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Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

FTL travel and sub-light travel are largely separate systems in the Outsider universe. Other than establishing the ship's real-space trajectory, the thrusters are not the same system that allows them to go faster than light. The mothership does need to have a bigger FTL drive than a ship of the same size without gunboats would.

Electronic warfare can blind sensors at close range for short periods of time, but it does not make cosmic detection difficult. Decoys don't work in deep space, because they don't accelerate with the same profile as the real target. Even in orbit, our current tech level on Earth can quickly detect and track every single rocket, stage, and piece of debris without difficulty. It may take some time to analyze what each object is when they are not accelerating, but the moment any piece of previously inert debris accelerates, it raises a very rapid response.

Launching gunboats does not protect the mothership from attack. You'll notice that the Umiak that launched the gunboats also charged at the Loroi lines. Unarmed supply vessels are prime targets for the faster Loroi raiders.


Mothership not need sub-light engine with a thrust of giving acceleration like that develops gunboat.
Engine, right Mothership easier. Accordingly, the total weight is less. A subsonic engine gunboats easier because it does not need to accelerate the FTL drive. Accordingly, the FTL drive is needed less powerful.

Jammers work until they energized. Will be needed to combat the interference during the day continuously - Jammers are working day and night continuously. What is now such space there - says only about our level of development. Decoy of medium-range torpedoes can develop acceleration of the ship within the hour. The battle lasted half an hour.

If a stock of fuel on board the gunboat comparable to the supply of fuel long-range torpedoes, and autonomous flight time in a dozen hours to run their mothership can hours before the fight, and at a distance of dozens of light-seconds. An hour before the fight, and at a distance of light-seconds, run long-range torpedoes. Converges closer to the target for the Umiak fleet needed only in special cases. For example, if you can not prevent the destruction of a valuable artifact in the battle, which is located near the enemy fleet. :)
Unarmed supply vessels in the zone of possible enemy attack carried out in protected convoys.
The result of attempts to fast raiders intercept the convoys - the sinking of the "Bismarck" and damaged "Tirpitz".


Last edited by Jack on Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:31 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Arioch wrote:
A jump...

Type-KT Strike Cruiser
Deadweight Mass: 400 kt
17 000 tn = 4.25% .
Weight remaining heavy ships is about?
According to my calculations on the basis of the frequency by one Umiak heavy ship, there is one light destroyer, plus one gunboat or a heavy gunboat.
This is less than 6% by mass of a heavy ship, and less than 10% mass for medium ships.
On average one Umiak medium ship an average of 1-3 gunboats or heavy gunboats. Moreover, for medium ships usually 6% to 10% rarely. Usually 1-2 at the towing point Umiak ships free for traffic.

Question: How many torpedoes are on the external load heavy gunboats and light destroyers?


Last edited by Jack on Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:02 am, edited 4 times in total.



Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:45 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Quote:
This will not require additional machinery, just the normal nav system + FTL engines.

This will not require additional machinery, just will require additional machinery. :o
Goodbye!


Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:50 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

I would suggest that it is a mistake to consider a gunboat an independent fighting unit. It is probably a mistake to think about any Umiak ship as an independent fighting unit, rather than a part of the fleet as a whole. There are no cost savings by moving a component off of one ship in the fleet and placing it on another ship in the fleet. I'm not sure how many different ways there are of saying the same thing, but gunboats need FTL engines. That the engines are placed on the mothership does not provide any substantial cost savings.

There is no speed of sound in space.

If a decoy can accelerate like a torpedo, then it is a torpedo, not a decoy.

Quote:
Unarmed supply vessels in the zone of possible enemy attack carried out in protected convoys.
This does not make any sense in space. First of all, dedicating a portion of their fleet to guard the convoy will, clearly, reduce the fighting power of their attack force, because those defenders could have been used to attack their opponent. And there is no curvature of the Earth in space to keep their supply ships out of line of sight of the longer range Loroi pulse cannon.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:36 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I would suggest that it is a mistake to consider a gunboat an independent fighting unit. It is probably a mistake to think about any Umiak ship as an independent fighting unit, rather than a part of the fleet as a whole. There are no cost savings by moving a component off of one ship in the fleet and placing it on another ship in the fleet. I'm not sure how many different ways there are of saying the same thing, but gunboats need FTL engines. That the engines are placed on the mothership does not provide any substantial cost savings.

