WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

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NOMAD
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by NOMAD »

fredgiblet wrote:
Wintermute wrote:I guess I don't understand where this comment is coming from?
Seren is a planet that the Loroi had a colony on that was conquered by the Umiak in the early stages of the war. Things went...poorly...for the Loroi on the planet. Fireblade grew up on Seren during the occupation.
I though Fireblade was off planet, but here mother was killed during the occupation , before the Loroi retook the planet ?

man, I can't waited to see the dialogue on these images.

@ Rosen_ritter A crew from the bell ? I don't think so, unless they were blow away from the hull ( and the only one I can see is Ellen )
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fredgiblet
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by fredgiblet »

Arioch wrote:Fireblade lost her home and everyone she knew when Seren was occupied (and later purged) by the Umiak
EDIT: I think you mixed up Fireblade and Beryl, Beryl lost her mom right after she was born.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by NOMAD »

I might of, but who knows, it been a while since Fireblades and Beryls Bio has been discussed

Arioch ( Or fred) care to help out a guy whoes looking for a a marble or two :shock:
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TheUnforsaken
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by TheUnforsaken »

Someone looks cranky :D
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Ktrain
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Ktrain »

Stillstorm will not give up that mustard so easily...
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Razor One
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Razor One »

Her glare is melting my brai :shock:
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caldazar
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by caldazar »

Well, if Loroi captives are part of their far-sensor blocking technology
Hmm. Hadn't seen this mentioned before, nor had I thought of it.

This sounds intriguing, and a good route for the story to take, imo.

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Well, if Loroi captives are part of their far-sensor blocking technology, they might have some along. Or they could just play an old clip and use it as a ruse to dock with the Tempest and then they spring their sneak attack boarding party.

A human captive might work too though.

Edit: Even if they didn't bring any Loroi with them, I imagine the Umiak must have pulled quite a few Loroi apart in gruesome experiments to try to figure out how their telepathy works.
Oh no doubt! Though a mere prerecorded message seems like it'd have little chance of convincing an old war horse like Still Storm...who even if she DID believe it, being part of a warrior cult would probably preclude her for having much inclination to rescue Loroi who had gotten themselves captured (warrior or civillian).

It'd actually be against the Umiaks interest to use Loroi hooked up to any hypothetical Lotai blocking machine. On account of the fact that this would give the Loroi an idea on how the hypothetical Umiak Lotai blocker worked. Even just knowing of the existence of Loroi prisoners in the Umiak fleet in any large numbers would clue them in on that.


A more likely possibility for prisoners, is the Umiak managing to pick up a life boat from one of the other destroyed task forces. The Umiak are more likely to have that on hand in this situation, and more inclined to not hide the fact they have them.
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Hey, these shell guys aren't so bad!

Heh. I like the Bell survivor idea, actually--poor Alex, if such is the case.
I think the Umiak would get along with humanity dandy with those terms :D

Another human survivor is a possibilty, though that would depend on how far the debris of the Bell have drifted. A live survivor being offered up for the Bell wreckage might also at least be a way for the Umiak to gauge whether or not the Loroi picked anyone from the wreck even if they didn't intend to follow up on the deal.
NOMAD wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Wintermute wrote: @ Rosen_ritter A crew from the bell ? I don't think so, unless they were blow away from the hull ( and the only one I can see is Ellen )
The possibility seems pretty low when you consider that another human wouldn't have much velocity to drift far from the Bell. And given how thorough the ship was in killing the bell, I doubt they'd have let the lifeboat get away.

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Grayhome
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Grayhome »

Rosen brings up a good point: how does the Union regard prisoners of war, both Umiak they capture and any Loroi the Umiak capture? Are they seen as dishonored for being taken alive and considered for all intents and purposes casualties of war or are all efforts made to reclaim them? What would their reaction to an Unsheathed being taken prisoner? A notable daughter of a member of one of the higher castes? Or goodness forbid a son?

