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Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
GeoModder wrote:
Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.

If Umiak would act in such a way they would not have reached its current can.


Actually, they can. It has been stated in these forums and the Insider that the Umiak are absolute masters of mass production. Not only can they mass produce weaponry and ships, they can also mass produce themselves. And, they can do so in staggering numbers.

This point should hammer home why the Umiak wouldn't actually need decoys - they will always have enough torpedoes. The Umiak are fully aware that Loroi point defenses will eliminate the majority of the torpedoes, but that's the point. The Umiak use their torpedoes to flood Loroi defenses until they are able to close the distance with their capital ships. The torpedoes themselves are the decoys.

Jack wrote:
joestej wrote:
Still, more mass for decoys means more fuel would have to be burnt to reach the target, which means less damage on impact, so the Umiak likely wouldn't bother with such a system.

Hit torpedo weighing tens of tons on the relative speed of hundreds of kilometers per second, with a large margin is enough for almost any ship.
http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/w ... files.html
Loroi AMM-500| Umiak FMR Torpedo
400kg KKV| 30 000 kg (KKV x 75)
Max speed - 120 km/sec.| 972 km/sec (KKV x 8)
Damage - 15. | ? 8 x 75 = 600 KKV = 9000 (OVER! :lol: )


I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here other than that if you have a decoy that can replicate the thrust and acceleration characteristics of a capital ship, you actually have a weapon. In other words, your decoy is dangerous enough to be a torpedo.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:34 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

There is no convection of thermal energy in space, and radiators do not look like exhaust.

The ADM-20B was so bad at it's job that the Strategic Air Command wrote the USAF Chief of Staff and said that it was "Only slightly better than nothing," and it was discontinued shortly after as a failed product. It is even harder to fool sensors in space than it is in the atmosphere.

In vacuum there is no convection, heat radiation only. About possible methods for emulation plume rocket engine was above the post. The answer to it is better to write a response to it.

This phrase was said in 1970. Then ADM-20 of all three versions, including the ADM-20B began to shoot with weapons. This comes after almost 20 years of service, and the rapid development of electronics.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:25 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Quote:
This will not require additional machinery, just the normal nav system + FTL engines.

This will not require additional machinery, just will require additional machinery. :o
Goodbye!
You fail. That response was ONLY targeted at your conjecture of additional navigational systems, as you would know if you paid better attention to the response that I posted. The section that was targeted at FTL drives did say that they were an additional piece of machinery.

Jack wrote:
Arioch wrote:
That makes it useless as a decoy. You would be better off firing more real torpedoes.

Decoy MALD-J (red). Speed like an airplane. Size as at medium-range missiles.
Image
Why is such a concept in space is not possible?
Exhaust traits + acceleration traits == mass * thrust. If they can detect the difference between your "doped" exhaust plume and a normal exhaust plume then they will know that something weird is going on with the decoy. Examples of differences are:
1) the wrong arrangement of frequency bands,
2) the wrong blue-shift of frequency bands,
3) the wrong diameter of thrust plume,
4) the thrust plume cooling too quickly,
5) the thrust plume reflecting more of a particular frequency than other, otherwise similar thrust plumes,
6) the wrong shape of exhaust plume.

All of this combined means that it is either impossible to disguise the thrust of an exhaust plume, or almost impossible, because there is nothing to confuse sensors on any of these subjects. If ECM is close enough to confuse enemy sensors then you're very close to them. If you aren't already very close to the enemy, then your ECM won't work because the signal is too weak, and the enemy dodges too often for your directed-beam ECM to hit the enemy with the strengthened signal.

Also, improved electronics won't help much in disguising the nature of the thrust plume: the exhaust plume will be hundreds (or hundreds of thousands) of miles long, producing far too large a signature for the highly-localized ECM to disguise. You'd need to place ECM drones along the length of the plume, at which point THOSE get noticed and alert the enemy that the thrust plume is weird.

Jack wrote:
joestej wrote:
It IS possible to create a decoy. What Arioch is saying is that if, as you said, a decoy is just as expensive as a real torpedo, there would be no reason not to just fire a real torpedo instead.

The only way a decoy is useful is if it less expensive than an actual weapon. The example you have listed, the ADM-160 MALD, was specifically created to be small and low cost. As Arioch has explained, because the engine and fuel are the most expensive and distinctive parts of any torpedo in the Outsider universe, a low cost decoy version would not be possible.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/mald/ - MALD decoy mimics jets. Several times it was said that the decoy mimics a spaceship, not a torpedo.

Forum is a place where a person communicates with itself, for some reason pretending to be another person responsible.
:lol:
Oh, so you admit that you're not really reading our posts! :lol:


Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:29 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr Bojangles wrote:
Actually, they can. It has been stated in these forums and the Insider that the Umiak are absolute masters of mass production. Not only can they mass produce weaponry and ships, they can also mass produce themselves. And, they can do so in staggering numbers.

Mass production requires a complex, highly developed organization. The complex logistics, optimization of the structure under the available technologies and resources, mining and processing resources on a large scale.
Any nation, the ability to organize mass production, has great intellectual resources at its disposal.
And then these resources will be used, including for other tasks.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
This point should hammer home why the Umiak wouldn't actually need decoys - they will always have enough torpedoes. The Umiak are fully aware that Loroi point defenses will eliminate the majority of the torpedoes, but that's the point. The Umiak use their torpedoes to flood Loroi defenses until they are able to close the distance with their capital ships. The torpedoes themselves are the decoys.

Torpedo Umiak not enough to destroy enemy ships, so they are forced to ships under enemy fire. But Umiak will not make decoys, because they lack the torpedoes to keep ships under enemy fire.
Hence the logical conclusion that the meaning of life Umiak - died under enemy fire.
Without increasing the number of torpedoes to destroy the enemy. A slow approach 4 blisters Loroi the small launch range "Tolot 's two heavy vehicles shows that it is possible. And the defeat of the two ships is very slow "Tolot" -s indicates that the defeat torpedoes possible.
And be sure to fly under enemy fire from the FTL drive, long-range sensors, life support system of long duration, other expensive systems useless in a fight at short range. And without distracting the enemy from his ship decoys. And not bothering him aiming jamming.
These are Umiak idiots. However, Umiak not so stupid that managed to organize mass production of highly complex technology that Loroi can not even copy.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
I'm not sure what exactly you're saying here other than that if you have a decoy that can replicate the thrust and acceleration characteristics of a capital ship, you actually have a weapon. In other words, your decoy is dangerous enough to be a torpedo.

By the decoy that thought does not apply.
In most cases, when a torpedo hit the rest of its fuel is not important because the kinetic energy of a torpedo is enormous. The explosion of the reactor to torpedo becomes important at low velocities relative to the target. But the probability of a torpedo fire zone defense at low relative speed is low.
Therefore, in most cases, when properly used, fuel remaining in contact with the torpedo is not important. Even a small torpedo strike only the kinetic energy of damage equal to tens and hundreds of hits pulse cannon Loroi. What in the world of comics still destroy almost any vehicle.


Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:59 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Absalom wrote:
Oh, so you admit that you're not really reading our posts! :lol:

You copied the questions that have already been convicted in this topic. I can copy the answers written earlier. But I am sure that it is better not to make too much flooding.

Gunboats, with the support of the mothership navigation system is not needed. In case of an emergency navigation system from weak gunboats should be - allowing to get to the planet during the flight in the star system, approximately.

On simulating plume rocket engine and exhaust above it was actually written post.


Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
GeoModder wrote:
Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.

If Umiak would act in such a way they would not have reached its current can.)

It should be apparent they did reach their current size, even with a spentdrift towards crews and ships.

Jack wrote:
A slow approach 4 blisters Loroi the small launch range "Tolot 's two heavy vehicles shows that it is possible. And the defeat of the two ships is very slow "Tolot" -s indicates that the defeat torpedoes possible.

The use of Tolot's definitely is a straight-forward, localized swarm tactic. Note that 2 out of 4 of those Tolot's were destroyed before they released their submunitions.

Jack wrote:
These are Umiak idiots. However, Umiak not so stupid that managed to organize mass production of highly complex technology that Loroi can not even copy.

According to the Insider, the Umiak are a dimorphized race. What counts for one part of the race doesn't necessary count for another part.
Heck, there's even parts of our own race that willingly go into suicidal combat for the most idiotic reasons or ideologies, while others wouldn't dream of it.

