Stillstorm laughed...

[NOMAD]

But its that the whole point, both sides aren't the most trustful, the loroi have probed and imprisoned Alex, told the Umiak aren't to be trusted. Meanwhile the Umiak, "might" have destroyed the Bell, and have come off as more diplomatic, but its still early . . .

The whole situation is unambiguous and its left to our dear hero Alex to decide who to follow. Right now how to tell who is trustful and lying are almost impossible to tell for both sides.

That still don't prove anything about the Umiak being know to lie and "cheat". The only one who seem not to be trusted are the loroi. After all they consider speech language to be treachery. For all we know what beryl showed him on the console was actually a "space lasagna recipe" that she claimed to be the report of the plasma weapon that destroyed the bell.

got me there and beryl display too, but I would have to belief that Alex, being trained in trade vocal and text, could at least make out some of the text, even if its the Loroi trade version. Now I don't know how different standard and Loroi trade are, but there would have to be some similarities ( words, meaning etc) that Alex could figure out what he's looking at and if whats presented is really factual (he is pretty smart remember) .

Which bring up an interesting question (side tracked): would the Loroi lack of tact apply to their computer systems and electronic records ? My vote: mostly truth, but some lying is possible.

Why sacrifice a dozen ships for that wreckage? Couldn't they just bypass this Loroi task force, and continue on to attacking the main Loroi lines, which are already collapsing?

They made a pass over [the object in question] in hope to get a better scan at it and that the [storm-witch] would be scared and leave [the object in question] for them to study more if it was worth it.[/quote]

However storm-witch does not leave, implying that said artifact is important for Loroi and to Umiak as a whole, to get possesion of.

[fredgiblet]

got me there and beryl display too, but I would have to belief that Alex, being trained in trade vocal and text, could at least make out some of the text, even if its the Loroi trade version. Now I don't know how different standard and Loroi trade are, but there would have to be some similarities ( words, meaning etc) that Alex could figure out what he's looking at and if whats presented is really factual (he is pretty smart remember) .

Alex can't yet read the Loroi script

[Karst45]

got me there and beryl display too, but I would have to belief that Alex, being trained in trade vocal and text, could at least make out some of the text, even if its the Loroi trade version. Now I don't know how different standard and Loroi trade are, but there would have to be some similarities ( words, meaning etc) that Alex could figure out what he's looking at and if whats presented is really factual (he is pretty smart remember) .

Even if it was in English it, their technology is far more advanced than our. If he read: "the detected plasma discharge operated on the 012.47891,2 frequency of the third liver-sprout band and lasted .22624 solon" That dont mean anything unless your a technician that know what those data represent and/or have the possibility to compare those data. But even then the data could be falsified. they had time to build up that scenario when Alex was unconscious.

Also he didn't have long to read all the text on the console and was questioned at the same time thus reducing his concentration and ability to translate a technical text.

For any other objection refer to fredgiblet quote:

Alex can't yet read the Loroi script

I still say the loroi could be the one lying and that the umiak are actually the "nicer" guys.

[Solemn]

Alex can't yet read the Loroi script

Presuming the Loroi failed to actually read Alex's mind, and that all the times where said failure is implied are not themselves acts of deception perpetrated for purposes unknown, then they don't know for sure what he does or does not know.
Relevant things that they DO know about Alex:
--He looks almost anatomically identical to the Loroi, implying some sort of connection.
--He speaks Standard Trade pretty well.
--He has non-standard non-Trade markings on his uniform, and initially spoke something identifiably not Standard Trade, implying Standard Trade is not his native tongue.

They don't know how extensive his education in Trade is. They don't know how deep his race's Loroi connection might be, and neither does he, nor do you, nor I, nor anyone but Arioch. When Tempo talks to him about English, she refers to it as his "dialect," rather than "language;" they might think it's a variant of Trade. That would certainly help explain why they assumed it would take mere moments to learn English; a few grammar rules here, a few altered pronunciations there, a smattering of new sounds and declensions, things that could be hard to parse at first but which someone with an eidetic memory could probably work with after a few simple lessons. If his language is a dialect of Trade, that would mean that they might have some familiarity with Trade script. If he speaks Trade through some means other than lingual ancestry from a Trade dialect, that would mean that his people have contact with Trade-speaking peoples, who would probably bring Standard Trade writing with them rather than relying solely on their own script. So assuming that they couldn't read his mind, in full, then they can't afford to take the risk that he can read Trade.

