How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

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Bamax
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How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Bamax »

Loroi sanzai can obviously be written well and with humor as fanfics demonstrate. I know Jannsen often includes visual images that add to the realism of the effect.

The problem on a TV show is that I do not know how much if at all viewers aould want to watch text translation of sanzai.

It is quite possible to pull an Arioch and let expressions imply what Loroi are saying... but that won't work or be tolerated for long by all but the most die hard Outsider fans if Loroi are among themselves with no human or alien to speak to for most of the show/episode.

That would be arguably the most silent movie ever lol.

I would not recommend giving sound to sanzai, only because that makes it seem too much like vocal speech.


Perhaps sanzai is more a matter of feelings and imagery?


Something like this?


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Cthulhu
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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Cthulhu »

Sanzai is actually the primary form of communication for the Loroi. Despite being telepathy, it is not the sharing of thoughts, or a connection of minds.

Instead, it is akin to speech, since every message is composed consciously. It is far quicker than speech, benefitting from a much higher bandwidth, and even includes a feedback function. However, there is also a subconscious component, which encompasses emotions. This sub-channel is what makes sanzai inherently truthful, since it is almost impossible to hide the fact that the sender is lying, withholding or distorting information.

Now, as to how to portray that in a TV show, that would largely depend on the skill of the actors. It may be possible to combine mimic, body language, play, off-screen narrator comments, and the reactions of non-telepathic protagonists to convey the meaning of the conversations. The problem is that this hurdle would be far too high for a mere TV show, where the episodes need to be produced quickly, like on a conveyor belt. A film adaptation might work, though.

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Arioch
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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Arioch »

There's a pretty well established trope for telepathy in tv/movies, which is a disembodied voice with reverb. The obvious examples are Galadriel in Fellowship of the Ring or Ben Kenobi in Star Wars. It's also relatively common to have the character receiving telepathic communications experience visions; this is probably most common in horror movies (REDRUM!), but it's done in Fellowship both in the case of Frodo perceiving Galadriel wearing armor during her decision of whether to take the ring, and more subtly in the case of Frodo perceiving Arwen as glowing and wearing a gown (instead of the traveling gear she's actually wearing) when he first sees her in the forest. Taking this to far can be confusing for the viewer, as it brings into question what is real and what is perceived, but sometimes (as in horror movies) that is intentional.

There are lots of characters in tv/movies who never speak (including a few protagonists); pulling this off is just a question of good writing and good acting. In Outsider, though, there are plenty of people speaking.

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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by gaerzi »

That brings to mind the question of how the loroi themselves would tackle the problem:
  1. Narrator voice (or subtitles) summarizing sanzai exchanges?
  2. Actors speak for the record (literally) so sanzai is replaced by spoken dialogue?
  3. "Visions" are inserted to represent sanzai communications?
  4. Some mad scientist actually invented a way to record and broadcast sanzai?
  5. Nothing, it's up to the viewers to figure out what's happening?
  6. The loroi just do not have movies because storytelling is lying!

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Arioch
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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Arioch »

Choice f.

Bamax
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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Bamax »

Arioch wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 4:41 pm
There's a pretty well established trope for telepathy in tv/movies, which is a disembodied voice with reverb. The obvious examples are Galadriel in Fellowship of the Ring or Ben Kenobi in Star Wars. It's also relatively common to have the character receiving telepathic communications experience visions; this is probably most common in horror movies (REDRUM!), but it's done in Fellowship both in the case of Frodo perceiving Galadriel wearing armor during her decision of whether to take the ring, and more subtly in the case of Frodo perceiving Arwen as glowing and wearing a gown (instead of the traveling gear she's actually wearing) when he first sees her in the forest. Taking this to far can be confusing for the viewer, as it brings into question what is real and what is perceived, but sometimes (as in horror movies) that is intentional.

There are lots of characters in tv/movies who never speak (including a few protagonists); pulling this off is just a question of good writing and good acting. In Outsider, though, there are plenty of people speaking.
I think a disembodied voice with reverb or echo would work for sanzai in a film or TV series.

That way the viewer could easily see the difference between sanzai and actual speech.

Another oddity is how it sounds... with vocal speech everyone sounds different due to accent among other things. Some have deeper voices and some have higher pitched voiced.

I am not sure this should really carry over to sanzai or not.. I mean certainly Loroi babies in the womb won't be speaking with words via sanzai lol.... and if they do it will be single words until they figure out what in the world the words mean.

Then again having a disembidied voice similar to the user's actual voice is likely far more relatable and makes it easier for Loroi to identify who is talking... so no doubt this is exactly how it occurs.

In that case I reckon Loroi could use a loudspeaker to fake sanzai a group of Loroi, just let it give out a disembodied sound with a lot if reverb and watch Loroi freak out when they cannot sense tge source of the 'sanzai'.

Also if a Loroi learned a few alien languages they could sanzai with that and no average Loroi beyond a talented Mizol would understand them.

Bamax
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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by Bamax »

Cthulhu wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2022 10:42 am
Sanzai is actually the primary form of communication for the Loroi. Despite being telepathy, it is not the sharing of thoughts, or a connection of minds.

