Couple questions

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ThatsNoMoon
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Re: Couple questions

Post by ThatsNoMoon »

Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote:What's the smallest you can make a jump drive?
The jump field generators aren't that big, but they require enormous amounts of power. To make one work you generally need an powerplant big enough to push a corvette-sized starship, so that's the minimum size for a jump-capable ship. Such things as jump-capable courier drones or jump-capable torpedoes are not practical (for the major combatants).
That makes self-propelled objects impractical, but for single jumps that problem can be worked around by constructing launchers that power the drive but do not travel with it.
Arioch wrote:This is because the curvature of hyperspace itself seems to be chaotic and cannot itself be measured directly; it can be inferred to a certain accuracy from knowing the local sources of mass, but there is always some variance that (the major combatants) cannot be accounted for.

The general 10 light year limit is partly due to this chaotic variance (which increases with distance), but also due to effects of nearby stars. If you had two relatively isolated stars, you could get a safe jump vector of more than 10 ly.
It would make more sense if the variance was the major issue but stars weren't much of a problem. Stars are very predictable, and even in the densest regions of the milky way you'll usually have several lightyears between your intended jump path and the nearest star. If the effects of mass on hyperspace can be determined with any accuracy then they wouldn't be a cause for concern.

Unpredictable variance is a killer, though.
Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote:How do the Loroi determine their jump vectors?
The Loroi determine their jump plots the same way anyone else would, by using maps of both systems and the surrounding stars. They don't use any sort of psionic methods, if that was your question.
I was asking more about the mechanics involved. Do they have people working out the jump vectors in their heads? Computers?
Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote:How small can the arrival zone get if you're doing short jumps?
Zone variance is mostly the same regardless of how deep you penetrate into the system.
Oh, no. I was asking about jumps between nearby stars. If you jumped between two stars that were, say, 1ly apart then how accurately can you place your arrival in the target system?

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bunnyboy
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Re: Couple questions

Post by bunnyboy »

Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote:What's the smallest you can make a jump drive?
The jump field generators aren't that big, but they require enormous amounts of power. To make one work you generally need an powerplant big enough to push a corvette-sized starship, so that's the minimum size for a jump-capable ship. Such things as jump-capable courier drones or jump-capable torpedoes are not practical (for the major combatants).
You can shrink the powerplant, if you don't need stable or continuous output and it need to work only once, by removing all safety measures, cooling etc. Make bomb ride on bomb.

Bad thing on those are:
- you don't know if they have arrive on to target or are lost in hyperspace
- you don't know their condition on arrive, like can they harm anyone or will they be just stripped for materials
- you don't know when they strike, because they can be anywhere on system

Example of possibly. On last day in war, Umiaks launch 1000 jumping zsarbomb on to earth space resulting explosion of pluto, big solar flares and 10 badly damaged hull to be found on next 100 years.
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discord
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Re: Couple questions

Post by discord »

moon: the unpredictable variance rises with nearby mass, so where there are lots of stars, or even worse, nebula....it gets unpredictable fast....probably some sort of mass/energy drawn to the curved space of gravity, and we can't see it since it is in another dimension.

do note this is just guesses, i am not in possession of inside information that has not been given to the public, it's just me guessing.

ThatsNoMoon
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Re: Couple questions

Post by ThatsNoMoon »

Yes, but my point is that space is chock-full of nothing. In order for there to be a fairly consistent 10ly limit there would need to be something to account for the high variance in star proximity, as otherwise there would be plenty of 20ly jumps.

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Cy83r
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Cy83r »

bunnyboy wrote:
Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote:What's the smallest you can make a jump drive?
The jump field generators aren't that big, but they require enormous amounts of power. To make one work you generally need an powerplant big enough to push a corvette-sized starship, so that's the minimum size for a jump-capable ship. Such things as jump-capable courier drones or jump-capable torpedoes are not practical (for the major combatants).
You can shrink the powerplant, if you don't need stable or continuous output and it need to work only once, by removing all safety measures, cooling etc. Make bomb ride on bomb.

