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OUTSIDER complaints 
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Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:42 pm
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Post OUTSIDER complaints
Hi everyone, hello Arioch
before i start i need to explain a bit.
Please excuse my bad choice of words if it happens english is not my native language.
I waited for a long time to post this complaint.
I do love web comic and read probably a .... well alot :)
When I started reading OUTSIDERS, i think it was at work probably more then 2 years ago ?
It was like, WOW what a cool web comic, nicely drawn, space combat, survival, cute "Elf" chicks, epic proportions and such....

But every time i visited the comic after i already read the existing pages; there was .... nothing new.
In all this time from then on there were only a handful of updates.
Yes there was something about deviant or was it patreon?
You were bragging about new projects, other then that there were only excuses about the state of current updates.
Even if it feels like i am exaggerating a bit right now, this seems to beg a questions.

Do you care for your web comic and respect it ?
And what about your readers ?

I have to admit, i don´t know how much work a web comic and this seems a bit hard on you, but honestly....

Wouldn´t it be better to either put OUTSIDERS on hiatus until you solved your problems ?,
Or better quit this comic and get someone else to continue this otherwise great comic ?

Well for me this comic has been a big disappointment so far.
I really hope you get your gear together soon.
regards
Eskrador


Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:44 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador wrote:
Or better quit this comic and get someone else to continue this otherwise great comic ?




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Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:06 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador wrote:
Hi everyone, hello Arioch
before i start i need to explain a bit.
Please excuse my bad choice of words if it happens english is not my native language.
I waited for a long time to post this complaint.
I do love web comic and read probably a .... well alot :)
When I started reading OUTSIDERS, i think it was at work probably more then 2 years ago ?
It was like, WOW what a cool web comic, nicely drawn, space combat, survival, cute "Elf" chicks, epic proportions and such....

But every time i visited the comic after i already read the existing pages; there was .... nothing new.
In all this time from then on there were only a handful of updates.
Yes there was something about deviant or was it patreon?
You were bragging about new projects, other then that there were only excuses about the state of current updates.
Even if it feels like i am exaggerating a bit right now, this seems to beg a questions.

Do you care for your web comic and respect it ?
And what about your readers ?

I have to admit, i don´t know how much work a web comic and this seems a bit hard on you, but honestly....

Wouldn´t it be better to either put OUTSIDERS on hiatus until you solved your problems ?,
Or better quit this comic and get someone else to continue this otherwise great comic ?

Well for me this comic has been a big disappointment so far.
I really hope you get your gear together soon.
regards
Eskrador
the artist here is doing this webcomic whenever he has some free time from his paying gig that allows him a living wage to pay off his bills and take care of his family.

The patreaon is covering only half of what his intended goal for a full time job and right now,.. He has to concentrate on his immediate paying job.

Likewise, he reported that he had suffered a PC Crash and has to rebuilt and reinstalled software not only for his work related stuff but likewise for this webcomic.

If thee is willing to cover is living expenses for the duration of this webcomic, it would probably greatly appreciated.

Otherwise,,, this is a webcomic series and he is doing this out of the love of this storythread and his abilities as an artist and he isn't getting paid to cover his expenses to cover his financial obligations and provide his family.


Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:34 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador, as said above, you're expecting the unreasonable. Arioch doesn't technically get paid for the comic, and even if he was this isn't something like Penny Arcade (which I don't think actually updates daily) or Schlock Mercenary. Outsider is semi-realistic in art style, and in a full-page format instead of a common comic-strip format, so it inevitably takes longer. Add in the need to work on different things for money (he could eventually get enough viewers to pay his bills with only the comic, but that sort of thing takes a long time, it doesn't happen fast enough for him to switch over without that funding source already in place), to find work (he's had a number of jobs in the time since Outsider started), the need to model the sets (by necessity he builds them in 3d), and you wind up with a situation with relatively little time to spend on the comic, AND a higher-than-normal production-time per page. If Arioch was some magical paint roller that automatically produced a new page when used then there'd be more pages than there are, but expecting such dedication from him is neither reasonable nor responsible: that's how you lose authors, not how you get comics finished.