Jack wrote:
Therefore, in most cases, when properly used, fuel remaining in contact with the torpedo is not important. Even a small torpedo strike only the kinetic energy of damage equal to tens and hundreds of hits pulse cannon Loroi. What in the world of comics still destroy almost any vehicle.

I'm afraid antimatter "fuel" might have another view on that. ;)

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Last edited by GeoModder on Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:53 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:27 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I imagine the language barrier is what's leading to all this confusion, jack, but I'll try again:

jack wrote:
Mass production requires a complex, highly developed organization. The complex logistics, optimization of the structure under the available technologies and resources, mining and processing resources on a large scale.
Any nation, the ability to organize mass production, has great intellectual resources at its disposal.
And then these resources will be used, including for other tasks.


I know. All the major combatants have complex, highly developed economies and industries. Humanity in Outsider is complex and highly developed. That's pretty much a given at their respective tech levels. My response to you was for this reply you made to GeoModder:

Jack wrote:
GeoModder wrote:
Except that seemingly the Umiak don't care too much about losses, so might see the use of a dedicated decoy a loss of direct offensive power in the heat of battle, because of the resources used for it.

If Umiak would act in such a way they would not have reached its current can.


You seem to imply that if the Umiak acted as if they didn't care about losses, they couldn't have reached their current standing. As shown in the Insider and various discussions on this forum, this is a false statement. The Umiak don't care and are willing to pay any cost to insure their victory; it's their established racial psychology. And, I mean that literally: that's how they have been defined for this story.

jack wrote:
Torpedo Umiak not enough to destroy enemy ships, so they are forced to ships under enemy fire. But Umiak will not make decoys, because they lack the torpedoes to keep ships under enemy fire.
Hence the logical conclusion that the meaning of life Umiak - died under enemy fire.
Without increasing the number of torpedoes to destroy the enemy. A slow approach 4 blisters Loroi the small launch range "Tolot 's two heavy vehicles shows that it is possible. And the defeat of the two ships is very slow "Tolot" -s indicates that the defeat torpedoes possible.
And be sure to fly under enemy fire from the FTL drive, long-range sensors, life support system of long duration, other expensive systems useless in a fight at short range. And without distracting the enemy from his ship decoys. And not bothering him aiming jamming.
These are Umiak idiots. However, Umiak not so stupid that managed to organize mass production of highly complex technology that Loroi can not even copy.


The Umiak purposely use torpedoes as decoys. They manufacture and launch them in massive numbers to overwhelm Loroi point defenses so that their own ships can close in with their own weapons, which have a shorter range than their Loroi equivalents. This is canon; an established fact of the Outsider universe. I am not telling you my theory of how the Umiak use their torpedoes - this is how things are.

Torpedoes being defeated is an entirely expected outcome by both Loroi and Umiak. The reason the Loroi don't use torpedoes more often is that they don't have the industrial capacity to make them a cost-efficient weapon. The Umiak are unusual in the fact that they actually make wide use of torpedoes. Again, this is Outsider canon.

I'm afraid I don't understand most of your last statement. The combat ranges of these ships are not short; they're the better part of a light-second. Even when these ships get "close," more often then not, they're still hundreds to thousands of kilometers apart. Given the inverse square law, an ECM suite that could pump out so much energy to effectively jam enemy ships is actually going to pose a threat to your own ship(s).

The Umiak aren't stupid; far from. They're just fighting the war to their strengths, which is what any warring nation would do. The Loroi have Farsense; the Umiak have what can best be described as a horrifying industrial capacity.

jack wrote:
In most cases, when a torpedo hit the rest of its fuel is not important because the kinetic energy of a torpedo is enormous. The explosion of the reactor to torpedo becomes important at low velocities relative to the target. But the probability of a torpedo fire zone defense at low relative speed is low.
Therefore, in most cases, when properly used, fuel remaining in contact with the torpedo is not important. Even a small torpedo strike only the kinetic energy of damage equal to tens and hundreds of hits pulse cannon Loroi. What in the world of comics still destroy almost any vehicle.


No. Both the Loroi and Umiak use exotic, extremely energy-dense fuels. It's similar to antimatter in its energy output. Even if the torpedo is down to its last few kilograms of fuel, the energy release will utterly dwarf the energy of a purely kinetic impact. That's not to say the torpedo couldn't achieve a purely kinetic kill; it does have a lot of energy. But, unless its velocity is a significant fraction of the speed of light, it would be better for the torpedo to have some fuel at the time of impact.


Last edited by Mr Bojangles on Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.



Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:55 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
GeoModder wrote:

Mr Bojangles wrote:
Therefore, in most cases, when properly used, fuel remaining in contact with the torpedo is not important. Even a small torpedo strike only the kinetic energy of damage equal to tens and hundreds of hits pulse cannon Loroi. What in the world of comics still destroy almost any vehicle.

I'm afraid antimatter "fuel" might have another view on that. ;)


Uh, I think you mis-attributed that quote, Geo. I'm pretty sure we're in agreement on torpedoes having fuel at time of impact. :)


Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:58 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr Bojangles wrote:
GeoModder wrote:

Mr Bojangles wrote:
Therefore, in most cases, when properly used, fuel remaining in contact with the torpedo is not important. Even a small torpedo strike only the kinetic energy of damage equal to tens and hundreds of hits pulse cannon Loroi. What in the world of comics still destroy almost any vehicle.

I'm afraid antimatter "fuel" might have another view on that. ;)


Uh, I think you mis-attributed that quote, Geo. I'm pretty sure we're in agreement on torpedoes having fuel at time of impact. :)


Sorry about that. Quote-embedded text walls tend to confuse me. :lol:

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Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:53 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr Bojangles wrote:
I imagine the language barrier is what's leading to all this confusion, jack, but I'll try again:

A truly thank you for your patience!

Mr Bojangles wrote:
I know. All the major combatants have complex, highly developed economies and industries. Humanity in Outsider is complex and highly developed. That's pretty much a given at their respective tech levels. My response to you was for this reply you made to GeoModder:

This is a different complexity. Human civilization, with two major industrial and scientific centers. Civilization Loroi with lots of industrial centers. Civilization Umiak with a lot of industrial centers and using the potential of the plurality of slave civilizations.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
You seem to imply that if the Umiak acted as if they didn't care about losses, they couldn't have reached their current standing. As shown in the Insider and various discussions on this forum, this is a false statement. The Umiak don't care and are willing to pay any cost to insure their victory; it's their established racial psychology. And, I mean that literally: that's how they have been defined for this story.

I do not understand what you're saying.
Military and psychology is a different science. Price losses in the military - is the resources and time spent on the production of lost weapons, training soldiers and units.
Do not take into account the price of losses in military affairs is impossible. It is still king Pyrrhus proved.
Umiak win the war, then the price of the loss estimate is correct.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak purposely use torpedoes as decoys. They manufacture and launch them in massive numbers to overwhelm Loroi point defenses so that their own ships can close in with their own weapons, which have a shorter range than their Loroi equivalents. This is canon; an established fact of the Outsider universe. I am not telling you my theory of how the Umiak use their torpedoes - this is how things are.

Decoys distracted the long-range guns Loroi. Torpedoes distract the medium-range and short-range weapons. At Loroi ships have different weapons range.
Loroi long-range guns do not shoot for torpedoes. And mechanism as umiak torpedo prevent their fire in the comic was not disclosed. The existing description of the battle pulse cannon hit on umiak ships all the time, in spite of the torpedo. Maybe you can explain the physical mechanism as a torpedo prevent shooting from long-range weapons?

Mr Bojangles wrote:
Torpedoes being defeated is an entirely expected outcome by both Loroi and Umiak. The reason the Loroi don't use torpedoes more often is that they don't have the industrial capacity to make them a cost-efficient weapon. The Umiak are unusual in the fact that they actually make wide use of torpedoes. Again, this is Outsider canon.

For firing long-range need an early warning system, long-range guidance system. Looking themselves launchers that can form dense enough for a volley of penetration of the enemy defense. Looking own torpedoes, large, heavy and expensive. All these systems require more resources to its development and production, take place on the ship, reducing its firepower in the battle in the middle and low range.
For shooting at 400 Mm do not need long-range torpedoes, the distance is medium-range torpedoes.
Of course, it is possible that the technical characteristics of weapons in the comic wrong. But I prefer the version that the characteristics of the weapons are correct - it makes the world works harder and more interesting than a simple war of beautiful elf with horrible monsters.
:)

Mr Bojangles wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand most of your last statement. The combat ranges of these ships are not short; they're the better part of a light-second. Even when these ships get "close," more often then not, they're still hundreds to thousands of kilometers apart. Given the inverse square law, an ECM suite that could pump out so much energy to effectively jam enemy ships is actually going to pose a threat to your own ship(s).