Bad thing on those are:
- you don't know if they have arrive on to target or are lost in hyperspace
- you don't know their condition on arrive, like can they harm anyone or will they be just stripped for materials
- you don't know when they strike, because they can be anywhere on system

Example of possibly. On last day in war, Umiaks launch 1000 jumping zsarbomb on to earth space resulting explosion of pluto, big solar flares and 10 badly damaged hull to be found on next 100 years.
You could simply make a bare-bones corvette drive (absolute minimums, enough fuel for one jump plus passive operations until it enters the attack envelope) and attach a weapons platform to it. So, like a super-sized Toltot blister with a jump drive functionality.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Mjolnir »

ThatsNoMoon wrote:Yes, but my point is that space is chock-full of nothing. In order for there to be a fairly consistent 10ly limit there would need to be something to account for the high variance in star proximity, as otherwise there would be plenty of 20ly jumps.
If there's a star to jump to, there's likely other stars nearby to cause disturbances. One rule of thumb might be that it is riskier to jump out much further than the nearest stars to a system...you could work your way up over several jumps and safely use long jumps in an area of space with a low density of stars, but only by avoiding stars with close neighbors, as jumping into such a system would limit you to short outward jumps. Also, an unnoticed brown dwarf or superjupiter might make an unpleasant surprise on arrival, greatly increasing the hazards of leaving a system that can only be exited by long jumps.

Cy83r wrote:You could simply make a bare-bones corvette drive (absolute minimums, enough fuel for one jump plus passive operations until it enters the attack envelope) and attach a weapons platform to it. So, like a super-sized Toltot blister with a jump drive functionality.
Or you could add armor, bigger fuel tanks, and more weapons, and build an actual corvette instead of throwing that jump drive and its power systems away after one use.

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Sprawl63
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Sprawl63 »

Question: Is there cybernetic modification among the Terrans? Think Ghost in the Shell.

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Arioch
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Arioch »

Sprawl63 wrote:Question: Is there cybernetic modification among the Terrans? Think Ghost in the Shell.
There will be some -- primitive implants exist today -- but I don't think they will be very widespread. The first reason for this is that the brain doesn't have a "data bus" to jack into; you can establish a neural-electronic connection, but then the brain has to be taught to access it, and this is very, very difficult. For example, they now have a brain implant that can be used to restore hearing for a deaf person (the sound is recorded and converted into neural signals via the implant), but being able to use it requires months or even years of intense therapy, and even then it is not always successful. And these attempts are only to restore functionality that the brain once had; imagine the difficulties in trying to teach the brain something new. So it's hard to see things like the cyber-brains in GITS being very practical, at least in the forseeable future.

The second reason I think cybernetic implants will not be widespread is that the technologies of genetics and biological manipulation are rocketing ahead at a very aggressive pace. I think that most effective (and economical) replacements for lost limbs or senses are much more likely to be made from real tissues rather than mechanical substitutes.

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bunnyboy
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Re: Couple questions

Post by bunnyboy »

Arioch wrote:For example, they now have a brain implant that can be used to restore hearing for a deaf person (the sound is recorded and converted into neural signals via the implant), but being able to use it requires months or even years of intense therapy, and even then it is not always successful. And these attempts are only to restore functionality that the brain once had; imagine the difficulties in trying to teach the brain something new.
Have you heard of Kevin Warvick alias Captain Cyborg? He connected himself to ultrasonic sensors and after 6 boring week his brains learned what the signals meaned.
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Sprawl63
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Sprawl63 »

bunnyboy wrote:
Arioch wrote:For example, they now have a brain implant that can be used to restore hearing for a deaf person (the sound is recorded and converted into neural signals via the implant), but being able to use it requires months or even years of intense therapy, and even then it is not always successful. And these attempts are only to restore functionality that the brain once had; imagine the difficulties in trying to teach the brain something new.
Have you heard of Kevin Warvick alias Captain Cyborg? He connected himself to ultrasonic sensors and after 6 boring week his brains learned what the signals meaned.
Duuuuude.
I just read about him on wikipedia. Thats just one of the impressive things he did in just a small amount of time.

