots. Beggars and choosers.


More or less gonna restate what Arioch said but, the Resistance is pretty clearly a guerilla force made up of former Rebellion/New Republic people. They would have likely gotten all their gear from the New Republic in one way or another, thus they would likely have standardized quite a bit. Also consider as a counterpoint, in A New Hope they only had 2 types of fighters and those were actually separate roles, the X-Wing was a superiority fighter and the Y-wing was a bomber. So it's not like they had 15 differents models hodge-podged together.

On a related note it amuses me when games or TV shows or movie series have combatants coming out with dozens of models over the span of just a couple of years. Given how long the development cycles are getting for pretty much everything these days the idea of an entirely new starship with all new parts being designed in a few months is laughable.


Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:45 am
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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
Especially in this Republic in which technology does not seem to have advanced very much in a thousand years.

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Post Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED
I remember reading several times that the technology in the Star Wars universe has plateaued for several thousand years; with no one really making any new innovations other than streamlining existing technology then losing that tech in war or economic downturns.

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