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by CptWinters »

Ktrain wrote:Stillstorm will not give up that mustard so easily...
Grey Poupon is an important strategic resource. The Loroi don't give it to just anyone...

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Arioch »

Grayhome wrote:Rosen brings up a good point: how does the Union regard prisoners of war, both Umiak they capture and any Loroi the Umiak capture? Are they seen as dishonored for being taken alive and considered for all intents and purposes casualties of war or are all efforts made to reclaim them? What would their reaction to an Unsheathed being taken prisoner? A notable daughter of a member of one of the higher castes? Or goodness forbid a son?
For the Loroi it's losing a battle that is the shame, and dying does not absolve you of that failure. Duty may sometimes mean sacrificing one's life in battle, but it may sometimes require one to bear the humiliation of capture so that one may live to fight another day. Especially since Loroi telepathy means a very real possibility of eventual liberation or escape. Therefore the Loroi do consider it acceptable (if unappealing) to surrender in some situations, and especially during the pre-starflight era of internal Loroi conflicts, it was not unusual for captives to be taken and traded.

The Umiak are very reluctant to take live Loroi captives, because even an unarmed Loroi can be extremely dangerous, as the Umiak learned to their cost when attempting to pacify the occupied populations of Seren and the other captured Steppes colonies. Loroi are nightmare prisoners: they can communicate with each other in telepathic ways you can't overhear or prevent, and even an unarmed civilian Loroi may be able to use her telepathy offensively. Attempting to capture a Mizol or Teidar is nearly out of the question: there is no way (except keeping her permanently unconscious) to prevent a psionic Loroi from using her powers against her captors. And there is no way (uniforms aside) to be sure that Loroi you are trying to capture is not a Mizol or Teidar, so the Umiak now generally kill any Loroi they come into contact with as a general rule, regardless of whether they appear to be military or civilian.

Because they know that quarter will not be given, the Loroi do not expect it and assume any fight with the Umiak must be to the death. Moreover, the Loroi have horror stories from liberated Seren of what the Umiak actually did to their prisoners when they had them, so there is little thought of surrender. Loroi would be highly suspicious of an Umiak offer to trade prisoners, expecting that the captured Loroi may have been booby-trapped or otherwise tampered with.

The Umiak also know that quarter will not be given, and in addition Umiak culture places a stigma on hubris: valuing one's own safety above the needs of the state is considered shameful, and so Umiak rarely offer to surrender (or even retreat) in a hopeless situation, preferring to fight to the death. However, the Umiak are pragmatic creatures; if for example you captured an Umiak planet and offered the choice of surrender or death for the entire population, there's a good chance they might submit.

However, in space combat it is very unlikely that any ship would be put in a situation in which surrender could even be considered. And there haven't been any major ground operations in many years.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by discord »

death is lighter than a feather duty is heavier than a mountain

'nuff said.

but i am curious, where is the reference to trading captives? all i see is 'letting you go'.

NOMAD
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by NOMAD »

I think the "trading of captives" line came out of ideas in the forum about the what the Umiak wanted to get at ( the bell and any surviving crew)

@ arioch

the way you discribe how POW were treated reminds me, sadly, of the Pacific war in WWII. a fight to the death toward the end.
Last edited by NOMAD on Thu May 26, 2011 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ktrain
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Ktrain »

Arioch: Did the Loroi ever develop a code akin to the Geneva convention when their society(ies) coalesced into larger nation states or did their warrior code/notions of honor limit the socially permissible/acceptable actions of conduct on the battlefield?
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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Ktrain wrote:Arioch: Did the Loroi ever develop a code akin to the Geneva convention when their society(ies) coalesced into larger nation states or did their warrior code/notions of honor limit the socially permissible/acceptable actions of conduct on the battlefield?
They probably had some agreements on prisoner treatment. If for no other reason, than if you do nothing but torture captives half to death, the opposition might decide to express his displeasure by sending you the heads of your prisoner warriors to you.