What's more, their own Listel caste have eidetic memories. Even if they COULD read his mind to some extent or another, it would be rather difficult for them to tell how clearly he'd be able to remember their space runes, but they would be able to tell that his role was rather something in-between their notions of a warrior and a civilian, and I suspect it would seem closest to the role of a Listel. Sure, his official job was to fly the Bell and his punishment job was damage control duty, but given that he was able to parse the somewhat limited information Tempo gave him on the farseer within the space of a handful of sentences rather than over a few days and that he was able to process the tactical information on the battle as it occurred in front of him in real time without any help from the Loroi, I'd say the real reason he was brought there was his ability to analyze information, and information analysis was probably very strongly emphasized during his training as a scout. The fact that he speaks Trade so well right now tells us that he has a certain talent for languages. So if they had some limited success in reading his mind, enough to know that he didn't know how to read or write in Trade, then they'd know enough to know that he could learn, quickly, and that such learning could prove disastrous to them if they try too much funny business.

So if they worked out an elaborate hoax, I really really doubt that it'd be something that could be unraveled with a few simple and highly visible lines of text that they had chosen to show him, while falsifying the battle that their captain had ordered him away from.

[TrashMan]

Kliktiks action make perfect sense actually.
Assuming he's tellling the truth, there is no need for him to risk further losses in an unimportant battle.The wreckage of a third party is interesting, but it's hardly worth if for eihter side. By now the Loroi should know that humans are technologicly inferior. They should also know humans control only six worlds (Alex told them that much). Based on that information alone, the value of humanity as allies is minimal.

The Loroi concern for the humans is based on the fact that they're for all practical purposes, immune to the Loroi's greatest strategic advantage. A capability that the Umiak seem to have also displayed. This makes finding out everything you can about the humans an imperative.

I'm talking about letting the Umiak have the wreckage.
There's only two possible options - human's "invisibility" has something to do with Umiak or it doesn't.

If it does, then getting the data and Alex back home is of high priority for Loroi. Umiak getting their hands on the wreckage is of no importance, if Umiak already possess the knowledge/tech to hide from Loroi...and they do.

If it doesn't, then the only value of the wreckage is knowledge of humanity...who are weak and small, and if war has truly entered it's final stages, utterly insignificant.


Furthermore, it make NO SENSE to Kliktik to openly admit fleet-wide deployment of the farseer-jammer. You DON'T tell your enemy about your secret weapon or tactical advantage.
If Kliktik is lying, and only his group has that device, than his action is utter stupidity, as Stillstorm will report back and the Loroi will increase their vigil any way they can, making a true invasion far more difficult for the Umiak.
If he is telling the truth, then his actions only make sense if it truly is too late for Stillstorm to do anything about it.
So either he's really telling the truth, or he is a moron of epic proportions.

[Tash]

In that case Stillstorms vision of relaity must be exceptionally limited...pretty much to "how I want thingy to be".

Everything Kikitik said makes perfect sense and there is nothing to contradict it...so it does bear no resemblance to the Iraq example.

Err...there's nothing to prove anything he said, either.
He could be talking out of his [waste expulsion orifice] about a lot of things, though likely not all of them...as has been said, it's extremely effective to mix lies with truth when attempting to mislead an enemy, especially when that enemy is out of touch with central command.
I doubt it's all just a ploy to get a hold of the destroyed hu-man ship, but that's got to be a large part of it.

That said, I'm not seeing the issue with the laugh.
Think about it, people.

Tictac-27 just told Stillstorm that her entire race is about to lose- in a war of annihilation- and she responded by laughing right in his face.
When a human does this, we celebrate it; he's showing he has supremely massive balls in the face of annihilation.
He's telling Xerxes to 'come and take them'.

When an alien does it, they're being 'tactless'.

See the problem?

[TrashMan]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

[Nemo]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

You seem to be operating from a presumption that there is still a war to be fought. If Tiky is being honest, from his perspective the war is over in all but name. Destroying Stillstorm's group wont affect its course, whatever that wreckage is might have some bearing on the future though. Depends, can he say without getting his hands on it? Tiky is taking a long view.

As for Stillstorm's response?

"To the Umiak Commander, NUTS!, The Loroi Commander"

[Sprawl63]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

Its not sacrificing a superior tactical position. If Stillstorm is let go, then they will return to find the information confirmed anyway. As far as 27 is concerned, any action Stillstorm can take is insignificant as he believes the war is already won. He considers the acquisition of the Bellarmine a higher priority in that light then the destruction of a battered strike force, tiny in comparison to the fleets that are probably doing battle elsewhere.

He also seems to be weary of war on a personal level and would rather not spill any more blood then has too be.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Human beings tend to favor risk avoidance over reward seeking. This may not be the case with the Umiak.

