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Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers 
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Post Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
What it says on the tin. What are our ideas on how our favorie bug race is able to suddenly conceal their presence from the space elves?

Have fun.

As for mine:

1. A fluke Mutation that the Umiak were able to exploit. There isn't anything to say some minor variations or oopses can't happen in the reproductive cycle of the Umiak, and instead of fixing this one it may have been cultivated.

2. After carful study and disection on every level of either captured Loroi (living or dead) they have managed to found the particular wave length these Farseers use and as such can block it. However it is experimental so there is no telling how long it can last or if there are other side effects.

3. The Umiak found another race with simalar abilities and are using them as we would a firewall on our computer.

What are your thoughts on these and your own pet theories, no matter how plausible or bizarre.


Tue May 17, 2016 10:17 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Although Arioch seems to be toeing the line that the only human the Umiak or Loroi have encountered is Alex, like him (and Tempo) I find the coincidence absurd. There has to be something involving humanity in this, but I'll be damned if Arioch hasn't made that part, at least, fairly opaque.

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Tue May 17, 2016 12:05 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
hi hi

In my own estimation, the easiest way for the Umiak to develop a counter to Loroi telepathy would be in studying the Loroi captives they have. This doesn't even necessarily require them to do horrible experiments and vivisection, although if I recall correctly, Arioch has said that horrific experiments almost certainly did take place. At the very basic level though, all they really need to do is have some Loroi in captivity with some sensors affixed to their skulls, and record their reactions to various living things passing by their holding areas. In this case, the Umiak don't even necessarily need an intuitive understanding of why some experiments trigger less of a response than others, just which ones work.

Uploading their consciousness into computers, not too dissimilar to the Historian constructs is another possibility, but I think that idea has been denied by Arioch. Or at least, the idea of robots piloting the ships has been denied.

I really don't see how the Umiak or the Loroi could have ever encountered a human besides Alex and the crew of the Bellarmine in the timeframe that would allow the Umiak to exploit it in the battles at Naam which the Bellarmine witnessed part of. I suppose it is possible that the Umiak may have encountered another of the Terran scout ships prior to that moment, but even then, there seems to be little chance that the Umiak would understand the humans' telepathic resistance. If the Umiak had in some way contacted or discovered humans prior to the scout mission, then nothing about the scout mission makes any real sense. The coincidence may be absurd, but the alternatives seem even more absurd.

I suppose technically, humans could actually be an artifice of the Umiak, and all of Alex's memories of Earth are manufactured to make him believe he isn't an Umiak spy, but that would just be silly.


Tue May 17, 2016 1:42 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
icekatze wrote:
hi hi



I really don't see how the Umiak or the Loroi could have ever encountered a human besides Alex and the crew of the Bellarmine in the timeframe that would allow the Umiak to exploit it in the battles at Naam which the Bellarmine witnessed part of. I suppose it is possible that the Umiak may have encountered another of the Terran scout ships prior to that moment, but even then, there seems to be little chance that the Umiak would understand the humans' telepathic resistance. If the Umiak had in some way contacted or discovered humans prior to the scout mission, then nothing about the scout mission makes any real sense. The coincidence may be absurd, but the alternatives seem even more absurd.

I suppose technically, humans could actually be an artifice of the Umiak, and all of Alex's memories of Earth are manufactured to make him believe he isn't an Umiak spy, but that would just be silly.


Humans could have been another race experimented on, like the Loroi, but somehow stopped being experimented on (possibly disappearing the same time the other forerunner race that created the Loroi did) and were left on their own to evolve. This might explain the similarities.


Tue May 17, 2016 2:15 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
hi hi

Given the similarity between Loroi and Human, it is almost certain that humans were experimented on in some fashion during the Soia era. But that doesn't really say anything about the Umiak and their present situation, as the Umiak didn't even exist until at least a millennia after the end of the Soia era.


Tue May 17, 2016 2:44 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Image

??


Tue May 17, 2016 5:32 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
I tend to think the Umiak found some sort of ancient Soian device that might be able to shield them from the farseers. The devices the Loroi used are the only known technology that interfaces with telepathy, so it would make sense that if you have amplifiers, you also have cancellers. How humanity figures into all of this, if it even does, is anyones' guess. The only other option would be if the bugs have developed telepaths of their own, whether Loroi or some other. Then humans, with their cloaky mannerisms, may prove usefull yet :)


Tue May 17, 2016 6:10 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
icekatze wrote:
I really don't see how the Umiak or the Loroi could have ever encountered a human besides Alex and the crew of the Bellarmine in the timeframe that would allow the Umiak to exploit it in the battles at Naam which the Bellarmine witnessed part of. I suppose it is possible that the Umiak may have encountered another of the Terran scout ships prior to that moment, but even then, there seems to be little chance that the Umiak would understand the humans' telepathic resistance. If the Umiak had in some way contacted or discovered humans prior to the scout mission, then nothing about the scout mission makes any real sense. The coincidence may be absurd, but the alternatives seem even more absurd.