Sat Oct 15, 2016 9:16 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
And Sir, there are those of us who have been with the the comic since its creation. I have been a reader since 2002, so patience is a sign of respect to the author. So please a little patience.

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Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:38 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
I know the irregularity of updates must be frustrating, and I understand when someone feels the need to express that frustration.

I can see how people might think that the project has been abandoned when there's no news posted on the website for months on end. I suppose I need to figure out a way to deal with this, but it's difficult for me to post news when there's no news to post. I feel like an idiot posting "nothing this week either" over and over again.

The current situation is this: the comic is still an active project, but for the last few months we were in crunch mode to get the game I'm working on into Steam Early Access. The lack of updates since April is partly due to this and partly due to that fact that I suck at managing my own time. However, last month I had an unrecoverable hard drive crash. I didn't lose any of my documents or art files, but I did lose all of my program data, including Photoshop, Lightwave, and all the fonts that I use for the comic.

I currently have Photoshop working, and Comicraft was helpful in assisting me with recovering the critical fonts I need (though I had to repurchase them at a discount). Lightwave is still not working, and I am waiting for a response from NewTek to resolve an issue with the license key; hopefully that will be resolved this week. My goal is to have new pages finished before the end of this month, but we'll see how that goes.

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Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:59 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
@Arioch

To echo Codius, I stumbled upon Outsider in the early 2000s. Practically a geological epoch in Internet time. Updates can be sporadic and slow, but despite that, you have still managed to build an incredibly detailed and interesting universe. A place where, in spite of the wait, a whole community has grown. I think many of us here would agree, this comic is worth our patience.

Arioch, I have to commend you. So many webcomics have come and gone since you started this, and a huge number of those ended without even a word from their creators. You've stuck with Outsider through all the troubles and you've stayed engaged with the community. Things may go quiet from time to time, but we all still come back. We're here now, right?

So, while I'm sure all of us look forward to a day where you're able to devote all the time you would like to your comic, we're not going to lambast and abandon you for having to live in reality. You do what you have to and we'll all be surprised and happy when you post a "New page" message on the homepage.

Patiently and eagerly awaiting the next entry,

Mr. B. ;)


Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:36 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Arioch wrote:
Lightwave is still not working, and I am waiting for a response from NewTek to resolve an issue with the license key; hopefully that will be resolved this week. My goal is to have new pages finished before the end of this month, but we'll see how that goes.


Have you ever considered Blender?

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Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:44 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
It would take an impossible act of magic, but if we could have Outsider quality with Schlock Mercenary's update schedule, we would have discovered the holy grail of webcomics.

In lieu thereof, I'll just keep SchlockMercenary.com as my homepage, and keep coming back here. At least Outsider has more prospects for future updates than Keychain of Creation. :)


Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:41 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Mr Bojangles wrote:
Arioch, I have to commend you. So many webcomics have come and gone since you started this, and a huge number of those ended without even a word from their creators. You've stuck with Outsider through all the troubles and you've stayed engaged with the community. Things may go quiet from time to time, but we all still come back. We're here now, right?

I appreciate the kind words. We've been here before. :D

Carl Miller wrote:
Have you ever considered Blender?

Unless there is no alternative, I'm not eager at the prospect of having to figure out a new 3D software package and convert/rejigger/rebuild all of my existing assets and scenes. I've gone through this process with NewTek in the past and I don't have any reason to expect that there will be problems.

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Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:01 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Don't worry Arioch, when Stars in Shadow makes you a millionaire you'll have plenty of time to work on the comic.


Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:48 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Sorry, but no Guys,
i am not expecting the unreasonable.

There are many authors (can´t recall a name right now) of web comic who also do this on their own
with at least one new page per week. (and yes even such good ones).

And when having a problem, they put their comic on hiatus for a specific time.
That at least you owe to your readers.
Anything else is just mocking us.


Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:19 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Well, I , for myself, privately, always considered Outsider as a comic on hiatus, with updates while on hiatus.