The battle on the course starting long-range torpedo and gunboats can go for tens of light-seconds, according to the characteristics of weapons.
Distance is not important because it is important for electronic warfare ratio of the interference level to the level of the signal.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak aren't stupid; far from. They're just fighting the war to their strengths, which is what any warring nation would do. The Loroi have Farsense; the Umiak have what can best be described as a horrifying industrial capacity.

In addition to the quality of the efficiency of its use there. Throw into the fire difficult and expensive starships in the presence of long-range torpedoes and gunboats to allow mother ships do not enter the zone of fire of the enemy - not rational in general.
How "in the torpedoes" are command cruiser and strike cruiser? The ships weighing 400 kT, is 800 000 tons of alloys and expensive equipment, the training of crews. Cheaper spend 800 000 / 120 = ~ 6000 long-range torpedoes, and not lose a single ship and any crew member. Given the difference in speed is about 24 000 "Tolot" in 600 DX blister.
I am sure, on the order of a weaker volley would suffice to 51 FAG disappeared as a fighting force.
Since that is shown in the comic use of ships and weapons Umiak - not rational. In general.
However, the situation is not common in combat. The battle is near the remains of an unknown ship - a valuable artifact. Plus Loroi inability to use its "early warning" - perhaps a property of this location, and early warning of the same does not work for Umiak, despite a completely different physical principle. In general, the situation is not clear in the comic book, and it is interesting comics.
It was written for Arioch. :)

Mr Bojangles wrote:
No. Both the Loroi and Umiak use exotic, extremely energy-dense fuels. It's similar to antimatter in its energy output. Even if the torpedo is down to its last few kilograms of fuel, the energy release will utterly dwarf the energy of a purely kinetic impact. That's not to say the torpedo couldn't achieve a purely kinetic kill; it does have a lot of energy. But, unless its velocity is a significant fraction of the speed of light, it would be better for the torpedo to have some fuel at the time of impact.

high-power long range torpedo
E=mc^2. m=1 kg antimatter +1 kg matter. E = 2*9*10^16=1.8*10^17 J ~ 43 Megaton of TNT
E=0.5mV^2. m=8*10^4 kg, V=1.8*10^6 m/sec. E=0.5*8*10^4*3.24*10^12=1.3*10^17 J ~ 31 Megaton of TNT
As we see, turned out to be the same order of power. And because the radius of the fireball explosion at a power of several kilometers - any ship of comics they will be destroyed. And if to hit a target lacks only the kinetic energy of even a small torpedo, the firing of guns in general useless, their damage is much less.

P.S. Perhaps, in the description of the ship's weapons should change factor in the the damage column torpedo - put 100 instead of 10?


Last edited by Jack on Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:05 am, edited 3 times in total.



Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:24 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
On simulating plume rocket engine and exhaust above it was actually written post.
I have no idea what you think this sentence means, but it is not a valid counter to my own statements about exhaust plumes. There are a handful of plume characteristics that are relevant for determining the thrust that was provided in the creation of the plume, and any attempt to disguise one set of characteristics to look like another set is almost guaranteed to fail, and becomes more likely to fail the closer the decoy gets to it's target.

joestej wrote:
Either way, since 25% of this thread is now nothing but our most recent argument, I'd say it's safe to move on to a new line of questioning...

It is quite obvious that Kikitik-27 is not a conventional Umiak commander, what with his habit of withdrawing rather than charging recklessly to his doom, etc. Even the Loroi have noticed. So my question is two-fold: how does Umiak Command view/deal with commanders like Kikitik who 'go against the grain', and is there a specific reason Kikitik is so different from other Umiak?
I imagine that they're fine with anything as long as it seems efficient. As for the source of the differences, I've been assuming that Kikitik is a member of the smartest of the three Umiak sub-species, while most commanders are a member of the middle-of-the-road sub-species.

Jack wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak purposely use torpedoes as decoys. They manufacture and launch them in massive numbers to overwhelm Loroi point defenses so that their own ships can close in with their own weapons, which have a shorter range than their Loroi equivalents. This is canon; an established fact of the Outsider universe. I am not telling you my theory of how the Umiak use their torpedoes - this is how things are.

Decoys distracted the long-range guns Loroi. Torpedoes distract the medium-range and short-range weapons. At Loroi ships have different weapons range.
Loroi long-range guns do not shoot for torpedoes. And mechanism as umiak torpedo prevent their fire in the comic was not disclosed. The existing description of the battle pulse cannon hit on umiak ships all the time, in spite of the torpedo. Maybe you can explain the physical mechanism as a torpedo prevent shooting from long-range weapons?
The Loroi apparently believe that if they wait for the torpedoes to enter medium-range before they start shooting at them, then the torpedoes will reach the Loroi ships before being destroyed. When you consider that Loroi strike-group ships are faster than Umiak ships (and thus can simply avoid anything larger than a destroyer if needed; the slower Loroi ships aren't used for strike groups for this very reason), but slower than Umiak torpedoes, this seems like a realistic possibility. At any rate, the Insider says:
Quote:
In either case, a hit from effective range can have catastrophic effects against almost any target.
Note that "effective range" is not kinetic-kill range, but instead much larger. Effective range can still be "knife fight" range if the torpedo simply explodes, but it can be short (or possibly even medium) range if the torpedo has a particle or laser beam warhead rigged to use the torpedo's explosion as a power source, making it much more dangerous for a single torpedo to enter short-range than for a single Umiak small-craft to enter short-range. Wintertide apparently sustained multiple hits from something, presumably the weapons of the destroyers that attacked the strike group, and survived long enough to begin damage-control operations. An equal number of torpedo strikes would likely have been much more fatal.

Another factor in the Umiak use of torpedoes is that the Umiak don't use fighters. Umiak "blister" torpedoes seem to be allocated to this role, as the "Rockeye" uses a swarm of Kinetic-kill submunitions (bomber/assault fighter replacement) and the "Scatter Pack" uses a swarm of micro-short range submunitions (replacement for anti-smallcraft fighters).

Jack wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
Torpedoes being defeated is an entirely expected outcome by both Loroi and Umiak. The reason the Loroi don't use torpedoes more often is that they don't have the industrial capacity to make them a cost-efficient weapon. The Umiak are unusual in the fact that they actually make wide use of torpedoes. Again, this is Outsider canon.

For firing long-range need an early warning system, long-range guidance system. Looking themselves launchers that can form dense enough for a volley of penetration of the enemy defense. Looking own torpedoes, large, heavy and expensive. All these systems require more resources to its development and production, take place on the ship, reducing its firepower in the battle in the middle and low range.
The number of torpedoes that any particular ship carries will usually be low enough that it will not significantly reduce the performance of the ship carrying them. This is particularly true during the actual attack-runs, when many ships will deploy all of their torpedoes on the way towards their target. The ships that carry large numbers of torpedoes will tend to either be expected to launch all of them very early in the battle, or will be expected to survive for multiple attack-runs despite not launching all of their torpedoes at the first chance (which of these is the case will depend on the individual situation).

Torpedo launchers will usually not be as expensive, heavy, etc., as an ordinary Umiak weapon. Some Umiak vessels don't even use launchers, but instead just strap the torpedoes to the outside of the ship, and "drop" them when they want the torpedoes to attack.

Jack wrote:
For shooting at 400 Mm do not need long-range torpedoes, the distance is medium-range torpedoes.
The reason to use long-range torpedoes in any given situation instead of just medium-range torpedoes is that long-range torpedoes can accelerate longer, and thus cover the distance faster. The exact usage of the different ranges and warheads of the torpedoes will depend on the tactical and strategic doctrine being followed.

Jack wrote:
Of course, it is possible that the technical characteristics of weapons in the comic wrong.
If you're talking about the way that the comic looks, then yes, it's wrong. Arioch has said that the distances in the comic are modified for the sake of making things look more interesting. The actual data is in the "Insider", which is text instead of comics.

Jack wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
I'm afraid I don't understand most of your last statement. The combat ranges of these ships are not short; they're the better part of a light-second. Even when these ships get "close," more often then not, they're still hundreds to thousands of kilometers apart. Given the inverse square law, an ECM suite that could pump out so much energy to effectively jam enemy ships is actually going to pose a threat to your own ship(s).