If Bellarmine's scout ship miss-jump did successfully re-enter normal space (Which is very long odds but possibly less than it all being coincidence) than there's a reasonable chance it bounced into Umiak Space and a smaller one it turned up in a conflicted zone the Umiak managed to kill all the Loroi after they noticed they couldn't sense the crew but before they could get as message out.

Unlikely but about the only way it could happen.


Tue May 17, 2016 6:23 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
icekatze wrote:
I suppose technically, humans could actually be an artifice of the Umiak, and all of Alex's memories of Earth are manufactured to make him believe he isn't an Umiak spy, but that would just be silly.

Ah man, that would be so creepy! Earth and Humanity never existed, it's all just a fantasy invented by the Umiak to mess with the Loroi. Very Phillip K. Dick. But I think the story would need a darker, grittier tone to make that kind of twist work thematically.

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Tue May 17, 2016 6:57 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
I've been wondering about that topic for awhile. We can modify memories with the crappy tech we currently have. I can only imagine how much easier it would be to modify minds at these god-like tech levels.

It might be that McDonald's is merely an Umiak trap designed to tempt the Loroi into going to Terran territory and eating so many greasy double bacon cheeseburgers they get super fat and thus diminish their capacity to wage war.

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Tue May 17, 2016 7:44 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Honestly.. I'd go with a naval force of starship size computer controlled drones that are either remotely controlled by a Very small team of Umiak controllers {meaning like a team of three or even less}.

As far as the Outsiderverse as we know it says.. there is no hyper-light long-ranged communications so either the Umiak controllers would have to be so few in number as to be too insignificant to be registered on the Loroi farseer abilities and only light-seconds away from their remotely commanded drone navy or the drone navy must be fully autonomous following a complex algorithm of mission threat response routines {the more likely case in my opinion}.

No living minds at all, nothing for Loroi Farseers to sense...

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Wed May 18, 2016 4:23 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Sunphoenix, since the Umiak commander actually contacted the Tempest, there was at least one Umiak in the Naam system.
Since the Loroi Farseers can reliably determine troop concentrations over interstellar distances, the evidence implies that the Umiak can now cloak themselves from Farseers.
And we have no idea whether Humanity can only hide themselves from Farsight, or if it is possible to amplify the Human lotai in order to shield other sentients.
Personally my current theory is that one of the Umiaks slave races gave them a device that gives their starships a shipwide lotai.
(Despite what at least one fanfiction implied, I find it hard to believe that any of the Historians would be so stupid as to give the Umiak anything that would help the Heirachy).


Wed May 18, 2016 3:45 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
The Umiak did invade Historian space for a time, so they might have found something of relevance there. Still, I suspect that the secret likely lies in semi-autonomous vessels (another one where Historian toys would be of significance)... or maybe highly specialized lobotomies (Umiak are already often rather monomaniacal, so if they could surgically reduce their signature while maintaining most of their "critical skills", it could be of use to the Umiak fleet: testing would probably take a long time, though).


Wed May 18, 2016 3:59 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Historian space and Historian populations are still occupied by the Hierarchy so some degree of forced or even willing cooperation is to be expected since we haven't been told if the Hierarchy went full genocide with the Historian captives yet. From a historical standpoint occupied populaces are known to cooperate with their occupiers if they get the right incentives (Non Germans were the majority in the Waffen SS by the end of the war as an example).

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Wed May 18, 2016 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Fat loroi... now I need a eye bleacher.


Wed May 18, 2016 6:28 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Rookie17 wrote:
Fat loroi... now I need a eye bleacher.


NSFW

http://well-of-souls.com/gallery/images ... koori1.jpg

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Wed May 18, 2016 6:30 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
The problem with the Farseers is, that we know little about their exact capabilities and that they might vary from individual to individual.
For example: we do not know how good their "resolution" is: How many Umiak would they be able to tell apart in the same system and what would be the minimum number of individuals they could detect there?

Additionally:
Would it be able to overflow their sensing abilities by just having a large number of other umiak nearby, like a system or two away?
Are they even able to sense an exact number of individuals or can they just say something like "large number or enemies incoming"?
What have the Loroi tried to "blind" farseers and what strategies did the Umiak (or other Loroi enemies of the past) try so far against them?
How did the Umiak get knowledge of the farseers?

My personal oppinion is that only a telepath can successfully blind another telepath. I can only assume that the Umiak have raised/trained/created Loroi slaves of some sort.

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Thu May 19, 2016 12:47 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Suederwind wrote:
The problem with the Farseers is, that we know little about their exact capabilities and that they might vary from individual to individual.
For example: we do not know how good their "resolution" is: How many Umiak would they be able to tell apart in the same system and what would be the minimum number of individuals they could detect there?

Additionally:
Would it be able to overflow their sensing abilities by just having a large number of other umiak nearby, like a system or two away?
Are they even able to sense an exact number of individuals or can they just say something like "large number or enemies incoming"?
What have the Loroi tried to "blind" farseers and what strategies did the Umiak (or other Loroi enemies of the past) try so far against them?
How did the Umiak get knowledge of the farseers?