I fully agree: Umiak fleet consists of ships complexes in which the parameters of an individual ship is optimized to work together, and are not "random" or "made at the request of the crew."
Optimization of complex systems by placing it in the most suitable places gives a significant gain in weight. For example, you can compare weight for the guidance the sonar antisubmarine missiles when placed on a ship, it's a hundred tons, and the ship's helicopter is a ton.

icekatze wrote:
There is no speed of sound in space.

Do not understand. What does the speed of sound has a duration of jamming?

icekatze wrote:
If a decoy can accelerate like a torpedo, then it is a torpedo, not a decoy.

Decoy has a stock of fuel like a torpedo. Decoy accelerated as the simulated ship.

icekatze wrote:
This does not make any sense in space. First of all, dedicating a portion of their fleet to guard the convoy will, clearly, reduce the fighting power of their attack force, because those defenders could have been used to attack their opponent. And there is no curvature of the Earth in space to keep their supply ships out of line of sight of the longer range Loroi pulse cannon.

First protection of convoys needed to supply the fleet. Second destruction raiders weakens fleet Loroi.
The interstellar war has an event horizon, which protects from enemy guns which reliable horizon of the Earth in today's wars. :)


Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

jack wrote:
A subsonic engine gunboats easier...
jack wrote:
What does the speed of sound has a duration of jamming?
I don't know, you tell me.

jack wrote:
Decoy has a stock of fuel like a torpedo.
Then it is a torpedo. Any observer can calculate it's mass and fuel capacity just by looking at the exhaust plume.

jack wrote:
The interstellar war has an event horizon, which protects from enemy guns which reliable horizon of the Earth in today's wars."
Now you're just making stuff up out of whole cloth.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:54 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi
jack wrote:
A subsonic engine gunboats easier...
jack wrote:
What does the speed of sound has a duration of jamming?
I don't know, you tell me.

I'm sorry. Correctly: sub-light engine.

icekatze wrote:
jack wrote:
Decoy has a stock of fuel like a torpedo.
Then it is a torpedo. Any observer can calculate it's mass and fuel capacity just by looking at the exhaust plume.

Modern aircraft decoys imitate the torch jet engine. Space decoy will have to imitate the torch rocket engine. Unlike decoy from the target can be - but this takes time. And the lack of interference in the form of torches other ships and torpedoes, flying plasmoids and explosions, works enemy electronic countermeasures systems - they are today, and an optical band of electromagnetic waves cover the noise.

icekatze wrote:
jack wrote:
The interstellar war has an event horizon, which protects from enemy guns which reliable horizon of the Earth in today's wars."
Now you're just making stuff up out of whole cloth.

Not sure I understand correctly. Google translator does not know this idiom.
When posting a convoy of ships interstellar forces patrol ships will be checked stellar systems through which the convoy will. If the raider jumps in controlled star system - it tells neighbors about it, alerting the convoy ships. To raider was in the same star system as the convoy, he needs to jump into the system from the point far enough to not warn about it and it was in that period of time when a convoy in this star system. How raider from this "far enough point" learns about the coming of the convoy into this system?


Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:41 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Modern aircraft decoys imitate the torch jet engine. Space decoy will have to imitate the torch rocket engine.

In order for a decoy to resemble a torpedo, it has to have a bright exhaust plume that looks like a torpedo's, and it has to accelerate at 40-60G. The only thing at this technology level that can do that for more than a few seconds is a real torpedo engine using real torpedo fuel. Since the engine and fuel is really all there is to a real torpedo (its fuel is its warhead), then your "decoy" is just as expensive as a torpedo. It is a real torpedo.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Arioch wrote:
In order for a decoy to resemble a torpedo, it has to have a bright exhaust plume that looks like a torpedo's, and it has to accelerate at 40-60G.

Decoy mimics the ship. And accelerates like a ship - 24-30 g.
Yes, the decoy is likely to be as expensive as a real torpedo.

How many external nodes suspension arms from heavy gunboats and light destroyers?


Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:09 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Arioch wrote:
In order for a decoy to resemble a torpedo, it has to have a bright exhaust plume that looks like a torpedo's, and it has to accelerate at 40-60G.

Decoy mimics the ship. And accelerates like a ship - 24-30 g.
Yes, the decoy is likely to be as expensive as a real torpedo.

That makes it useless as a decoy. You would be better off firing more real torpedoes.

Arioch wrote:
How many external nodes suspension arms from heavy gunboats and light destroyers?

If you mean external racks for torpedoes, it varies from ship to ship. Umiak vessels are not uniform.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Arioch wrote:
That makes it useless as a decoy. You would be better off firing more real torpedoes.