The battle on the course starting long-range torpedo and gunboats can go for tens of light-seconds, according to the characteristics of weapons.
Distance is not important because it is important for electronic warfare ratio of the interference level to the level of the signal.
Are you trying to say that distance isn't important for electronic warfare weapons because their signals can travel much further than the combat happens over? If so, then you're wrong. The ECM (electronic counter measures) needs to have a strong-enough signal to confuse the enemy sensors. To confuse the enemy sensors about a drive plume you need to start with a drive plume that has the correct characteristics, and make it stronger. Drive plumes are so long that you will need ECM devices scattered across hundreds, or thousands, or millions of miles. Every time that you adjust the direction that you are thrusting along, you will need ECM devices scattered along that drive plume as well. Even for the Umiak, this isn't practical, because you need to cover far too much of a volume with your ECM devices. Also, the ECM devices need to be very small, so that the enemy can't see them at a long distance, AND they need to be highly armored so that the drive plume doesn't destroy them (the higher the thrust and efficiency of an engine, the more destructive it's drive plume), both of which work against each other.

You can try just jamming the enemy sensors instead, but every time that you fail to jam them they'll be able to get a clear view of your drive plume. Over short distances you can jam them if you try, but Loroi ships maneuver fast enough that at 1 light-second of distance from you, they can have moved a full light-second before your jamming signal reached them, which means that focused jamming systems only have a little bit more range than actual laser weapons. Your enemy will usually start on the other side of the star-system from you, so they'll have determined that you're trying to disguise your drive-plumes long before your decoys are useful.

Jack wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
The Umiak aren't stupid; far from. They're just fighting the war to their strengths, which is what any warring nation would do. The Loroi have Farsense; the Umiak have what can best be described as a horrifying industrial capacity.

In addition to the quality of the efficiency of its use there. Throw into the fire difficult and expensive starships in the presence of long-range torpedoes and gunboats to allow mother ships do not enter the zone of fire of the enemy - not rational in general.
Loroi strike-group warships are much faster than most Umiak ships. If you try to just use motherships, torpedoes, & gunboats then the Loroi will modify their own practices accordingly, focusing on even faster ships (that can outrun even your gunboats), with strong anti-torpedo defenses (eliminating the only thing you have that can outrun them), and a few anti-capital-ship guns to destroy the motherships. The gunboats will quickly be stranded, at which point the Loroi can simply destroy them from long-range at their leisure, with no risk of the gunboats leaving the star system.

By having a mixture of attack options, the Umiak can prevent the Loroi from using their superior technology to it's maximum advantage, by forcing the Loroi to have a variety of ship types, most of which will be slow enough for the gunboats to distract them for a while.

Jack wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Kikitik would have been a heavy captain and quincunx squadron commander... subsequently promoted to division commander and eventually relegated to bivouac duty... Kikitik's division... that triple-size division with 10 superheavies is no suicide force.

Where can I read the materials of the structure of the armed forces Umiak?
The information available is in the forums, and the Insider (a part of the site).


Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:59 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Absalom wrote:
... and becomes more likely to fail the closer the decoy gets to it's target.

I have many times said that the appointment of decoy do not fly to the target.

Absalom wrote:
The Loroi apparently believe that if they wait for the torpedoes to enter medium-range before they start shooting at them, then the torpedoes will reach the Loroi ships before being destroyed.

Loroi here - the passive side. Activity - Umiak, they decide what the torpedo, when and why to start up.

Absalom wrote:
At any rate, the Insider says:

The above calculation was made. Umiak long-range torpedo hit the kinetic power equivalent to 30 megatons of TNT. No longer do not need anything.

Absalom wrote:
Note that "effective range" is not kinetic-kill range, but instead much larger.

You do not have enough 20 light seconds of powered flight umiak HXLR torpedo, you want even more?
:)

Absalom wrote:
Another factor in the Umiak use of torpedoes is that the Umiak don't use fighters. Umiak "blister" torpedoes seem to be allocated to this role, as the "Rockeye" uses a swarm of Kinetic-kill submunitions (bomber/assault fighter replacement) and the "Scatter Pack" uses a swarm of micro-short range submunitions (replacement for anti-smallcraft fighters).

In my current understanding, "Rockeye" + "Gimlet" is a two-stage AMM to intercept torpedoes groups, fighters and other small vessels.
"Scatter Pack" + "MicroSR" missile for strikes against ground area targets or interfering shell.

Absalom wrote:
The number of torpedoes that any particular ship carries will usually be low enough that it will not significantly reduce the performance of the ship carrying them. This is particularly true during the actual attack-runs, when many ships will deploy all of their torpedoes on the way towards their target. The ships that carry large numbers of torpedoes will tend to either be expected to launch all of them very early in the battle, or will be expected to survive for multiple attack-runs despite not launching all of their torpedoes at the first chance (which of these is the case will depend on the individual situation).

Except for the torpedoes, the ship should be held to the torpedo guidance system, control system, system diagnostics and maintenance, the launcher itself.
All these systems have the weight and size, cost and power consumption, the necessary supplies and services for the crew.

Absalom wrote:
Torpedo launchers will usually not be as expensive, heavy, etc., as an ordinary Umiak weapon. Some Umiak vessels don't even use launchers, but instead just strap the torpedoes to the outside of the ship, and "drop" them when they want the torpedoes to attack.

In Russian terminology, this type of launchers called "catapult launchers." Its drawbacks: large weight of the launcher, the missile greater weight. Its advantage small restrictions on the carrier maneuvers during starting.

Absalom wrote:
The reason to use long-range torpedoes in any given situation instead of just medium-range torpedoes is that long-range torpedoes can accelerate longer, and thus cover the distance faster. The exact usage of the different ranges and warheads of the torpedoes will depend on the tactical and strategic doctrine being followed.

Medium-range torpedo runs almost continuously accelerating to 800 Mm, ie twice the maximum range weapons Loroi.
If the task is to distract Loroi Umiak torpedoes during the convergence, the medium-range Umiak torpedo is about twice larger than necessary amount of fuel. A larger Umiak torpedoes are not needed.

Absalom wrote:
Are you trying to say that distance isn't important for electronic warfare weapons because their signals can travel much further than the combat happens over? If so, then you're wrong.

Of course, you can show the calculation of the required level of interference, showing your message across?

Absalom wrote:
Loroi strike-group warships are much faster than most Umiak ships.

Loroi strike-group warships much inferior protection Umiak ships. If Loroi make their ships more quickly, they begin to give way to protect the Umiak gunboats and die from a pair of "Gimlet"`s. Couples blisters just enough to destroy the whole "super-fast group."

Absalom wrote:
The information available is in the forums, and the Insider (a part of the site).

I would be very grateful for the links.

P.S. Thank you, joestej! Sit again consider the frequency of ships umiak. Another would be to know what is meant by the "cruiser", and they have umiak 5 types vary widely in size.


Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:37 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

jack wrote:
I have many times said that the appointment of decoy do not fly to the target.
Then the decoy can easily be ignored.

jack wrote:
Loroi here - the passive side.
The Loroi strike groups have superior acceleration and are in the position to choose when and where to engage the Umiak at their leisure. A medium torpedo might be able to accelerate across 800 Mm, but the battleground of any given solar system is going to be upwards of 9,000,000 Mm in any direction.

jack wrote:
You do not have enough 20 light seconds of powered flight umiak HXLR torpedo, you want even more?
Trying to score a direct hit with a Torpedo, even one with a high acceleration, may be difficult. The output of any ship's drive system is likely capable of frying anything that gets too close, and with the extreme momentum built up by torpedos in crossing the distance, they only have one chance to make contact before they coast past their target and would need to cancel out all their velocity and start over from square one in order to try again. All the Loroi would have to do is turn away from the incoming torpedoes and rake them with their exhaust.

jack wrote:
In Russian terminology, this type of launchers called "catapult launchers." Its drawbacks: large weight of the launcher, the missile greater weight.
Space is not like the atmosphere. Launchers are not required to fire a torpedo. There is no ground to fall down to before the "missile" accelerates enough to overcome gravity.

jack wrote:
Medium-range torpedo runs almost continuously accelerating to 800 Mm
Don't forget that the combatants can be traveling around at upwards of 30 megameters per second before combat even begins, and can accelerate in any direction after combat begins. A jousting pass might well be over before the torpedoes expend all their fuel.

jack wrote:
Couples blisters just enough to destroy the whole "super-fast group."
The Loroi strike groups have shown that they are capable of destroying hundreds of incoming torpedoes and gunboats even in less than ideal circumstances. Two torpedoes will not be a threat.


Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:04 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
... and becomes more likely to fail the closer the decoy gets to it's target.

I have many times said that the appointment of decoy do not fly to the target.
A decoy that the target can ignore isn't a decoy, it's just useless. If it isn't approaching the target, then it doesn't pose a threat to the target, so the target will attack something else instead. These might (maybe) be useful for drawing Loroi out of position, towards the decoys, if the real force is elsewhere, but otherwise won't be of value.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
The Loroi apparently believe that if they wait for the torpedoes to enter medium-range before they start shooting at them, then the torpedoes will reach the Loroi ships before being destroyed.

Loroi here - the passive side. Activity - Umiak, they decide what the torpedo, when and why to start up.
If the Umiak wait to fire torpedoes until they enter medium range, then the Loroi will be able to safely fire on their ships the entire time. Also, the Loroi have higher maneuverability, so they can just fly in a circle around the Umiak until the Umiak either die, or start sending out gunships & torpedoes. And if they only send out gunships, then the gunships will be destroyed much easier than if they had sent out the torpedoes. Also, if a ship still has torpedoes when it's destroyed, then the explosion destroys those torpedoes as well.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Note that "effective range" is not kinetic-kill range, but instead much larger.

You do not have enough 20 light seconds of powered flight umiak HXLR torpedo, you want even more?
:)
Correct, you want more. Specifically, you want enough that the torpedo destroys or damages the Umiak ship even if it doesn't physically hit the targeted ship, because that makes it easier to hit the targeted ship.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Another factor in the Umiak use of torpedoes is that the Umiak don't use fighters. Umiak "blister" torpedoes seem to be allocated to this role, as the "Rockeye" uses a swarm of Kinetic-kill submunitions (bomber/assault fighter replacement) and the "Scatter Pack" uses a swarm of micro-short range submunitions (replacement for anti-smallcraft fighters).

In my current understanding, "Rockeye" + "Gimlet" is a two-stage AMM to intercept torpedoes groups, fighters and other small vessels.
"Scatter Pack" + "MicroSR" missile for strikes against ground area targets or interfering shell.
The "Rockeye" is listed as carrying kinetic-kill warheads, while the "Scatter Pack" is listed as carrying smaller torpedoes. Either could presumably be used in any of a number of roles, but my assessment is that the "Rockeye" is better reserved for slower targets.

Also, fighters are used as a two-stage AMM to intercept torpedoes and gunships.

And the Umiak won't need a special weapon to use against planets, since planets can't maneuver in Outsider.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
The number of torpedoes that any particular ship carries will usually be low enough that it will not significantly reduce the performance of the ship carrying them. This is particularly true during the actual attack-runs, when many ships will deploy all of their torpedoes on the way towards their target. The ships that carry large numbers of torpedoes will tend to either be expected to launch all of them very early in the battle, or will be expected to survive for multiple attack-runs despite not launching all of their torpedoes at the first chance (which of these is the case will depend on the individual situation).

Except for the torpedoes, the ship should be held to the torpedo guidance system, control system, system diagnostics and maintenance, the launcher itself.
All these systems have the weight and size, cost and power consumption, the necessary supplies and services for the crew.
Torpedo guidance will be data transceivers, so low-mass. The control system will be a computer program, so that comes for free. System diagnostics will be data transceivers + software, so free. Maintenance will be tools, so that will cost a little, but it'll likely be a minor cost compared to the actual torpedoes, so effectively free if you're bothering with torpedoes in the first case. The launcher is the one cost of interest since it can service a widely varying number of torpedoes. However, most of the torpedo's acceleration is always going to come from the torpedo, so the launcher will never need to be too expensive: you're looking at less than 1 torpedo mass per launcher, because the only thing that the launcher needs to do is hold the torpedo, and throw it far enough from the ship for the torpedo's drive to safely start. The launcher is going to be much lighter than an actual gun, since those are fairly large.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Torpedo launchers will usually not be as expensive, heavy, etc., as an ordinary Umiak weapon. Some Umiak vessels don't even use launchers, but instead just strap the torpedoes to the outside of the ship, and "drop" them when they want the torpedoes to attack.

In Russian terminology, this type of launchers called "catapult launchers." Its drawbacks: large weight of the launcher, the missile greater weight. Its advantage small restrictions on the carrier maneuvers during starting.
The "catapult launchers" you're referring to throw an object, correct? Google translate suggests the Russian(/) word люк (trapdoor) or phrase торпеда капельницы (torpedo dropper, which is an odd mental image to me) for the type of launcher that just "drops" the torpedo. They might include a large spring, but calling them "launchers" isn't particularly informative.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
The reason to use long-range torpedoes in any given situation instead of just medium-range torpedoes is that long-range torpedoes can accelerate longer, and thus cover the distance faster. The exact usage of the different ranges and warheads of the torpedoes will depend on the tactical and strategic doctrine being followed.

Medium-range torpedo runs almost continuously accelerating to 800 Mm, ie twice the maximum range weapons Loroi.
If the task is to distract Loroi Umiak torpedoes during the convergence, the medium-range Umiak torpedo is about twice larger than necessary amount of fuel. A larger Umiak torpedoes are not needed.
The physical range of the torpedo isn't important: it can keep travelling almost infinitely since it's in space. The important thing is how long it takes to cover Loroi weapons range (it's speed) and how much it can maneuver in that time (which depends on it's remaining fuel). A torpedo with a longer range but the same acceleration can cross Loroi weapons range much faster, which makes it more dangerous: the Loroi need to destroy these sooner than the others.

Also, torpedoes will maneuver more as they get closer to the Loroi, but when they're 1 light-second away they'll barely need to maneuver at all, since just a little thrust in a semi-random direction will make it almost impossible for the Loroi to hit them at that distance.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Are you trying to say that distance isn't important for electronic warfare weapons because their signals can travel much further than the combat happens over? If so, then you're wrong.

Of course, you can show the calculation of the required level of interference, showing your message across?
Not without system specs, but I can give the formula:

Jamming strength required = Distance to target * Distance to target * Jamming strength required when distance to target is 1.

Simple square law, relevant everywhere that a wavefront can expand, such as in empty space. When using focused systems you also have targeting accuracy to worry about: at 1 light second, most Loroi ships can move a full ship length in the time that it takes your radar ping to make a round-trip between your ship and theirs. At two light seconds they can travel 2 ship-lengths, etc.

Another complication is the frequency distribution that you need to deal with. If they can actively ping your thrust plu me to determine it's characteristics, then you need to emit sufficient jamming over the entirety of the spectrum that they can do this over, because otherwise they'll use frequency-scatter techniques to evade your jamming. This in turn means that instead of reaching the jamming strength on a single frequency, you need to hit it on:

Frequency bandwidth / Frequency window

numbers of frequencies. When this just calls for a handful of frequencies it's doable, but when you approach millions of frequencies it becomes almost impossible, even if just due to inevitable inefficiencies in your equipment causing it to emit more heat than your ship's systems can compensate for.

Also, if the thrust plume isn't almost entirely hidden by your ship, then they can focus their sensors enough that your ship isn't even visible, leaving your jamming utterly ineffective.

Jack wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Loroi strike-group warships are much faster than most Umiak ships.

Loroi strike-group warships much inferior protection Umiak ships. If Loroi make their ships more quickly, they begin to give way to protect the Umiak gunboats and die from a pair of "Gimlet"`s. Couples blisters just enough to destroy the whole "super-fast group."
Which is why they'd focus on anti-torpedo defenses: gunboats can already barely keep up with the fastest of the Loroi ships that aren't designed to achieve maximum speed. If the Loroi were able to focus on speed alone then the only thing that could catch them would be missiles, so they'd focus their defenses on those, and achieve much better results than they currently do. The current Umiak tendency towards deploying diverse attack groups makes such specialization impossible for the Loroi, because even if they can destroy one or two Umiak ships this way (or even the entirety of the gunboats), they can't do very much to the heavier Umiak ships which mix defense and offense together.

joestej wrote:
Arioch wrote:
They were called the Eaters of Wisdom for a while. The "Historians" was a name for a different race in a different story. I eventually decided that each name was more appropriate for the other race and so I switched them.


Interesting! Did that other story ever get published anywhere?
Agreed. Also, has that book project gotten published yet?


Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:41 pm
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Post Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures
icekatze wrote:
hi hi
Then the decoy can easily be ignored.