My personal oppinion is that only a telepath can successfully blind another telepath. I can only assume that the Umiak have raised/trained/created Loroi slaves of some sort.




On individual scale and speculation: Good point. Individually it could change, with a Loroi with a savant mind for it would master it, while one just getting used it it, especially after a few strait days of combat, might not handle it as well.

On the other hand we don't know much about it. Do they get mental white noise? Can they only see so much such as be trying to film something on max zoom on your phone, or can they pick out individual details from far off like a military satellite picking up the year of on a coin.

Slave race: Maybe but the problem with slaves is they can be a temperamental bunch. We hear of slave revolts through out history, or when riots and protest in similar working conditions in the last century. SO they would need to be passified, and I doubt the mentality of the Umiake and that of the Loroi would click together enough for this enough.

That and I think the blues they would have had enough experience with each other to know when one of their own if blocking things, or even how to counter it.


Thu May 19, 2016 7:22 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
My guess currently involves cryo sleep of some kind, since as far as i have understood it, it is the consciousness that telepaths detect, a not-quite-corpsicle probably have very little in the way of a signature.

and although you do NOT want a fully AI controlled warship, Autopilot is an entirely different thing.


Fri May 20, 2016 4:34 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
saint of m wrote:
...or can they pick out individual details from far off like a military satellite picking up the year of on a coin.


This is an urban legend/myth. It is physically impossible (as in the physics don't allow) for any satellite that's been launched or can be launched at this time to be able to get the angular resolution to read the year on a coin. Right now the best military satellites probably can do somewhat better than the best commercial satellites (which can get down to about 30 centimeters per pixel). In order to read the year on a coin the imaging system would need an instantaneous field of view (IFOV) of about 2 millimeters. You'd need such a huge mirror or lens (imaging satellites are basically giant telescopes) that there's no launch system that could possibly get it off the ground, and we don't have any way (yet) of constructing one in orbit (and if we did, it would be plainly visible to anyone looking up).

All that's a tangential to your general point and speculation, but as someone who works with optical satellite imagery, I couldn't let this pass without comment.

CJSF


Fri May 20, 2016 4:46 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Loroi allies maybe? The insider mention three homeworld where the Soia placed the loroi ancestors. Now imagine a fourth world deep inside what is now umiak controlled space, outside the range of long range detection. They could even be from a slightly different "batch" of loroi with slightly different characteristics, wastly different culture etc. It is possible thou I doubt this is the real reason. Or maybe the umiak have found some ancient jamming device that are kept onboard the ship that blasted the Bellarmine.


Fri May 20, 2016 8:10 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
cacambo43 wrote:
You'd need such a huge mirror or lens (imaging satellites are basically giant telescopes) that there's no launch system that could possibly get it off the ground, and we don't have any way (yet) of constructing one in orbit (and if we did, it would be plainly visible to anyone looking up).

All that's a tangential to your general point and speculation, but as someone who works with optical satellite imagery, I couldn't let this pass without comment.

CJSF
Any attempts that you know of that look like they're having success in moving the constraint from element diameter to element depth? I know that some useful info on polarizers was recently found in mantis shrimp shells, but I don't know if it should translate to focusing optics as well.


Fri May 20, 2016 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Absalom wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
You'd need such a huge mirror or lens (imaging satellites are basically giant telescopes) that there's no launch system that could possibly get it off the ground, and we don't have any way (yet) of constructing one in orbit (and if we did, it would be plainly visible to anyone looking up).

All that's a tangential to your general point and speculation, but as someone who works with optical satellite imagery, I couldn't let this pass without comment.

CJSF
Any attempts that you know of that look like they're having success in moving the constraint from element diameter to element depth? I know that some useful info on polarizers was recently found in mantis shrimp shells, but I don't know if it should translate to focusing optics as well.


Mantis Shrimp eyes are interesting as they have the most color receptive eyes period. There are spectrum and colors they can see in the dozens that we cannot even comprehend. I wonder if the Farseer's minds work simalarly with their psionic abilities when compared to the common Loroi?

Although I will concede to the satellite one. Pick my house out from orbit why not a specific frequency of familiar mental signatures?


Fri May 20, 2016 11:20 pm
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
Here is the infallible method to protect yourself from Loroi´s scrying

Image

Brilliant! :ugeek:


Last edited by raistlin34 on Sat May 21, 2016 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat May 21, 2016 5:03 am
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Post Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers
saint of m wrote:
Mantis Shrimp eyes are interesting as they have the most color receptive eyes period. There are spectrum and colors they can see in the dozens that we cannot even comprehend. I wonder if the Farseer's minds work simalarly with their psionic abilities when compared to the common Loroi?
Judging from what Arioch's previously said, no, Farseers only have higher emissions & more sensitive reception: if they attempt telepathic warfare, then they tend to destroy their target through pure telepathic power.

raistlin34 wrote:
Here is the infallible method to protect yourself from Loroi´s scrying

Image

Brilliant! :ugeek:
It also seems to work against hot-linking.


Sat May 21, 2016 5:54 pm
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