NOMAD
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Re: Couple questions

Post by NOMAD »

well it should be interesting to see what kinda of developments will happen. I know their right now, given all the Iraq and Afgan vets, who survived a traumatic loss of limb(s). their is BIG pushy to advance prosthetics into more functional capabilities that is closer to natural limbs. if we get the Dues Ex series, Appleseed and Ghost in the Shell. I wonder how close the author prediction in their own worlds in those series will match the real world ( if that how things develop)

yet I wouldn't mind going the DNA path of regrowing limbs or organ for that matter but still it might be the more ( in my opinion) ethically tanged path ( just look at the whole moddified food issue, now think about DNA modding in any flavor ( little to extreme))
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Markward
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Markward »

All this talk of artificial limbs just makes me reminded of a bad experience in a recent gaming secession...

*shudders* here comes the Manei Domini...

Imagine a Human with a ton of strength, runs faster than you, can spit poison, take a bullet and track you down by the sound of your beating heart... Not fun when they have those kind of prosthetic...

Now back to topic, I would think by growing back the limb it would eliminate phantom limb syndrome?

ThatsNoMoon
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Re: Couple questions

Post by ThatsNoMoon »

Arioch wrote:And these attempts are only to restore functionality that the brain once had; imagine the difficulties in trying to teach the brain something new. So it's hard to see things like the cyber-brains in GITS being very practical, at least in the forseeable future.
Right now we're incredibly limited in our ability to interact with the brain directly, but there are other methods that are far more effective. Current high-end prosthetic limbs interact with the brain indirectly by monitoring muscle groups near the amputation site, which gives good control and a relatively short adaptation period. It's far from perfect, but it works surprisingly well.

It's actually quite a bit easier to have the brain learn a semi-novel interface than it is to relearn how to do something it lost. Humans are tool-users, and one of the benefits of that is that we can rapidly adapt by overloading I/O. Truly novel interfaces are limited due to poor direct brain interaction, but if you can somehow wrap it into an existing sense or muscle group then adapting is pretty quick and easy.

Currently it's looking like we'll be able to create an accurate simulation of a human brain within a dozen or so years, but due to reverse engineering behavior at the synapse level. We still have next to no idea how things actually work.

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Arioch
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Arioch »

ThatsNoMoon wrote: Right now we're incredibly limited in our ability to interact with the brain directly, but there are other methods that are far more effective. Current high-end prosthetic limbs interact with the brain indirectly by monitoring muscle groups near the amputation site, which gives good control and a relatively short adaptation period. It's far from perfect, but it works surprisingly well.
That's absolutely true, but those are just tools being manipulated by your remaining muscles, and aren't really any different (except in cost and sophistication) from the body-powered mechanical prosthetics that my grandfather had. They require that the relevant muscles still be present and operating. These will no doubt continue to be used into the indefinite future as low-cost or temporary alternatives, but they're not the kind of thing a GITS-style combat cyborg would willingly trade a healthy limb for.

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Cy83r
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Cy83r »

Markward wrote:All this talk of artificial limbs just makes me reminded of a bad experience in a recent gaming secession...

*shudders* here comes the Manei Domini...

Imagine a Human with a ton of strength, runs faster than you, can spit poison, take a bullet and track you down by the sound of your beating heart... Not fun when they have those kind of prosthetic...

