Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

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icekatze
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

While I have a high degree of confidence that AGI in real life will continue to advance to the point of surpassing humans in general purpose problem solving, if we allow it; that is something that we've been told isn't the case in the outsider universe. Stories about people are more interesting than stories about unmanned probes as well.

Arioch has also highlighted a few in-universe problems with automated ships.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Zarya »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

While I have a high degree of confidence that AGI in real life will continue to advance to the point of surpassing humans in general purpose problem solving, if we allow it; that is something that we've been told isn't the case in the outsider universe. Stories about people are more interesting than stories about unmanned probes as well.

Arioch has also highlighted a few in-universe problems with automated ships.
Thank you icekatze, that’s one of the quotes I couldn’t find.
Also agree with the point you make about people (real bug) stories in this context, and it’s the storytellers’ prerogative too.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by orion1836 »

Where do the Umiak hide their armies?





...in their sleevies. :lol:

I'll show myself out.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Demarquis »

From the other thread:

"It could even be human derived, if they captured one of the other scouts, and reverse engineered our ability to block detection."

"Or simply keep a few "Yomans" alive and in captivity. Much simpler. They would not even have to know why they were being kept alive for so long."

I'll just point out the obvious, merely placing a human in a ship would do nothing to hide the entire ship. The entire crew would have to be human, and I don't think the Umiak have had the time to enslave the thousands that would be needed to crew an entire invasion. And how could they trust such an army?

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Krulle »

And finding some Humans on a shuttle somewhere, capturing them and experimenting on them might not give the knowledge that the Humans have a lotai.
They might find that out if they subverted some Loroi to work with/for them to analyse aliens.

The war is old enough that that might be "loroi kids" which grew up in Umiak crèches, but I would not count on it resulting in a stable mindset.
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Cthulhu »

Demarquis wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:25 pm
From the other thread:

"It could even be human derived, if they captured one of the other scouts, and reverse engineered our ability to block detection."

"Or simply keep a few "Yomans" alive and in captivity. Much simpler. They would not even have to know why they were being kept alive for so long."

I'll just point out the obvious, merely placing a human in a ship would do nothing to hide the entire ship. The entire crew would have to be human, and I don't think the Umiak have had the time to enslave the thousands that would be needed to crew an entire invasion. And how could they trust such an army?
You know, even if Arioch gave his OK for necro'ing such an old thread, it should be at least worth it. This was already discussed long ago.
Krulle wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:05 pm
And finding some Humans on a shuttle somewhere, capturing them and experimenting on them might not give the knowledge that the Humans have a lotai.
They might find that out if they subverted some Loroi to work with/for them to analyse aliens.

The war is old enough that that might be "loroi kids" which grew up in Umiak crèches, but I would not count on it resulting in a stable mindset.
The timeframe would not be consistent, also, where would the Shells get enough humans to experiment upon?

Let's have a conspiracy theory instead. The Umiak had already contacted the TCA years ago. Seeing that Humanity was utterly outclassed, the bigwigs decided that it would be prudent to join the Hierarchy voluntary, before they could send a division or two to "persuade" us. Especially since the Humans are apparently the template species of their Enemy, and we were permitted to send test subjects instead of fulfilling the usual, ruinous production quotas. While the bugs were busy experimenting upon the "volunteers", the Human leadership would work out plans how to sell the inevitable to the general populace.

But the universe does have a sick sense of humor, and decided to throw a monkey wrench in those schemes. An Orgus ship stumbled upon the Esperanza colony, thus spoiling everything. However, the government realized that this wasn't as bad as they first thought. Why not pull off an "Operation Northwoods" to paint the Loroi as the bad guys?

The brave Scout Corps were sent on a mission to find out more about the combatants, yet one ship, the Bellarmine, would be destroyed by the evil, mind-raping, enslaving, genocidal space-elves. Oh no, it turns out that our very existence is considered anathema to their religious beliefs! Fortunately, the Hierarchy, who were contacted by another ship, agreed to protect and support us! Free of charge, no less (after all, they already got their farseer-jammer).