Ignore the enemy decoy, mimics a ship, then do not shoot at enemy ships.

icekatze wrote:
The Loroi strike groups have superior acceleration and are in the position to choose when and where to engage the Umiak at their leisure. A medium torpedo might be able to accelerate across 800 Mm, but the battleground of any given solar system is going to be upwards of 9,000,000 Mm in any direction.

Strike groups are in enemy territory. The more time they spend on maneuvering to position superiority is achieved, the higher the risk reinforcements umiak.
The further strike group departs from the star, the more difficult it will be to perform interstellar jump.

icekatze wrote:
Trying to score a direct hit with a Torpedo, even one with a high acceleration, may be difficult. The output of any ship's drive system is likely capable of frying anything that gets too close, and with the extreme momentum built up by torpedos in crossing the distance, they only have one chance to make contact before they coast past their target and would need to cancel out all their velocity and start over from square one in order to try again. All the Loroi would have to do is turn away from the incoming torpedoes and rake them with their exhaust.

Spread torpedoes at a miss impossible. Torpedo gaining the highest possible speed for the passage of the zone of fire defense purpose, only a limited rate margin to parry target maneuver.
At speeds that develop long-range torpedoes, even the torch annihilation rocket motor becomes the object of a small and leakage.
Yes, the torpedo can be turned into a plasma torch the motor. Here are just at the speed of the order of 1% of the speed of light for the purpose there is no difference, it would hit 80 tons torpedo or 80 tons plasma.
The radius of destruction explosion in space is small. And it is quite comparable to the size of the ships in the comics. So a direct hit to the torpedo in the world of comics rational.

icekatze wrote:
jack wrote:
In Russian terminology, this type of launchers called "catapult launchers." Its drawbacks: large weight of the launcher, the missile greater weight.
Space is not like the atmosphere. Launchers are not required to fire a torpedo. There is no ground to fall down to before the "missile" accelerates enough to overcome gravity.

Acceleration ship 20-25 g, the length of the ship 200-400 meters. After 1-2 seconds after the reset torpedo in the ship's engine plume.
And here the difference between the torpedo and the equivalent weight of the plasma becomes important.
So the torpedoes about 1 second to the fact that the move away from the ship and include its own engine. Engine power torpedo FMR - 1800 tonnes of thrust. For a safe distance behind it include?
So when you start is not "reset", but powerful impetus from which a torpedo weighing tens of tons will acquire the speed of about 100 m/s.

icekatze wrote:
Don't forget that the combatants can be traveling around at upwards of 30 megameters per second before combat even begins, and can accelerate in any direction after combat begins. A jousting pass might well be over before the torpedoes expend all their fuel.

If you want, I can do the calculation, how many times will need more fuel to refuel fighter than torpedoes. Estimated to be 50 to 1.
The main problem of fighters - a small range of view. Today, to solve mankind makes special AEW. But in comics such vehicles do not.
Therefore, the application range of the fighters will be limited detection range of sensors mothership or spotter-ship.

icekatze wrote:
The Loroi strike groups have shown that they are capable of destroying hundreds of incoming torpedoes and gunboats even in less than ideal circumstances. Two torpedoes will not be a threat.

In the battle umiak lost "a dozen" of ships. Of these two ships this strike cruiser and command cruiser. Max lost no more than 8 gunboats.
The range, which launched torpedoes, too few, and they were unable to gain maximum speed. It seems, for this situation, there is an English saying "The hunt for the turkey."
Reasons for 6 heavy umiak ships and about 100 medium and light ships that were not destroyed, not destroyed FAG51 in comics are not specified.
Even gunboat came out firing in the distance, capable of destroying any ship from Loroi FAG51 with sufficient time. And if such a dozen gunboats - time is reduced to one or two volleys.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:39 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
You ask a lot of repetitive questions in the thread. I will answer only to the original.
Absalom wrote:
If the Umiak wait to fire torpedoes until they enter medium range, then the Loroi will be able to safely fire on their ships the entire time.

medium-range torpedoes fly twice as far as the best long-range guns shoot Loroi.

Absalom wrote:
The "Rockeye" is listed as carrying kinetic-kill warheads, while the "Scatter Pack" is listed as carrying smaller torpedoes. Either could presumably be used in any of a number of roles, but my assessment is that the "Rockeye" is better reserved for slower targets.
Also, fighters are used as a two-stage AMM to intercept torpedoes and gunships.

"Gimlet" has accelerated several times higher than that of any fighter and torpedo the need for interception. Acceleration MicroSR too little to capture the fighters and torpedoes.

Absalom wrote:
And the Umiak won't need a special weapon to use against planets, since planets can't maneuver in Outsider.

Lori such weapons, AMM-D is. Why special weapons against ground targets do not have to be umiak?

Absalom wrote:
Torpedo guidance will be data transceivers, so low-mass. The control system will be a computer program, so that comes for free. System diagnostics will be data transceivers + software, so free. Maintenance will be tools, so that will cost a little, but it'll likely be a minor cost compared to the actual torpedoes, so effectively free if you're bothering with torpedoes in the first case. The launcher is the one cost of interest since it can service a widely varying number of torpedoes. However, most of the torpedo's acceleration is always going to come from the torpedo, so the launcher will never need to be too expensive: you're looking at less than 1 torpedo mass per launcher, because the only thing that the launcher needs to do is hold the torpedo, and throw it far enough from the ship for the torpedo's drive to safely start. The launcher is going to be much lighter than an actual gun, since those are fairly large.

The transmitter is capable of transferring data to 20 light seconds after the engine exhaust annihilation under enemy electronic warfare - a heavy, large, complex and expensive.
A computer program requires a computer.
Diagnostic system requires various sensors of the torpedo, launcher and the rest of the complex channels of communication from them, the equipment receives data from the sensors, and a computer program with which they are treated.
Today, a single physical computer is not required - but the need for a system of processing power on board the ship is not free.
The complex is on the board of a headache, all of which go as they can. But the concept of service solely on their own, which in relation to the author insists umiak makes integrating the carapace hemorrhoids. :)
About launcher I wrote above in detail. Aircraft catapult launcher type now weighs about the same as launching missiles.

Absalom wrote:
The "catapult launchers" you're referring to throw an object, correct? Google translate suggests the Russian(/) word люк (trapdoor) or phrase торпеда капельницы (torpedo dropper, which is an odd mental image to me) for the type of launcher that just "drops" the torpedo. They might include a large spring, but calling them "launchers" isn't particularly informative.

Thank you for the visual demonstration of what gibberish gives Google translator. :)
Devices of this type are called Russian term "starting device". And practically used except papers.
Too dangerous to use these devices in action.

Absalom wrote:
The physical range of the torpedo isn't important: it can keep travelling almost infinitely since it's in space. The important thing is how long it takes to cover Loroi weapons range (it's speed) and how much it can maneuver in that time (which depends on it's remaining fuel). A torpedo with a longer range but the same acceleration can cross Loroi weapons range much faster, which makes it more dangerous: the Loroi need to destroy these sooner than the others.
Also, torpedoes will maneuver more as they get closer to the Loroi, but when they're 1 light-second away they'll barely need to maneuver at all, since just a little thrust in a semi-random direction will make it almost impossible for the Loroi to hit them at that distance.


To set the speed of the torpedo need distance. Or distance is such that by the time of arrival of the ship in the zone of fire weapons Loroi, torpedoes, or will be destroyed for a long time, or will be destroyed for a long time ships Loroi. Described in the comic mechanics "distraction to torpedo" will not operate.
At a distance of fire weapons Loroi torpedo fuel tank is almost irrelevant, even short-range torpedoes able to cover the distance is continuously accelerating. It is important only to develop a torpedo acceleration.
So for distraction Loroi when approaching naval torpedoes harder medium-range are not needed.
What weapon in the comic is able to shoot the torpedoes at a distance of light-seconds?


Absalom wrote:
Not without system specs, but I can give the formula:
Jamming strength required = Distance to target * Distance to target * Jamming strength required when distance to target is 1.

In Russian it is called "stupid infinity": the formula for Jamming strength required when distance to target is 1 please.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 2:51 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Hi, Jack. Now, I imagine you have already found the Insider, as you've been quoting ship and torpedo specs from it, but there's the link anyway. Tons of information on the Loroi and Umiak. From how they think, to how they evolved, to how they fight and a brief history of the war. And, if you get a chance, read through the Q-and-A threads; all of us have been discussing this stuff for years with Arioch. Many, many details are available, man. We're not really telling you anything new.

Jack wrote:
Ignore the enemy decoy, mimics a ship, then do not shoot at enemy ships.