Instead, it is akin to speech, since every message is composed consciously. It is far quicker than speech, benefitting from a much higher bandwidth, and even includes a feedback function. However, there is also a subconscious component, which encompasses emotions. This sub-channel is what makes sanzai inherently truthful, since it is almost impossible to hide the fact that the sender is lying, withholding or distorting information.

Now, as to how to portray that in a TV show, that would largely depend on the skill of the actors. It may be possible to combine mimic, body language, play, off-screen narrator comments, and the reactions of non-telepathic protagonists to convey the meaning of the conversations. The problem is that this hurdle would be far too high for a mere TV show, where the episodes need to be produced quickly, like on a conveyor belt. A film adaptation might work, though.

I have said before that I really would prefer a cartoon that is voice acted.

Reason being is a lot of limitations actors have animation does not and you can do a lot of special effects for a lower budget.

Though most of all, what I like about Loroi apperance the most that shows they are not mere humans with make-up is their eyes.

They slant downward toward the nose and are wider with slighly larger irises.

Actors cannot pull this off at all... and I like any thing that can helps distance Loroi from mere Star Trek aliens.

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Re: How In The World Do You Adapt Sanzai For TV Or Movies?

Post by avatar576 »

For me, as long I can be made to believe that it is a form of telepathic communication, separate and distinct from spoken communication, that would be sufficient. It really wouldn't matter too much how "realistic" it is beyond a certain point, since that's not what makes a good movie, TV show or play in my opinion. If there were going to be a live-action or animated adaptation of Outsider, I'd prefer they spent the budget on the best writers and actors possible to immerse me in the story and make me believe I'm experiencing it firsthand. (And gimme an epic soundtrack, too.)

That being said, here is how I might go about portraying sanzai in a creative fashion, if the story were told either from an omniscient or third-person POV that necessitated the audience being privy to the interaction:

The Insider page on Loroi telepathy has this to say about it:
The content of the message is not exactly transmission of “thought” or “emotion,” but is faster and more expressive than spoken language. The amount of information carried per second via sending is about five times the information carried in normal speech, but since a lot of the bandwidth is used to add nuance and deeper meaning to the message, sending operates at only about twice the speed of speech. Think of it as if sending was a spoken message with subtitles, a music track and mood lighting.
To start with, the well-established technique of a voiceover with some distortion would be sufficient to carry the spoken message and the perhaps ethereal quality of experiencing a "voice" inside your head. And, of course, facial expressions and body language would be important as well, as we do see Loroi using these the same way humans do, even when sending. They laugh and smile, and they frown and scowl. We already understand this language, so it's easy to portray. Since much of the rest of the information conveyed in the message is for nuance and context, there are a few methods available to add this kind of subtext.

One way is with lighting and color. This, too, is a pretty well-established and highly versatile technique in cinematography. Let's suppose Beryl is sending a lighthearted, friendly greeting to one of her companions (<<Good morning, Fireblade!>>). Casting a somewhat brighter light on her face than the ambient light, allowing the viewer to see all of her facial features in sharper focus and contrast, and perhaps creating a "glow" of warmer lighting around her would serve to enhance the friendliness and openness of her message. On the other hand, let's have Fireblade responding rather icily to Beryl's greeting, for whatever reason (<<Go away. Leave me alone.>>). We can dim the lighting around Fireblade to make it seem like there's a figurative dark cloud hanging over her. We can move the lights around to a different angle to cast shadows across her face in a way that expresses her aloofness and desire to be left alone. Being able to seamlessly transition lighting and coloring styles not only between characters but for the same character as her mood changes would help to make it seem like a natural part of her being and her way of communicating.

The use of music and sound is another method for adding or enhancing the mood or feel of a sequence that most film-makers already use quite adeptly. This might be harder to work into brief sanzai conversations, but a longer one where there is a definite or dominant overall mood to the interaction is where any reasonably talented composer can write music to underscore that mood. There could also be a motif or series of motifs associated with each character; a way to identify them by ear, and also to emphasize the fact that each Loroi has her own, unique telepathic "signature." Or it could be something as simple as a few subtly-changing notes on a single instrument or synthesizer that may crescendo and decrescendo to "weave" it in and out of the dialogue.

There's a final touch that I might consider adding which, I think, if done right and used sparingly, could add a really interesting and unique element. We've seen in the comic that characters with telekinetic abilities are shown to have glowing eyes when using those abilities. I might use a similar effect when a Loroi is feeling a particularly intense emotion or in an otherwise rare state of mind. As an example, in the anime Rurouni Kenshin, the titular character's eyes change color from their regular violet or purple to gold in very rare instances (I think it only happens four times in the entire series) when he reverts to his former personality as an assassin. On those occasions, he is possessed of a strong intent to kill someone. With CGI or very creative application of lighting or filters, it should be possible to make a Loroi's eyes literally "flash" in extreme anger or rage, take on a hollow or deadened look in hopelessness or despair, or brighten in moments of happiness and joy -- beyond what an actress could accomplish with her own talent for portraying human characters.

Any or all of these, if used right (i.e., subtly enough that one might not even notice it the first time you watched it), could help to set sanzai apart from your basic portrayal of telepathy as a disembodied voice without being too distracting for the viewer.

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