I commend Arioch for doing this project besides his real life, where he has to earn the money necessary to pay for servers, software, food, housing,...
It would be mean of me to expect anything from a creator who is sharing his work with everyone for free.
And that is what Arioch is doing.

I hope the software architecture on his PC will be running soon again.

BTW: I get surprised by several of "my" comics. ("my" meaning: the comics I read and follow)
At least two of them announced a "comic finished" quite a while ago. And then, months later, I found out they started updating again!
One continues/re-tells the story from a different viewpoint with some changes (Merceneiress), and one continues the story beyond the original intention (Marry Me).
Both update not that regular. But both have less world-building behind the story, and are not a mix of rendered 3D modelling and hand-drawn elements.


I'll be here. I just hope I'll survive the end of the story line, as a quick calculation will tell anyone here, if the update speed does not pick up, we'll be here for quite some decades more.

Now to win the lottery, and send some money for commissions towards Arioch.
I would always commission the same thing: the next page.
Alas, money is always tight, just as with Arioch.

Spoiler: show
Daily, in the evening, I kneel down to do my prayer:
"Dear God, please make me win the lottery!".
I've been doing so since years. As far into my childhood as I can remember.
Last night, after my prayer, the room got filled with a bright, warm white light.
Then I heard a voice:
"David, give me a chance. Buy yourself a ticket!"
[/joke]

I do not play lottery.
Lotteries are an extra-tax for people who are bad at math.

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Mon Oct 17, 2016 4:32 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador wrote:
And when having a problem, they put their comic on hiatus for a specific time.
That at least you owe to your readers.
Anything else is just mocking us.


Eskrador, with all due respect. Do not put words in my mouth. I am an adult who has bills and pays his taxes so let me be clear... the words I spoke are the words I meant. But if it is really that unbearable leave no one is forcing you to do anything. This community is strong because we like Arioch's work and the universe he has built. He has not mocked us. You have mocked him and the rest of the community.

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Mon Oct 17, 2016 8:44 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Hey, I love the world Arioch's created, too. But there is a arguably valid POV that when someone undertakes a creative endeavor in the public, like a web comic, that there's an unspoken contract of sorts (not like a legal document, obviously) - of expectations. Eskrador may represent an outlier in the strength of language and tact, but I don't think his thoughts are so far out of bounds to be discounted. Besides, Arioch has said himself that he's perhaps not handled the hiatuses as well as he might have.

I think it would be a damn shame if this story can't be told to some logical conclusion, but it sounds like we may be on the cusp of some panels on the way, and once it gets going, with our Patreon help (and others' to come, hopefully), it might get a good head of steam on it!

Just keep doing your best, as you have been, Jim (Arioch). Even when we get frustrated, we're pretty much behind you.

CJSF


Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:19 am
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
I do not know when you started reading this comic, but just a glance at the frontpage should've told you not to invest in reading if you think like this.....

There was never a pretense of regular updates since the time I joined the community.

I remember having read the prologue years ago, saw how fast this updates.... and back then de ided not to ead and join. A few years ago I stumbled over this comic again, and this time I started reading and joined, knowing what I am doing.....

Your choice, but do not blame Arioch. He never pretended delivering monthly or even faster....

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Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:30 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Adding my voice to the discussion. As long as Arioch is active in the forums the comic is NOT dead.

Within the forums world building continues, story continues, fan-fiction gets posted (and its pretty good too), fan art shows up from time to time.

This is not the standard regular-update web-comic, this is a commitment with an understanding that the community bridges the gap between comic postings.

That said, I would support a format change to say a 2D panel with dialog and text below much like an illustrated novel or something like that. But such a change in format is Arioch's decision and I will support whatever path he takes and just enjoy the forums in the meantime.


Mon Oct 17, 2016 2:16 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador wrote:
Sorry, but no Guys,
I am not expecting the unreasonable.


Yes you are. Nobody reasonable would look at how long Outsider has been going on versus how many pages it has up and conclude "surely this webcomic will pick up steam if I start reading it."