Decoy MALD-J (red). Speed like an airplane. Size as at medium-range missiles.
Image
Why is such a concept in space is not possible?

Arioch wrote:
If you mean external racks for torpedoes, it varies from ship to ship. Umiak vessels are not uniform.

Even in a completely random event is the actual distribution and average values.
What are the average values for the types of ships "heavy gunboat" and "light destroyer"?


Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:33 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Arioch wrote:
That makes it useless as a decoy. You would be better off firing more real torpedoes.

Decoy MALD-J (red). Speed like an airplane. Size as at medium-range missiles.
Spoiler: show
Image

Why is such a concept in space is not possible?


It IS possible to create a decoy. What Arioch is saying is that if, as you said, a decoy is just as expensive as a real torpedo, there would be no reason not to just fire a real torpedo instead.

The only way a decoy is useful is if it less expensive than an actual weapon. The example you have listed, the ADM-160 MALD, was specifically created to be small and low cost. As Arioch has explained, because the engine and fuel are the most expensive and distinctive parts of any torpedo in the Outsider universe, a low cost decoy version would not be possible.

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Last edited by joestej on Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:49 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
joestej wrote:
It IS possible to create a decoy. What Arioch is saying is that if, as you said, a decoy is just as expensive as a real torpedo, there would be no reason not to just fire a real torpedo instead.

The only way a decoy is useful is if it less expensive than an actual weapon. The example you have listed, the ADM-160 MALD, was specifically created to be small and low cost. As Arioch has explained, because the engine and fuel are the most expensive and distinctive parts of any torpedo in the Outsider universe, a low cost decoy version would not be possible.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/mald/ - MALD decoy mimics jets. Several times it was said that the decoy mimics a spaceship, not a torpedo.

Forum is a place where a person communicates with itself, for some reason pretending to be another person responsible.
:lol:


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Forum is a place where a person communicates with itself, for some reason pretending to be another person responsible.

I realize that the language barrier is a problem, but don't blame other people because you are not making yourself clear. We are having difficulty understanding what you're saying.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Arioch wrote:
I realize that the language barrier is a problem, but don't blame other people because you are not making yourself clear. We are having difficulty understanding what you're saying.

If I have offended - excuse me. Smiley in the proposal because it was a joke.


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Thu Jan 21, 2016 12:44 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
joestej wrote:
It IS possible to create a decoy. What Arioch is saying is that if, as you said, a decoy is just as expensive as a real torpedo, there would be no reason not to just fire a real torpedo instead.

The only way a decoy is useful is if it less expensive than an actual weapon. The example you have listed, the ADM-160 MALD, was specifically created to be small and low cost. As Arioch has explained, because the engine and fuel are the most expensive and distinctive parts of any torpedo in the Outsider universe, a low cost decoy version would not be possible.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/mald/ - MALD decoy mimics jets. Several times it was said that the decoy mimics a spaceship, not a torpedo.

Forum is a place where a person communicates with itself, for some reason pretending to be another person responsible.
:lol:


Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

The reason a torpedo could never be created that mimics the signatures created by a space ship is because of the HUGE differences between the energy emitted by a missile and a ship. To quote THIS site:

Quote:
First off, a decoy needs to emit a similar amount of radiation and heat as the ship it is pretending to be. This means each decoy needs a power source comparable in size to a full ship, the same goes for radiator area.

If the decoy and the real ship thrusts, it becomes worse. The exhaust plume has to be the same, which means both the decoy and the real ship has to have the same thrust. This means the decoy has to have the same mass as a real ship, or it will accelerate faster, thus giving itself away. If you down-rate the decoy's thrust, the dimness of the exhaust plume will give it away.

So if each decoy needs a spaceship sized engine in a spaceship sized hull with a spaceship sized mass isn't much of a decoy. Why not add weapons an make it an actual spaceship?

And you'd better add defenses as well. Otherwise the decoy is nothing more than an unusually expensive, unusually easy to destroy missile.


EDIT: I didn't realize it when I posted the link and quote, but Outsider actually gets a mention down at very the bottom of the page, where it talks about exactly what realistic space sensors would reveal. I guess it's a small internet!

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

In an atmosphere, decoys can use the atmosphere itself and different aerodynamics to alter their acceleration and exhaust profile. A decoy missile in an atmosphere can use diffusion, and possibly advection with the surrounding air to generate a heat signature, where in space you can only use your exhaust and radiation to produce a heat signature. Atmospheric decoys can also use a less streamlined form so that they do not over-accelerate.