The Bellarmine was ambushed and blown up by a Shell, or even an (upgraded) Human ship, which knew exactly where to look. What they didn't know about, was that a single crewman survived, or even worse, was picked up by the Loroi. Now, Alex shall stumble upon the "device". Face-to-face, so to speak.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

One of my Traveller players came up with a novel idea: A helmet-like device lined with thousands of reverse-biased PN junctions, or 'diodes'.  These diodes were optimized for noise emissions from 7 to 70 Hz (corresponding with alpha, beta, and gamma brain waves) and up.  The output would somehow interfere with mind-reading attempts, and the telepath would detect only static when attempting to mind-read the wearer.

The effect would only work when someone was actually wearing an active helmet; if someone was simply in the same room as an unworn, yet active "psi-helmet", his or her mind could easily be read, and the mind-reader would not detect any static.

(Traveller rules already had a "Psi-Helmet", but my player gave a believable explanation of how/why it should work.)

Whatever the Umiak have developed, I am sure they only know the 'what', but not they 'why' of its effectiveness -- in much the same way that most people seem to understand the 'what' of analog television (e.g., plug it in and switch it on), but not the 'why' of analog television (e.g.,  the NTSC Standard ).
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Demarquis »

@Cthulhu: Dude, that's awesome. I doubt that's where the story is going, but it would be so cool.

@Keklas: I think it would work better if the emissions were electro-magnetic, since that's what brainwaves are made of, and therefore the helmet would do an excellent job of jamming any "telepathic" passive sensors. Course, you would have to heavily insulate the inside of the helmet, otherwise you will jam the thoughts of the person wearing it!

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Cthulhu »

Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:24 pm
One of my Traveller players came up with a novel idea: A helmet-like device lined with thousands of reverse-biased PN junctions, or 'diodes'.  These diodes were optimized for noise emissions from 7 to 70 Hz (corresponding with alpha, beta, and gamma brain waves) and up.  The output would somehow interfere with mind-reading attempts, and the telepath would detect only static when attempting to mind-read the wearer.

The effect would only work when someone was actually wearing an active helmet; if someone was simply in the same room as an unworn, yet active "psi-helmet", his or her mind could easily be read, and the mind-reader would not detect any static.

(Traveller rules already had a "Psi-Helmet", but my player gave a believable explanation of how/why it should work.)

Whatever the Umiak have developed, I am sure they only know the 'what', but not they 'why' of its effectiveness -- in much the same way that most people seem to understand the 'what' of analog television (e.g., plug it in and switch it on), but not the 'why' of analog television (e.g.,  the NTSC Standard ).
The Loroi had millennia to test various hypotheses, and I think that brainwaves would be the first thing they looked into. Sadly, telepathy is not based, related or even influenced by EM. Or any other physical phenomenon, for that matter. The Umiak had only a few decades to experiment upon captives, and I doubt that they found something which the Loroi overlooked. Instead, it's likely that the Shells have acquired this fleet-lotai ability from a most surprising source. Maybe even related to the Humans, the coincidence is just too good to pass up on, at least from a storytelling perspective.
Demarquis wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:30 pm
@Cthulhu: Dude, that's awesome. I doubt that's where the story is going, but it would be so cool.
I also think that it's somewhat unlikely. It would be an incredible plot twist, though.
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But actually, that's what THEY want you to think! Bellarmine was an inside job!!!!

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by DevilDalek »

I still think it's down to the Umiak having some captured farseers that they've some how learnt how to send out reverse interference!

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Cthulhu »

DevilDalek wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:40 am
I still think it's down to the Umiak having some captured farseers that they've some how learnt how to send out reverse interference!
Then why wasn't such a useful ability already discovered? The Loroi had innumerable wars, a skill to hide troops from enemy detection would be incredibly useful. I think that there were enough attempts to invent something like that, yet nothing beyond personal lotai was ever developed. But the bugs got that almost immediately? That's too good to be true, they aren't that advanced, and had no idea about telepathy before meeting the loroi. Finally, couple all that with the most unlikely discovery of the template species, which is also coincidentally immune to telepathy. Quite suspicious....