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Ktrain
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Ktrain »

Rosen, that would be a pragmatic evolutionary arrangement I guess, but that assumes that Loroi have a similar conception of reciprocity as human culture (which can be seen in the way Loroi treat their Umiak prisoners).

The question I was trying to get at was whether Loroi culture sees adversaries as having "rights" and that they deserve certain treatment vs. the idea that some actions are dishonorable for a warrior and thus should not be done.

The same behavior could result from more than one mentality. A prisoner should not be beaten, because a vanquished foe deserves respect vs. a prisoner should not be beaten because it shows a lack of restraint and disciple in a soldier.
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Arioch
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Arioch »

The whole concept of surrender instead of fighting to the last requires some kind of mutual understanding between the two forces in order for it to work. One does not attempt to surrender to a bear. What this mutual understanding means has varied a great deal among humans over time and across different cultures. In ancient times, for example, to surrender in battle was usually to give up all of your rights as a human being; what normally awaited you was slavery or later execution, and cruel treatment was more often the rule than the exeption. This was the expected price of sparing a life on the battlefield. Our modern expectations of "proper" treatment of prisoners stems from the courtly culture that developed in post-Roman Europe, and these "rules of war" were established many centuries before the Hague or Geneva conventions.

So yes, the early Loroi had unwritten codes on the conduct of warfare, but as on Earth these varied by era and by sub-culture. As on Earth, Deinar had its era of slavery, and as on Earth, such codes were as often broken as they were observed. Diplomacy not being the Loroi strong suit, these codes were rarely agreed upon and written down in a formal manner -- the exception being the city-states of Perrein (home to what is now the Mizol caste), famous for their elaborate diplomatic agreements (and the Machiavellian finesse with which these agreements were broken).

The problem with any such systems is that they are based on common culture, and they break down quickly as the other side becomes more alien. NOMAD's reference to the horrors of the WWII Pacific conflict is a very apt example of what happens when the two sides have very different cultural views on the rules of warfare. One doesn't have to look very far into human history to see the absolute nightmares that can result when one side ceases to view the other side as "human." These problems can only be amplified when the combatants are truly alien, and further when the conflict becomes a total war. It's important to understand that the first time the Loroi had any serious opportunity to capture significant numbers of live Umiak was during the Semoset offensive when they were retaking Umiak-occupied Loroi colonies, and first saw with their own eyes how the Umiak had been systematically exterminating the Loroi civilian populations on these worlds. The Umiak certainly had their own justificiations for these actions (the Loroi being far from model captives), but I think the Loroi reaction under the circumstances is not hard to understand; many of these captured Umiak were very literally "death-camp guards" and those that supported them.

Given that at this point in the war, the official policy of each side toward the other is total annihilation, it's hard to imagine that humane prisoner treatment is really considered an important issue.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Razor One »

Arioch wrote: {Snip}
Diplomacy not being the Loroi strong suit, these codes were rarely agreed upon and written down in a formal manner -- the exception being the city-states of Perrein (home to what is now the Mizol caste), famous for their elaborate diplomatic agreements (and the Machiavellian finesse with which these agreements were broken).
Why do I suddenly have an image of Tempo twirling a pencil-thin mustache in said-Machiavellian manner?

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Trantor »

Razor One wrote:Why do I suddenly have an image of Tempo twirling a pencil-thin mustache in said-Machiavellian manner?
You´re confusing good ol´ Niccholo with Armand, duc de Richelieu. ;)
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by NOMAD »

Humm, Why I am thinking about Assassin Creed 2 all of a sudden ;) ?

well another question ( if I may) what about now, how would the loroi ( and maybe Umiak) treat Prisoners from both the Loroi Union and Umiak "allied" races ? is it different from the loroi/umiak or is it just the same ( death to the Main partner and their allies ?)

I know the war has gotten to the point of, if a side were the lose, the allies would also lose. but how are the allies treated ( same or worst if my thoughts) ?

and this train of thought goes to Alex, is he a special case, given the rank and Diplomatic status he has ( as a first contact species ?)
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