WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

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novius
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

And here's possibly another ingredient to the already explosive mix: If one actually disseminates that wall of text the Umiak commander sounded off (don't ask me to repeat its designation here, please...), one could see that it named his own side and the Loroi "Forces of the Hierarchy" and "the enemy forces", respectively...

But who would be called "the murdering raiders?" Especially since - Alex wouldn't know - that ship attacking the Bellarmine had yet another unknown design. Rather boxy, not arrow-shaped like the Loroi ships or rounded like the Umiak ones. Though the color of the beam did match Umiak weaponry....

Of course, this is war. Expect everyone to lie for their own gain....

But what if the Umiak commander spoke the truth and there's a third, yet unknown faction in the conflict?

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dragoongfa
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

I think that it is obvious that 'The Murdering Raiders' are the Loroi fast interdiction fleets; who else would the Umiak fleets occupy until the time became irrevocable.

EDIT: One thing with the attacking ship that people haven't mentioned yet. The Umiak don't have a standard pattern in designing their ships, no two Umiak ships are the same visually or internally; they practically tell a shipyard to build a ship of 'x' size with 'y' weapons and give them the resources. The ship that attacked Bellarmine could be just an unconventional Umiak design.

Also if whatever the Umiak are doing with cutting off farsense has an area of effect then having small picket ships that add to that area would be ideal. Such picket ships would have to be minimally escorted in order not to draw attention on themselves as well.

novius
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

Another thing...

Do you know what a really, really scary thought would be?

Loroi picking through the wreckage of the Bellarmine and sifting though the belongings of the crew, finding the occasional pin-up and x-rated movies.

I mean, think about that - they had time enough to recover fifty-seven dead out of the crew complement of eighty, so they must have already picked through the debris in a quite thorough fashion. And, we're still talking about a division of the Armed Forces. Gender equality might have come quite a way, but I'm pretty much sure at least two or three grunts would still keep on to their hidden stash...

Now, imagine Loroi picking though that sort of things. As stated, oversexed imagery and activities must be a completely alien concept to them, in the truest sense of the word.

So.... that would shine a rather different light on Beryl's seemingly innocent inquiry about human biology, right? And her statement that they would have arranged for accommodation in the case human males have about the same demands as Loroi ones.

Add to that, in a case like this I would really hope that Tempo's posture in http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider104.html is really just her reaching for a headset or such and not a prelude to her trying to put some moves on him, for whatever reason.

Because if she would do so, based on a rather skewed image about humans, there's more than enough room for embarrassment (for the persons involved) and hilarity (for the viewer), even if things are just alluded to and not explicitly shown, for the sake of ratings.

...okay, off to fetch some brain bleach...

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by rewik »

novius wrote:Another thing...
Do you know what a really, really scary thought would be?

Loroi picking through the wreckage of the Bellarmine and sifting though the belongings of the crew, finding the occasional pin-up and x-rated movies.

I mean, think about that - they had time enough to recover fifty-seven dead out of the crew complement of eighty, so they must have already picked through the debris in a quite thorough fashion. And, we're still talking about a division of the Armed Forces. Gender equality might have come quite a way, but I'm pretty much sure at least two or three grunts would still keep on to their hidden stash...
I wouldn't worry about this. I'd wager that physical posters would be discouraged (flammable, additional weight, etc.). So that would leave us with digital records. That in turn would require them to secure a working device. So nothing that would have required external power supply (that was blown up alongside the Bellarmine). Reading any raw digital data is pretty much useless unless you know what you're looking for and how it was compressed (png, jpg, jpg2k, wavelet compression - and that's just a tiny fraction of still image compression. don't get me started on video and audio) and how it was stored (filesystems!). Even if they secured a working, handheld device there is the language barier (the "How do you operate this thing?" problem) and the fact that porn is not traditionally stored in plain view (this might have changed, but it's unlikely given how Alex reacts to sex-related inquiries from Beryl).

TL;DR: You don't just accidentally stumble upon a porn collection, unless Arioch wants them to, for some story-related purpose.

novius
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

rewik wrote:You don't just accidentally stumble upon a porn collection, unless Arioch wants them to, for some story-related purpose.
I really hope that not, it would be just too embarrassing for Alex when Beryl asks a question like "And humaniti women really do that?" in her cute, innocent voice while holding a rather explicit image under his nose.... :D

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dragoongfa
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

One think that people don't understand about the military lifestyle is that pornographic material is not allowed, ever.

Take it from a conscript, currently in the reserves. We weren't allowed any sort of porn in the barracks and the punishments were heavy for various infractions; no one risked having a porn stash or even talking about that where an officer or NCO could hear.