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by DevilDalek »

Cthulhu wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 11:40 am
DevilDalek wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:40 am
I still think it's down to the Umiak having some captured farseers that they've some how learnt how to send out reverse interference!
Then why wasn't such a useful ability already discovered? The Loroi had innumerable wars, a skill to hide troops from enemy detection would be incredibly useful. I think that there were enough attempts to invent something like that, yet nothing beyond personal lotai was ever developed. But the bugs got that almost immediately? That's too good to be true, they aren't that advanced, and had no idea about telepathy before meeting the loroi. Finally, couple all that with the most unlikely discovery of the template species, which is also coincidentally immune to telepathy. Quite suspicious....
How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?
And they've had a lot longer to study captured farseers then the newly arrived humans.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Demarquis »

"How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?"

By testing them out on captive Loroi. But I agree that there hasn't been much time. How do you like the conspiracy theory that humanity contacted the Umiak years ago and kept it secret?

"But actually, that's what THEY want you to think! Bellarmine was an inside job!!!!"

There was no "Bellarmine"--the ship was faked.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Cthulhu »

DevilDalek wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:38 pm
How would they know if the template species was immune to psi if they were not psi themselves?
They wouldn't, but if the bugs found something which is highly likely the template, they would immediately run experiments on those humans. Including trials with captured Loroi.
DevilDalek wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:38 pm
And they've had a lot longer to study captured farseers then the newly arrived humans.
That's what I was saying, the Loroi studied their own talents for millennia, and don't know about such abilities even in theory. Yet the Umiak, who had no idea about telepathy before meeting the Loroi, unraveled this within one or two decades?
Demarquis wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 1:54 am
There was no "Bellarmine"--the ship was faked.
The ship was real, it must've been real to fuel the mass media outrage about the "evil Loroi". It's the "who destroyed it", that's important. A noble sacrifice to save their species, the crew would surely understand it.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by gaerzi »

Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:56 am
@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?
Arioch wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:43 am
An Umiak will still be detectable by a Farseer even if it is sleeping or hibernating or anything similar, short of actually killing it. Telepathy in outsider requires that there is some sort of physical characteristic to consciousness; Farseers aren't detecting brainwaves or thought, they're detecting the physical presence of the mind.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Arioch »

Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:56 am
@ARIOCH: Relatively speaking, how easy is for a Farseer to detect an Umiak Mind from several AU away? How adversely does post-jump disorientation experienced by the Umiak affect detection? Do the Umiak have mind-numbing drugs to help them mitigate jump sickness? Does close proximity to a white dwarf or being inside an accretion disc have any effect on detection?
If it's only a single Umiak mind, this adds to the difficulty, but it's still something that most Farseers would be expected to do.

The Umiak do sometimes take tranquilizers to mitigate the effects of jump sickness, but this does not affect detectability; neither does being close to a white dwarf or within a dust disc.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

So whatever the Klik-kliks have, it is either a sanzai-resistant species, some form of sanzai-resistant technology (likely Soia-Liron), or some blending thereof. In any case, it is likely something they do not fully understand.
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Demarquis »

"That's what I was saying, the Loroi studied their own talents for millennia, and don't know about such abilities even in theory. Yet the Umiak, who had no idea about telepathy before meeting the Loroi, unraveled this within one or two decades?"

There's another possibility: There are aliens among us, and have been for a long time. And I don't mean the Loroi.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by sdfgeoff »

Theres an interesting connection I haven't seen discussed yet. Loroi telepathy and FTL drives are:
- both FTL
- both have/are mental-physical effects

Proposal:
Loroi telepathy occurs through sub/hyperspace.

I consider it likely that the Umiak have been attempting to find better means of controlling the mental effect of a hyperspace jump, and their solution also disrupts Loroi perception.

This may also explain why Loroi are not afffected by the jumps: whatever it is that provides their telepathy can deal with whatever mental energy is inflicted by the jump.

Some problems with this explanation:
- why did the Umiak develop this tech now rather than centuries ago?
- why do humans suffer mental effects from FTL if they have no telepathic ability?
- why does Alex appear to be becoming vaguely telepathic? Is this common to all humans? Does contact with Soia-Loroi empire somehow promote this development in species?

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