But, you initially said that the decoys don't fly towards the target. If they're not flying towards the target, then the target can ignore them and focus on the things that are flying towards them. I would also assume that the target ships would notice enemy fleet elements moving in unusual patterns (away from them entirely, off-angle to the enemy's main vector), so the decoys would be monitored so long as they were in range.

Jack wrote:
Strike groups are in enemy territory. The more time they spend on maneuvering to position superiority is achieved, the higher the risk reinforcements umiak.
The further strike group departs from the star, the more difficult it will be to perform interstellar jump.

Where the action of the first chapter of the comic took place is The Steppes, which is a contested dead zone between Loroi and Umiak space. It used to be part of Loroi space until the Umiak took most of it. In the ensuing fighting, the Loroi burned many of the systems in the region as they failed to completely drive the Umiak out, and so decided to deny them resources and territory. The concern about reinforcements exists for both sides as the region is contested; both combatants have the same ability to maneuver through it.

jack wrote:
Spread torpedoes at a miss impossible. Torpedo gaining the highest possible speed for the passage of the zone of fire defense purpose, only a limited rate margin to parry target maneuver.
At speeds that develop long-range torpedoes, even the torch annihilation rocket motor becomes the object of a small and leakage.
Yes, the torpedo can be turned into a plasma torch the motor. Here are just at the speed of the order of 1% of the speed of light for the purpose there is no difference, it would hit 80 tons torpedo or 80 tons plasma.
The radius of destruction explosion in space is small. And it is quite comparable to the size of the ships in the comics. So a direct hit to the torpedo in the world of comics rational.

A miss is completely possible. Space is big and warships quite maneuverable. The warships are able to effectively track everything in the combat zone and will have ample time to begin random walks (randomly and repeatedly change vectors) and to engage with point defense. Please refer to pages 76 through 83 to see an actual example. The Loroi don't emerge unscathed, but the point I've been trying to make is clearly shown.

While point defense wouldn't negate the momentum of the plasma resulting from a vaporized torpedo, it would bring into play defensive screens. Such screens are useful against charge-carrying beams, that is, both the Loroi's and Umiak's primary plasma-based weaponry. The ships of both sides would weather a hit from a vaporized torpedo far better than if it were still a solid mass.

jack wrote:
Acceleration ship 20-25 g, the length of the ship 200-400 meters. After 1-2 seconds after the reset torpedo in the ship's engine plume.
And here the difference between the torpedo and the equivalent weight of the plasma becomes important.
So the torpedoes about 1 second to the fact that the move away from the ship and include its own engine. Engine power torpedo FMR - 1800 tonnes of thrust. For a safe distance behind it include?
So when you start is not "reset", but powerful impetus from which a torpedo weighing tens of tons will acquire the speed of about 100 m/s.

Please see page 75 to see an example of an Umiak torpedo launch. At no point are the torpedoes in the drive plumes of the launching ships. And, actually, when a torpedo is launched it will have the same velocity as the ship that launched it at the instant of its launch, so it could have an initial velocity much greater than 100 m/s. Assuming the ship is under acceleration at the time, the torpedo will fall behind towards the drive plume, yes, but the launchers are designed to kick the torpedo away from the ship and Newton's laws will keep it well away from the plume.

jack wrote:
If you want, I can do the calculation, how many times will need more fuel to refuel fighter than torpedoes. Estimated to be 50 to 1.
The main problem of fighters - a small range of view. Today, to solve mankind makes special AEW. But in comics such vehicles do not.
Therefore, the application range of the fighters will be limited detection range of sensors mothership or spotter-ship.

Honestly, neither side makes heavy use of fighters. They can be swatted out of space as easily as a torpedo, though they do provide expanded point defense coverage (for the Loroi) or decoys/extra tactical flexibility (for the Umiak). For both sides, the main means of force projection are warships.

We have no reason to believe that either combatant doesn't have an equivalent of AEW. You probably won't see them in space, though, because unlike on a planet, there's no horizon in space. Unlike a seafaring vessel or land-based radar, a spaceship has nothing to "see over" which is what an AEW is meant to do. Neither fighters nor gunboats wander far from their fleets as they're too vulnerable, so they get the benefits of being in their forces' shared sensor bubble.

jack wrote:
In the battle umiak lost "a dozen" of ships. Of these two ships this strike cruiser and command cruiser. Max lost no more than 8 gunboats.
The range, which launched torpedoes, too few, and they were unable to gain maximum speed. It seems, for this situation, there is an English saying "The hunt for the turkey."
Reasons for 6 heavy umiak ships and about 100 medium and light ships that were not destroyed, not destroyed FAG51 in comics are not specified.
Even gunboat came out firing in the distance, capable of destroying any ship from Loroi FAG51 with sufficient time. And if such a dozen gunboats - time is reduced to one or two volleys.


By "The hunt for the turkey" do you mean "turkey shoot?" That's an English idiom generally meaning that a person has an overwhelming advantage over another in a situation. If that's the case, then what happened in the comic was the exact opposite of a turkey shoot. The Umiak have a numerical advantage, but the Loroi have a maneuver advantage and a range advantage.

No Umiak ship can go up against a Loroi ship and "come out firing in the distance" as Loroi weaponry has a much longer effective range. As icekatze pointed out, and the comic pages I linked show, the Loroi play their advantages extremely well. Right there on the pages of the comic, you can see that a small strike group was able to handle hundreds of torpedoes and a dozen-plus ships with only two losses on their side. Now, if the Umiak had thrown everything they had in the system at the Loroi, then you'd have a turkey shoot.

And I know you must mean SG-51, not FAG51. I'm not even sure where you got the second one from.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Hi, Mr. Bojangles!
I hope I would still be able to say something new.
:oops:
Noticed a difference in thinking.
For me, challenge, the function is more important than the result. Decoy flying near the ship, not the target. The fact that the ship is flying to the enemy, and decoy with it - for me it does not matter.
On the other hand, you see, the enemy will fire on our ships, regardless of where they travel.

Quote:
No Umiak ship can go up against a Loroi ship and "come out firing in the distance" as Loroi weaponry has a much longer effective range.


Torpedoes for me is the same shipboard weapons like guns. Since the torpedo umiak most ranged weapons in the comic - umiak ships may fire at ships Loroi out of their range of fire.

Quote:
And I know you must mean SG-51, not FAG51.

The Russian strike group / airplane / boat / ship used for the main attack, the attack of the main forces of the enemy. Therefore SG51 translation into Russian was the cause of the dispute, since the purpose of the group, as described, is quite another. In the course of this dispute surfaced term FAG, which is well suited for the described tactics.

Now the answer to the point.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:11 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr Bojangles wrote:
...do you mean "turkey shoot?" If that's the case, then what happened in the comic was the exact opposite of a turkey shoot. The Umiak have a numerical advantage, but the Loroi have a maneuver advantage and a range advantage.

Hence, the idiom does not fit. As will be shown below, torpedoes umiak launched as it was shown to be able to gain maximum speed at the time of passing the fire zone defense, and therefore are "easy targets".
In assessing the situation in the battle of the premises provided by Arioch: the battle - half an hour, affected "Tolot" -s ships were destroyed by the attack in pursuit.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
A miss is completely possible. Space is big and warships quite maneuverable. The warships are able to effectively track everything in the combat zone and will have ample time to begin random walks (randomly and repeatedly change vectors) and to engage with point defense.

When used properly serviceable torpedoes and with no interference miss excluded.
Launch range determined by the supply of fuel and torpedoes maneuverability goal. Maneuverability torpedoes, as a rule, twice as much agility objectives - and therefore will not be able to leave the goal.
About sensory scanning, we'll talk more later.
Special evasive maneuvers, use the known disadvantages of a particular type of torpedo possible. But you need to know the disadvantages of this type of torpedo.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
While point defense wouldn't negate the momentum of the plasma resulting from a vaporized torpedo, it would bring into play defensive screens. Such screens are useful against charge-carrying beams, that is, both the Loroi's and Umiak's primary plasma-based weaponry. The ships of both sides would weather a hit from a vaporized torpedo far better than if it were still a solid mass.

We had a power of tens of megatons of TNT. For ships comics in most cases will suffice First percent of this capacity for destruction. So save time on the exact calculation of the damage brought by ship, it was 100500% or 1005% just do not think it necessary.
In general, the torpedo hit the ship the same destruction.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
Please see page 75 to see an example of an Umiak torpedo launch. At no point are the torpedoes in the drive plumes of the launching ships.