[Trantor]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

FUD.
That´s all he can do.

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm.

Not really.

Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over...

Thinking one minute before LOL isn´t exactly cool...

[TrashMan]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

You seem to be operating from a presumption that there is still a war to be fought. If Tiky is being honest, from his perspective the war is over in all but name. Destroying Stillstorm's group wont affect its course, whatever that wreckage is might have some bearing on the future though. Depends, can he say without getting his hands on it? Tiky is taking a long view.

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

[TrashMan]

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

Its not sacrificing a superior tactical position. If Stillstorm is let go, then they will return to find the information confirmed anyway. As far as 27 is concerned, any action Stillstorm can take is insignificant as he believes the war is already won. He considers the acquisition of the Bellarmine a higher priority in that light then the destruction of a battered strike force, tiny in comparison to the fleets that are probably doing battle elsewhere.

He also seems to be weary of war on a personal level and would rather not spill any more blood then has too be.

It is sacrificing a superior tactical position. If he didn't slowly drift out of the cloud to talk, his fleet could have accelerated, burst out at high speed and obliderated the 51st.
However you want to view it, the 51st is still a Loroi asset that can still fight and take out many Umiak ships, if allowed to retreat.
So yes, his actions only make sense if he was telling the truth about Azimol.

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm.

Not really.

Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.

[Trantor]

Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.

Nope, they´re just drifting. Otherwise you would be right.

[Arioch]

If Stillstorm is willing to withdraw, there isn't much the Umiak can do to force her to fight. Even if the Umiak forces build up a lot of speed before they break into the open; Strike Group 51 can simply move out of the way on a perpendicular course.

[TrashMan]

Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.

Nope, they´re just drifting. Otherwise you would be right.

Yes, they are drifting. But they could have been accelerating.

If Stillstorm is willing to withdraw, there isn't much the Umiak can do to force her to fight. Even if the Umiak forces build up a lot of speed before they break into the open; Strike Group 51 can simply move out of the way on a perpendicular course.

If the Umiak built up speed, they should be good for one pass.
Their forward speed would add to the new vector if they also start accelerating perpendiculary.
Of course, there's no way they could catch up again after that...

[Overkill Engine]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

I have to disagree. From observation I would say that the usual Loroi tactic is not to stand ground and slug it out, more likely it is a tendency to strike and withdraw before taking casualties.

This Umiak commander has been noticed to be more...cunning/observant/subtle than most, and will do uncharacteristic things as well. Such as try to find out why the enemy is holding position instead of withdrawing.

So instead of just stampeding into enemy lines like a runaway bull, it instead opts to attempt communication to glean further information if possible. Any information is better than no information.

And information is king in total war. Sure, resources and personnel are great to have, but they are not worth nearly as much as you'd think without knowing where to allocate them, or at least, knowing where *not* to allocate them. (Edit: An easy historical example being the Maginot Line.)

This Umiak commander might just be taking the long view of knowing that you can destroy an enemy later in exchange for the one time chance at information now. This is just a battle, not the entire war.

And if you get to mind screw a noted enemy commander whether by truth or lies while doing it? Icing on the cake.

[TrashMan]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

I have to disagree. From observation I would say that the usual Loroi tactic is not to stand ground and slug it out, more likely it is a tendency to strike and withdraw before taking casualties.

This Umiak commander has been noticed to be more...cunning/observant/subtle than most, and will do uncharacteristic things as well. Such as try to find out why the enemy is holding position instead of withdrawing.

So instead of just stampeding into enemy lines like a runaway bull, it instead opts to attempt communication to glean further information if possible. Any information is better than no information.

And information is king in total war. Sure, resources and personnel are great to have, but they are not worth nearly as much as you'd think without knowing where to allocate them, or at least, knowing where *not* to allocate them.

This Umiak commander might just be taking the long view of knowing that you can destroy an enemy later in exchange for the one time chance at information now. This is just a battle, not the entire war.

And if you get to mind screw a noted enemy commander whether by truth or lies while doing it? Icing on the cake.

And what information did he gain from that conversation? None. He did all the talking. The only one that got information out of this conversation were the Loroi.
They found out that a Umiak fleet is bypassing Azimol and that the Umiak now have the tech to prevent farseer detection.
What information would be worth leaking that info to the Loroi?

You just don't give enemy any info without getting something more valuable in return. You also don't jeapordize vital fleet actions out of curiosity.

[Siber]

There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.

[Sprawl63]

There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.

On page 59 Tempo explains that two strike groups that arrived before Strike Force 51 were ambushed and destroyed, presumably in a similar fashion.