In space, there is no way to mask a decoy's mass and fuel. If it uses some kind of cheaper conventional fuel, the exhaust will clearly be different. If they make the decoy lighter, but give it the same engine, it will accelerate much faster and then burn out early. If they reduce the power output of the decoy so that it does not burn out early, then it no longer looks like a torpedo to sensors.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
joestej wrote:
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

The reason a torpedo could never be created that mimics the signatures created by a space ship is because of the HUGE differences between the energy emitted by a missile and a ship. To quote THIS site:

All right.

The site is very good. I read it and like it. But some inaccuracies in the information it has.
The energy stored on board the decoy several orders of magnitude smaller than on board the ship, which accelerates much longer makes interstellar jumping and firing of the guns, uses active sensors for a long time.
Decoy specifically spend the energy to emit the same as the real purpose. For example, if the cost of the ship's heat sinks, at the decoy will be special heating elements that will radiate as much heat.
On the simulation engine torch I have said.
If you have time to calmly explore the purpose and decoy, you will be able to distinguish between them. If decoys maneuver together in tight group with this purpose, and between the observer and the target are flying other ships, torpedoes and gunfire, explosions, to distinguish the real purpose of the decoy it becomes difficult. Analysis time is limited progress of the battle.
Therefore, the creation of space decoys - possible. They will not always be effective for all types of sensors, from all possible angles and in all possible situations.
However, a specific task such as "reduce the effectiveness of fire Loroi ships (with a list of specific sensors) in a frontal approximation of fleet from 400 000 to 40 mm" - decoys can perform.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi
In space, there is no way to mask a decoy's mass and fuel. If it uses some kind of cheaper conventional fuel, the exhaust will clearly be different. If they make the decoy lighter, but give it the same engine, it will accelerate much faster and then burn out early. If they reduce the power output of the decoy so that it does not burn out early, then it no longer looks like a torpedo to sensors.

There are ways. You can change the shape of the flame of the engine, simulating several small one large. You can reset the fuel in the torch so that it is reacted engine - without giving traction, but giving the exhaust and emission intensity. You can throw the ballast weight by linear accelerators, changing the velocity vector and calculates the thrust vector for him in the right direction. One can "wrap" the torch fuel exhaust of one type of another type. And to add to the torch rocket engine substances that change the emission spectrum.

To achieve the goal, there is always more than one way.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
joestej wrote:
Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.

The reason a torpedo could never be created that mimics the signatures created by a space ship is because of the HUGE differences between the energy emitted by a missile and a ship. To quote THIS site:

All right.

The site is very good. I read it and like it. But some inaccuracies in the information it has.
The energy stored on board the decoy several orders of magnitude smaller than on board the ship, which accelerates much longer makes interstellar jumping and firing of the guns, uses active sensors for a long time.
Decoy specifically spend the energy to emit the same as the real purpose. For example, if the cost of the ship's heat sinks, at the decoy will be special heating elements that will radiate as much heat.
On the simulation engine torch I have said.
If you have time to calmly explore the purpose and decoy, you will be able to distinguish between them. If decoys maneuver together in tight group with this purpose, and between the observer and the target are flying other ships, torpedoes and gunfire, explosions, to distinguish the real purpose of the decoy it becomes difficult. Analysis time is limited progress of the battle.
Therefore, the creation of space decoys - possible. They will not always be effective for all types of sensors, from all possible angles and in all possible situations.
However, a specific task such as "reduce the effectiveness of fire Loroi ships (with a list of specific sensors) in a frontal approximation of fleet from 400 000 to 40 mm" - decoys can perform.


Anything capable of recreating the level of heat and radiation created by a ship's reactor would likely be just as expensive as the reactor it is pretending to be. At the very least it would be quite large and expensive, nothing near the size of a torpedo.

I read your explanation on mimicking a torch's signature, but found it unconvincing. The difference between a 20 meter torpedo's mass and a 120 meter gunship's mass is so great that you would need a mountain of modifications to hide the variations in their plumes, assuming that you're right and such a thing even can be hidden. This means you've now got the engine of a gunship, tons of fuel, dozens of expensive modifications, and a false reactor mounted on your 'expendable' decoy. The size and complexity of these devices continues to grow.

Tight groupings of ships is something that does not happen in the Outsider universe. Arioch has already said that the only reason ships seem close together is because the comic would be visually boring otherwise. In reality all ships are hundreds or thousands of kilometers apart, making their signals very easy to differentiate. So hiding your decoys with the 'background noise' of battle wouldn't be an option.