1 frame - command cruiser and allegedly strike cruiser launching a torpedo, presumably - HXLR. These torpedo can see on page 79-80, the second frame. During the battle, these torpedoes can score maximum one-third of its maximum speed.
2 frame - launch HLR torpedoes, presumably on board the light cruiser. During the battle, these torpedoes could develop a maximum half of its maximum speed.
3 frame - missile cruiser launches XHSR torpedoes.
4 frame - AMM Gimlet (?!! The distance between the beginning of the battle fleets of about 150 Mm).
5 frame - blisters "Rockeye", presumably to strike cruiser, FMR torpedo, presumably missile destroyer. And it is not certain, too small, the third type of torpedo.
Launching torpedoes are not at optimum distances much easier to intercept them.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
We have no reason to believe that either combatant doesn't have an equivalent of AEW. You probably won't see them in space, though, because unlike on a planet, there's no horizon in space. Unlike a seafaring vessel or land-based radar, a spaceship has nothing to "see over" which is what an AEW is meant to do. Neither fighters nor gunboats wander far from their fleets as they're too vulnerable, so they get the benefits of being in their forces' shared sensor bubble.

Now on to the sensors.
AEW:
Image
There is something similar for the fighter in the world of comics?
On the detection range of the sensors. Radar kind AN/SPY-1 examines the hemisphere at a range of 1000 km, that is 1 Mm, in 2 minutes, and spends this 100 MW power requirements. By increasing the number of viewing range growing energy needs in a square, and in fact even more - due to the absorption of radio waves substance, which is even in space. If we want to examine the scope of a radius of about 20 light-seconds to 6000 Mm, we need about terawatts of electric power. It is close to the total electrical capacity of all power of humanity today. And approximately equal to the power sub-light engines of heavy vehicles in the world of comics.
That is, the ship carrying the sensor with a detection range in the world of comics available. But the reactor to power the sensor in the ship should be the size of the engine battleship. Both the sensor must have an impressive size.
I suppose that the Type-Z Specialty Destroyer and it looks like - a huge flying-seeing eye.
But for every ship, even every superheavy ship to put such a sensor is unlikely to succeed.
And the range survey normal ships, even in a clean space, probably less than 10 light-seconds.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:15 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
hi hi

Space is not the air. Spacecraft are not aircraft. Space is not a sea. Spacecraft are not seacraft.

Spacecraft can accelerate in any direction, regardless of what their velocity is, and when they change their thrust vector, they can only increase their velocity by their base acceleration, with no regard for their initial velocity outside of relativistic effects.

A fleet of Loroi raiders can charge an Umiak fleet at a conservative speed of 3 megameters per second. Since they have better acceleration, they can choose the distance they pass the Umiak fleet. At 240 megameters, they can pass the Umiak fleet and fire their pulse cannons. They pass by the Umiak fleet in 160 seconds. It takes an Umiak torpedo 900 seconds to cross the distance. The torpedoes never reach their target.

A basic camera and a 2 meter lens, is capable of detecting the space shuttle's main engine at 20,000,000 megameters. Space is basically the hardest possible environment to hide in.

Torpedoes may have infinite range, but they have abysmally poor speed compared to beam weapons. The Umiak have to work very hard to get the Loroi into a disadvantageous position.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:00 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
icekatze wrote:
hi hi
Space is not the air. Spacecraft are not aircraft. Space is not a sea. Spacecraft are not seacraft.

Physics - one for all.

icekatze wrote:
A fleet of Loroi raiders can charge an Umiak fleet at a conservative speed of 3 megameters per second. Since they have better acceleration, they can choose the distance they pass the Umiak fleet. At 240 megameters, they can pass the Umiak fleet and fire their pulse cannons. They pass by the Umiak fleet in 160 seconds. It takes an Umiak torpedo 900 seconds to cross the distance. The torpedoes never reach their target.

Umiak waiting fleet approach Loroi ~2,000 Mm and launch torpedoes to meet them. Evade torpedoes ships Loroi in these conditions can not physically.

icekatze wrote:
A basic camera and a 2 meter lens, is capable of detecting the space shuttle's main engine at 20,000,000 megameters. Space is basically the hardest possible environment to hide in.

The rate of this camera review - 0.0167 square degrees per minute. Area scope - 41252.96 square degrees. Time viewing spheres - 2470237 seconds, or 41170 minutes, or 686 hours, or 29 days.
Because the camera collects the signal to detect fast-moving objects, it is not capable.

icekatze wrote:
Torpedoes may have infinite range, but they have abysmally poor speed compared to beam weapons. The Umiak have to work very hard to get the Loroi into a disadvantageous position.

You can say anything. You show the calculation.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:56 am
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Post Re: Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures
hi hi

jack wrote:
Physics - one for all.
And if there was air and water in space at terrestrial densities, that could be relevant.

jack wrote:
Umiak waiting fleet approach Loroi ~2,000 Mm and launch torpedoes to meet them.
If the Umiak launch torpedoes at 2,000 megameters, the Loroi still pass by the Umiak position in 671 seconds, while the Umiak torpedoes are still 229 seconds away from their targets.

jack wrote:
The rate of this camera review - 0.0167 square degrees per minute.
That is the rate of view when it is tracking with the rotation of the Earth for extremely faint objects that are light years away. As you double the number of photons reaching the collector, you half the amount of time it needs to spend observing it's field of view. For something of the space shuttle's brightness, 1 camera could scan the whole sky in less than an hour. And a camera that is focusing on an enemy fleet doesn't need to scan the whole sky. (Not to mention the fact that the Loroi and the Umiak have much higher tech levels than we do today.)

jack wrote:
You can say anything. You show the calculation.
I'm seeing a lot of "saying anything" in this discussion.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:40 am
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Post Re: Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures
icekatze wrote:
hi hi
And if there was air and water in space at terrestrial densities, that could be relevant.

Specific examples, please.

icekatze wrote:
If the Umiak launch torpedoes at 2,000 megameters, the Loroi still pass by the Umiak position in 671 seconds, while the Umiak torpedoes are still 229 seconds away from their targets.

I am now lazily solve the problem of optimal time to start torpedoes. I have enough to show that Loroi can not escape umiak torpedoes.
If you wish, we can tomorrow to draw and count based on Loroi ships and Umiak torpedoes.

icekatze wrote:
That is the rate of view when it is tracking with the rotation of the Earth for extremely faint objects that are light years away. As you double the number of photons reaching the collector, you half the amount of time it needs to spend observing it's field of view. For something of the space shuttle's brightness, 1 camera could scan the whole sky in less than an hour. And a camera that is focusing on an enemy fleet doesn't need to scan the whole sky. (Not to mention the fact that the Loroi and the Umiak have much higher tech levels than we do today.)

The normal response - tomorrow. So far I can only say that this system is working with the accumulation of the signal, so the detection of objects with significant radial velocity is not suitable in principle.
Tomorrow, you need to count on a predetermined range will detect the source of the system while reducing the time of the review in 1000, as you wish.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures
jack wrote:
...stuff...


I'm not even going to bother replying to your specific points, since it just doesn't seem to go anywhere. You seem to be stuck on torpedoes being the end-all weapon of Outsider. You have been presented with many arguments, via this thread, the Insider and the comic itself as to why that is not the case. If anyone is being repetitive, it's you.

No one here has argued with you that torpedoes aren't a viable weapon. Nor has anyone said that they can't do immense damage once they hit a target. What has been said is that compared to beam weaponry they aren't very effective weapons. The Umiak have to use them in massive numbers just to score a few kills against the Loroi, due to Loroi point defense and maneuverability. A torpedo's efficiency as a weapon is low. This was blatantly shown in the comic in the pages I told you to read; this is a fact of this story.

Your arguments all seem to ignore what has been built into the Outsider universe. I've told you before, and I'll say it one last time, none of the people that have responded to you have told you anything new. It's all based on what Arioch has given us and physics. Here's one last link for you: Atomic Rockets. You want deep details about how things actually work in space? Read that site. It gets referenced frequently around here.

And, with that, I'm done. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, Jack, and I hope you continue to the enjoy the comic. See you around, man.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:14 pm
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Post Re: Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures
Mr Bojangles is right, you're either ignoring things or failing to understand them in the first place.

A quick note, though: Gimlets have a very short range (measured in seconds instead of minutes) and AMM-D missiles are an Anti-Missile Missile (hence AMM).

The rest of my reply I've already deleted. It was probably too long anyways.


Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:37 pm
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