Now people did have various stuff on their private cell phones but again, they weren't shown anywhere near NCOs and Officers.

This did wonders for the libido though, people can't imagine how different and more alluring women look after a couple of months of abstinence from porn.

So the Loroi running into a porn stash? Probably no.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by rewik »

dragoongfa wrote:One think that people don't understand about the military lifestyle is that pornographic material is not allowed, ever.

Take it from a conscript, currently in the reserves. We weren't allowed any sort of porn in the barracks and the punishments were heavy for various infractions; no one risked having a porn stash or even talking about that where an officer or NCO could hear.

Now people did have various stuff on their private cell phones but again, they weren't shown anywhere near NCOs and Officers.

This did wonders for the libido though, people can't imagine how different and more alluring women look after a couple of months of abstinence from porn.

So the Loroi running into a porn stash? Probably no.
Given that Arioch mentioned earlier that the crew can't bring any personal electronic devices on board and has to rely on ones issued by higher ups ( page 1 of the forum thread "What was recovered from the wreck of the Bellarmine" ) then the whole porn hypothesis goes out the window, as it would be trivial to screen any personal data for illicit material. (but then again, Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?)

I'd wager life organization on Bellmarine would most resemble a modern submarine (crew size, mission length, etc.). Here's the problem: women aren't allowed to serve on submarines (source: http://www.navy.mil/navydata/cno/n87/faq.html ) and Bellarmine quite obviously has several female crew. So either some things got resolved in the society by 2160, the potential crew go through more severe psychological profiling to weed out any individuals that might cause trouble, or there indeed was a sanctioned way to relieve any sexual tension before it would negatively influence a given person.

Still, if the script requires Loroi to find porn then they will find porn. If it doesn't I'm sure there will be a fanfic where they do, given how often this quesion pops up on this forum. :)

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dragoongfa
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

One thing to consider is that all Scout Corps crew are sanctioned commisioned officers, something that does not apply to modern submarines who have a high number of midshipmen.

Officers in general go through very rigorous training and are expected to act professionally and have firm personal behavior even when off duty. Bellarmine's crew is undoubtedly the cream of the Scout corps and as such have even greater standards of behavior among them.

In my personal experience however things are more fluid than that; my time as a conscript got me into the Greek Military Academy at the end of my tour, which is arguably one of the highest rated such academies in the world. The cadets, both male and female showed acceptable behavior (most of the time) but the academy's staff (by orders of the general who was in charge) knew to look the other way when cadets wished to act on their urges by going to an 'unofficially' designated space for such stuff.

Many people consider it surprising but militaries tend to be very forward thinking on such matters, provided that acceptable behavior is shown on public matters and such behavior does not disturb the workings of the base.

EDIT: Hell even I thought that the Greek military was homophobic before I got through it. Suffice to say that I met more gays in there than out. Including two homosexual officers who lived together.

novius
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

rewik wrote:So that would leave us with digital records. That in turn would require them to secure a working device.
Speaking of which... was there any mention of what happened to Alex's space suit? Sure, the helmet is cracked, the oxygen tanks are empty (what, we're supposedly about 150 years in the future and people still haven't got to rebreathers, as in artificial photosynthesis or such? :) ), there's blood on the inside, but apart from that it's still functional.

Sure, most of the tech used in a spacesuit might be straightforward. Insulation against zero degrees Kelvin, but still with a cooling system to prevent overheating, protection against the hard vacuum and radiation...

but the transmitter might give any Loroi egghead an inroads into how electronics work. First, it contains a transmitter for trade band, which means it's known what should go in on one end - spoken words - and what comes out - a broadcast on trade band, completely encoded as necessary. Second, there's the automated distress beacon.

Even if the transmitter would be much further along than 1960's printed-circuit technology or such, there'd be a high demand on failure safety and ruggedness, which could actually make it easier for anyone to get an idea how things work. Especially if they can still turn it on.

I'm pretty much certain that a Loroi could as easily crack today's (or near future) human tech as they suspect the Historians could do with theirs.