Now back to topic, I would think by growing back the limb it would eliminate phantom limb syndrome?
Sounds like a 40k space marine, and they're only biologically and genetically enhanced.
Arioch wrote:
ThatsNoMoon wrote: Right now we're incredibly limited in our ability to interact with the brain directly, but there are other methods that are far more effective. Current high-end prosthetic limbs interact with the brain indirectly by monitoring muscle groups near the amputation site, which gives good control and a relatively short adaptation period. It's far from perfect, but it works surprisingly well.
That's absolutely true, but those are just tools being manipulated by your remaining muscles, and aren't really any different (except in cost and sophistication) from the body-powered mechanical prosthetics that my grandfather had. They require that the relevant muscles still be present and operating. These will no doubt continue to be used into the indefinite future as low-cost or temporary alternatives, but they're not the kind of thing a GITS-style combat cyborg would willingly trade a healthy limb for.
I'd trade a limb for the research though. Does anyone know how far along we are to figuring out which synapses fit which muscles and muscle groups? Like by tracing it backwards from the nerve endings or something. I know it's not that simple, but I'm more educated in quantum physics than I am about this; funny that I want to go into the medical field.

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Cy83r
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Cy83r »

Point being, bioaugs can hypothetically achieve the same results as pure bionics.

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Trader Jimm
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Trader Jimm »

I have ALS, a progressive motor neuron disease. The good thing is that there is nothing wrong with the muscles themselves, they waste away when the neuron dies and no longer fires them. The bad news is there is currently no way to rewire them.

But anyway, I wanted to mention a device that you can buy today and use your brain to manipulate a mouse, joystick, or other controls.

http://www.emotiv.com/

Such things of intense interest to me because eventually I will not be able to type with my hands (or feet). There is some work done with eye gaze technology, but brain waves trump everything.

ThatsNoMoon
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Re: Couple questions

Post by ThatsNoMoon »

Arioch wrote:That's absolutely true, but those are just tools being manipulated by your remaining muscles, and aren't really any different (except in cost and sophistication) from the body-powered mechanical prosthetics that my grandfather had. They require that the relevant muscles still be present and operating. These will no doubt continue to be used into the indefinite future as low-cost or temporary alternatives, but they're not the kind of thing a GITS-style combat cyborg would willingly trade a healthy limb for.
Of course not, but there's a difference between prosthetic augmentations and enhancement augmentations.
One research project involved implanting neodymium magnets into fingers, which let the test subjects feel magnetic fields and AC currents. That's overloading an existing sense to provide a novel sense, but doesn't involve replacing any existing parts.
This isn't even bringing in enhancements that aren't permanently added to the body, which includes things such as infrared goggles and rumble packs.

The major thing holding back prosthesis and enhancements is our horribly crude nerve interfaces. We can connect something to a nerve bundle, but that's the finest our granularity gets.
Trader Jimm wrote:I have ALS, a progressive motor neuron disease.
Things like this are why I'm so frustrated that there isn't more funding for this sort of research. There's such potential to improve the lives of so many. :/

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Re: Couple questions

Post by discord »

moon: reason is simple, very few rich people with that kind of problems.

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Sprawl63
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Re: Couple questions

Post by Sprawl63 »

ThatsNoMoon wrote:
Arioch wrote:That's absolutely true, but those are just tools being manipulated by your remaining muscles, and aren't really any different (except in cost and sophistication) from the body-powered mechanical prosthetics that my grandfather had. They require that the relevant muscles still be present and operating. These will no doubt continue to be used into the indefinite future as low-cost or temporary alternatives, but they're not the kind of thing a GITS-style combat cyborg would willingly trade a healthy limb for.
Of course not, but there's a difference between prosthetic augmentations and enhancement augmentations.
One research project involved implanting neodymium magnets into fingers, which let the test subjects feel magnetic fields and AC currents. That's overloading an existing sense to provide a novel sense, but doesn't involve replacing any existing parts.
This isn't even bringing in enhancements that aren't permanently added to the body, which includes things such as infrared goggles and rumble packs.

The major thing holding back prosthesis and enhancements is our horribly crude nerve interfaces. We can connect something to a nerve bundle, but that's the finest our granularity gets.
Trader Jimm wrote:I have ALS, a progressive motor neuron disease.
Things like this are why I'm so frustrated that there isn't more funding for this sort of research. There's such potential to improve the lives of so many. :/
Those government grants are going to good causes, like fixing those F-35's that have proven so reliable :roll:.

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