Outsider updates are a bit like the McRib sandwich at McDonald's. It's available rarely. You're basically demanding to know why a sandwich which is only ever a rare item isn't available constantly.

You are expecting the unreasonable. If you don't like Outsider's update schedule, you have nobody to blame but yourself for having unreasonable expectations.

Arioch isn't Howard Taylor. He isn't cranking this shit out so fast and so wildfire popularly that he can quit his day job (which consists of freelance work,) and make his living full-time off the comic.


Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:01 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
wow wow Guys,

Didn´t i say that i DO NOT know how much of work an Author has to put into this kind of work ?
(Which is an apology to begin with.)
Did i call him names or otherwise insult him ?
No, i don´t think so.
Did i say that i don´t appreciate the work he´s done so far, or that his comic is crap and i would hate it ?
Nooo, the opposite is here the case.

I merely don´t agree with his update policy.

The way and reason i started my post was because i was frustrated.
And i think all of you can agree with it.

I didn´t want you to think it would be necessary to jump in and defend him.
All i can say is; that i would´ve handled the comics update policy differently.

More updates (Pages) if i were capable to,... or if having problems and other important things to do
informing my readers that i would put my comic on hiatus for .... long.


Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:15 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Eskrador wrote:
The way and reason i started my post was because i was frustrated.
And i think all of you can agree with it.
I agree that you seem frustrated with it, but I am not. I have been reading this comic since it used an entirely different forum, and quickly got adjusted to it. What I find frustrating is only when a comic is taken down merely because the author doesn't want to keep it up anymore... despite still publishing other comics.

Eskrador wrote:
I didn´t want you to think it would be necessary to jump in and defend him.
We aren't quite jumping in to defend him, we're jumping in because we find your statements arrogant and self-indulgent, and are thereby annoyed. It's a quite straight-forward formula: if you don't pay, you don't deserve. There is no exception to this formula, especially if you aren't a co-contributor (and as far as I know, none of us are).

It thusly comes into question: why is Arioch doing the comic? Because he wants to tell the story. Hiatus? When he can put out new pages, he puts them out too fast for this to make sense (I think there've been a few times where he managed more than one a month, maybe even one a week). Quitting the comic and getting someone else to do it? That runs contrary to his reasons for being involved in it, he would have to write the story anyways (at which point we're left with the question of why he's bothering with the other person, since they aren't likely to be as good of an artist), and it's likely that you would be disappointed in the result (because it would likely be of inferior quality).

Finally, you may not know all of the things that go into making a comic (web or otherwise), but you should know enough about the process of creating things to know that the training (self and otherwise) and perspective of the creator has an important effect on what the final result is. To expect the same appeal from the comic if it comes from a different creator is naive.


Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:33 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Arioch wrote:
I can see how people might think that the project has been abandoned when there's no news posted on the website for months on end. I suppose I need to figure out a way to deal with this, but it's difficult for me to post news when there's no news to post. I feel like an idiot posting "nothing this week either" over and over again.


Well you in no obligation to post thing only related to Outsider, Post thing you are doing art-wise, you are currently working on another project, star in the shadow.


Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:11 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
I have a complaint. I didn't get any Taco's last Tuesday! You guys ate them all!


Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:38 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
I want to state for the record that I didn't eat any tacos last Thursday.

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Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:42 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
Arioch wrote:
I want to state for the record that I didn't eat any tacos last Thursday.


Nor did I, and I'll provide the log:

For breakfast, I had muesli and coffee-flavored greek yogurt;
Lunch was mixed fruit, grilled chicken, and Florentine chicken soup;
Dinner was a slab of breaded parmesan chicken and a tiny bit of leftover lasagna.
No snacks.


Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:11 pm
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Post Re: OUTSIDER complaints
That still does not refute Quazel's allegation of us having eaten all the tacos on tuesday...

Tacos are kinda hard to get here.
Also, I prefer Döner Kebab/Gyros/Shawarma....

[offtopic]Did this discussion get derailed so quickly by one random comment?
Nice.[/offtopic]

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Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:28 am
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