And even if it's just the transmitter they get working.... I'm thinking about all the radio and TV crap broadcasts humans sent out into space for any spacefaring civilization to pick up once they know what they'd be looking for. Were I an alien, I'd quickly place a "don't ever go there" tag on Earth's coordinates.

rewik
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by rewik »

novius wrote:
rewik wrote:So that would leave us with digital records. That in turn would require them to secure a working device.
Speaking of which... was there any mention of what happened to Alex's space suit? Sure, the helmet is cracked, the oxygen tanks are empty (what, we're supposedly about 150 years in the future and people still haven't got to rebreathers, as in artificial photosynthesis or such? :) ), there's blood on the inside, but apart from that it's still functional.
I'd wager they do have something in this vein. Just remember that plants on Earth use a nearby fusion reactor to power photosynthesis, as it requires quite a lot of power. It may be impractical to fit such a device to each space suit.
novius wrote:I'm pretty much certain that a Loroi could as easily crack today's (or near future) human tech as they suspect the Historians could do with theirs.
Quite likely, but that still hinges on them obtaining non-damaged equipment. It's unlikely they'll be able to get anything more than a vaque idea of our tech from singed remains.
novius wrote:And even if it's just the transmitter they get working.... I'm thinking about all the radio and TV crap broadcasts humans sent out into space for any spacefaring civilization to pick up once they know what they'd be looking for. Were I an alien, I'd quickly place a "don't ever go there" tag on Earth's coordinates.
Earth is classified as "Harmless" (it'll be updated to "Mostly Harmless", but only after it will have been bulldozed by the Vogon Construction Fleet)
On a slightly more serious note (as serious as it gets when discussing SF) - remember that the speed of light is a thing. For example the Naam system where Bellarmine was destroyed is 217 ly from Earth, and the date is somewhere in 2160. This means that things broadcasted in 1943 are just reaching this system. And given the distance, you'd be hard pressed to even notice that anything was even transmitted (those pesky physics again, making non-directed EM radiation pretty much undetectable after as few as 4 ly). You'd get a better chance at noticing signals from early-warning radars, but those are from the Cold War, so the signal wouldn't reach that far yet. Even easier to detect would be a signal from Arecibo telescope, but again - it was constructed in 1960s, and even worse - it's not on all the time, only working in short bursts.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

rewik wrote:Quite likely, but that still hinges on them obtaining non-damaged equipment. It's unlikely they'll be able to get anything more than a vaque idea of our tech from singed remains.
That's exactly my point. The electronics of the spacesuit should be in working order - Alex did broadcast until he was on the verge of passing out - and could provide anyone interested at least a start in understanding human tech.
rewik wrote: On a slightly more serious note (as serious as it gets when discussing SF) - remember that the speed of light is a thing. For example the Naam system where Bellarmine was destroyed is 217 ly from Earth, and the date is somewhere in 2160. This means that things broadcasted in 1943 are just reaching this system.
Already bad enough. In 1943 humans were several years into WWII, and if they start looking, they could simply jump closer to Earth - the direction where the signals come from should be easily discerned - to pick up more recent broadcasts. Or move away to get older ones. With a boatload of probes, deployed over several light years, they could stitch together a timeline of Earth's recent history.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

The problem is that after a certain point the signal has degraded so much that it is no longer discernible from background radiation.

Think of open broadcasts like an ever expanding bubble, after a while the bubble will start getting so thin that it's the same as not being there at the first place. Then add background EM stuff and nothing is readable. It doesn't need to be a ridiculous distance either, it's practically impossible that the transmissions were discernible by the time they reached Alpha Centauri which is practically next door.

Targeted transmissions can go for longer distances but they to degrade at an exponential rate at interstellar distances.

The concept is great for a fictional exercise however.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by novius »

Yes, I know. A physics major saying goes like 'the best protection against radiation is r squared'. As in, put as much distance to it as possible.

Still, all of these are concerns real life SETI did ponder over, what sort of calling card we'd leave to our neighbors. And it's definitely not a good one.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Arioch »

If early Earth radio signals were strong enough to be deciphered 200+ light years away -- which I doubt -- the Loroi would only just now be receiving them.

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Razor One »

Oh, the radio signal conversation again. No. The likelihood of the Loroi ever having received a signal from humanity at any point in its history is so unbelievably low as to be mathematically disharmonious, as I showed long ago in the below:
Razor One wrote:
discord wrote:actually analog signals fare MUCH better on long ranges and 'decoding' interestingly enough, unless you specifically design the signals in that manner(hint, we have not most of the time), analog signals get garbled(but still sorta understandable) while digital get CRC errors and packet loss.....the much lower data density works to the favor of analog signals....and some of those early transmitters were scary powerful.

"the most powerful commercial radio station ever was WLW (700KHz AM), which during certain times in the 1930s broadcasted 500kW radiated power. At night, it covered half the globe. Neighbors within the vicinity of the transmitter heard the audio in their pots, pans, and mattresses."

that is a flipping fuckton of signal, if the combatants do not know where earth is yet, they soon will.
The inverse square law says hello.