While I'm quite sure that with enough work a decoy like what you are proposing could be built and used in the manner you are describing, it would be almost as expensive as the ship it mimicked and the deception would be revealed quite quickly. The Umiak would not find such a technology attractive. The Bugs like things cheap, simple, and easily replaced, and these decoys are none of those things.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
However, a specific task such as "reduce the effectiveness of fire Loroi ships (with a list of specific sensors) in a frontal approximation of fleet from 400 000 to 40 mm" - decoys can perform.


Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
GeoModder wrote:
Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.


In fairness to the idea though, if any fleet could pull off the decoy trick it would be the Umiak. The fact that their ships are so variable means that they'll all have variable exhaust plumes, making the mimics that much harder to sift out. But I agree, even if it could be made to work it doesn't really fit with how they like to do battle. Loroi seem to like subtlety and clever tricks, but the Umiak appear to prefer just hammering the enemy until there's nothing left.

Now, a slightly more workable idea might be adding deployable decoys onto Umiak torpedoes to confuse Loroi AMMs. That's not nearly as complex or expensive, though it wouldn't do a thing against PD lasers. Still, more mass for decoys means more fuel would have to be burnt to reach the target, which means less damage on impact, so the Umiak likely wouldn't bother with such a system. There's plenty more torpedoes where those came from, after all...

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
joestej wrote:
Anything capable of recreating the level of heat and radiation created by a ship's reactor would likely be just as expensive as the reactor it is pretending to be... The size and complexity of these devices continues to grow.

Tight groupings of ships is something that does not happen in the Outsider universe. Arioch has already said that the only reason ships seem close together is because the comic would be visually boring otherwise. In reality all ships are hundreds or thousands of kilometers apart, making their signals very easy to differentiate. So hiding your decoys with the 'background noise' of battle wouldn't be an option.

While I'm quite sure that with enough work a decoy like what you are proposing could be built and used in the manner you are describing, it would be almost as expensive as the ship it mimicked and the deception would be revealed quite quickly. The Umiak would not find such a technology attractive. The Bugs like things cheap, simple, and easily replaced, and these decoys are none of those things.


Produce radiation and heat in the order of magnitude easier than useful work. Decoy ADM-20B length of 4 meters, 1960, B-52 simulates a 50 m long, including thermal radiation its eight motors and radio waves from the radar it ensures that.
Image
With a distance of 400 000 kilometers a group within which the distance of 100-1000 kilometers will be a tight group.

There is decoy no FTL drive, navigation system, sensors, life support systems and weapons. On-board energy supply decoy several orders of magnitude smaller than that of the ship. Tricks that are discussed, aimed at the mass of false targets and used the power of the engine it was several orders of magnitude less than that of a ship.

Umiak make expensive extra long-distance range torpedoes, heavy ships under them with expensive, complicated and not useful for anything other guidance systems.
The author argues that Umiak spent on the creation of standards of all ship systems to their full compatibility with each other in all possible combinations. This is a very expensive project of long duration, the results of which quickly replaced, in principle, impossible.

So the available data on weapons and ships umiak create a picture of the race with a long and extensive planning.
Loroi not able to copy even the most simple short-range plasma focus Umiak - clear evidence of the complexity of the technology Umiak.


Last edited by Jack on Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
GeoModder wrote:
Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.

If Umiak would act in such a way they would not have reached its current can.

joestej wrote:
Still, more mass for decoys means more fuel would have to be burnt to reach the target, which means less damage on impact, so the Umiak likely wouldn't bother with such a system.

Hit torpedo weighing tens of tons on the relative speed of hundreds of kilometers per second, with a large margin is enough for almost any ship.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/w ... files.html
Loroi AMM-500| Umiak FMR Torpedo
400kg KKV| 30 000 kg (KKV x 75)
Max speed - 120 km/sec.| 972 km/sec (KKV x 8)
Damage - 15. | ? 8 x 75 = 600 KKV = 9000 (OVER! :lol: )


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Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:35 pm
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Location: Middle of Nowhere
Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

There is no convection of thermal energy in space, and radiators do not look like exhaust.

The ADM-20B was so bad at it's job that the Strategic Air Command wrote the USAF Chief of Staff and said that it was "Only slightly better than nothing," and it was discontinued shortly after as a failed product. It is even harder to fool sensors in space than it is in the atmosphere.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:33 pm
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