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

P = 500,000 W
A = 4 * PI * R^2 = 4 * PI * (6000 KM)^2 = 452,389,342.12 square KM

I = P/A = 500000 / 452389342.12 = 0.0011~ W / square KM, or 1.105 W / square Meter.

This of course is just for a terrestrial distance. We're talking about light years here. Two hundred of them.

1 LY = 9,460,730,472,580,800 Meters
200 LY = 1,892,146,094,516,160,000 Meters

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

4 * PI * (1892146094516160000)^2 = 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 (At this point, my calculator refuses to not use scientific notation)

= 500,000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-32 Watts / square meter.

This is ten million times fainter than Voyager 2 (1.9 * 10^-26 W/SqM). In order to get to Voyager 2 levels of being able to hear things across this distance, you'd probably need to increase the signal power by that factor, or a signal of 5,000,000,000,000 Watts, Five trillion watts, A 5 Terawatt signal.

So let's refactor:

5000000000000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-25 Watts / square meter.

The only radio telescope capable of transmitting at that level of power is Arecibo AFAIK, and only in the narrow band and not as an isotropic radiator as traditional radio and television signals. It was built in 1963. If they signalled in the precise direction of the Loroi upon the moment of completion at 5 TW, the Loroi would be able to hear it a bit better than we can hear Voyager 2. If they transmitted at the full EIRP of Arecibo, 20 TW, they'd hear that signal about half as well as we can hear Cassini.

However, Outsider's date (2160) is three years too soon for any signal to have been sent.

The chances of the Loroi ever having received signals from Earth is bupkus. Even using an extremely powerful transmitter and signalling as soon as it's complete, assuming that they even transmit in the correct direction and that the Loroi are listening for a signal let alone something they can decode and play back, they're three years away from hearing anything at all at the very best.

I wasn't kidding when I said the odds of them hearing a signal from us is astronomical. It's more likely that we've heard signals from the Loroi, since they've probably had radio longer than we have, and that we've simply missed their signals in all the noise.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

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Tempo looking sassy as ever.
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I like to believe that whatever Tempo is saying, she is thinking, "This is the hand with which I will rip out your still beating heart." Seriously though, although I'm sure she's got ulterior motives, I don't actually expect her to try to dismember Alex. (Yet.)

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

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The third prophet of the Trinity is speaking, be a good boy and she will favor you greatly.

In a more serious manner, is it me or is Tempo somewhat of a seductress?

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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by Krulle »

Well, the looks of these blue Elves are deceiving anyway. To us Humans very much so.
The body language of the Loroi is very "open". A lot of indicators telling you that they're interesting in you and/or the topic being discussed.
So, yes, she does look very much as if she's tempting.
But it may be her way of catching prey.

Also, we should not forget that we don't know if the way these girls move is a natural thing in their society. We Humans observe it mostly when out ladies invite you to make a move.
But with the Loroi girls...? It might be their way of telling you "Hey you. I've got an eye on you and will crush you if you step out of line!". (Although crossing her legs does put her in a disadvantage when wanting to jump and attack.)

It would be a very big cause of cultural misunderstanding....
And a likely thing to happen if Alex would try to make a move.
The Loroi seem to be very open towards him in this regard anyway.
I mean they did offer to provide "accomodation". Although Beryl was talking about "forced to implement some sort of... accomodation." This "forced to" may refer to using machines, medicine, or whatever against Alex' will, or of requesting a Loroi "volunteer" to test how similar the two species are, thus forcing at least one Loroi to touch Alex, something they are avoiding.

To repeat: the Loroi body-language should not be used to interpret their actions (yet), at least not without asking Beryl about the meaning of certain body movements observed...
And then possibly not trusting the answer fully anyway.

I already have problems interpreting the body language of French women, although culturally I'm a "neighbour" (German). I would not even dare to try to interpret Loroi body language based on what we've seen so far. Especially not when all reference points you have are Female, and no interaction between the Loroi-genders.

Also, I'm asking myself if the diplomatic first-encountercontact training Alex went through covered the slim chances of the Aliens being "bodily compatible and looking very attractive"...?
(Not really interesting into going through the extremely large Q&A threads yet. Their size is... preventing me to start.
I might do so sometime in the future, same with all the Insider information.... But right now I should not start such projects.)
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Re: WIP Discussion (Part 1!)

Post by dragoongfa »

I believe that they are working 'blind' using what they think is best, in this situation Alex looks very much like a Loroi male and as such Tempo has tailored her behavior towards him to be the same or similar to how she would act towards a Loroi male. They can't telepathically read Alex so they are probably throwing things at random towards him trying to see what sticks.

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