Stillstorm laughed...

[Codius_Dak]

Did anyone else notice that he offered asylum to still storm on 88? just before he started the run on sentence about waiting he said a "place to live" perhaps he is fascinated by Stillstorm in the fashion that Patton was with Rommel. And from a stand point of imminent victory her dying is a gross waste. perhaps he is trying to save here and her command out of respect.

[Ktrain]

Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).

Didn't the Umiak response to Loroi guerilla warfare become bombing them from orbit?


Telepathy just gives the Loroi to big of an advantage to try to rule over them as a client race. Not with the numbers they currently have.

[Nemo]

There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.

Cunning, yes, but if hes bluffing about being the cause of the jamming he over played his hand with the notion of major fleets pressing on Azimol. If command receives a report of this dialogue without a concurrent invasion and they will be forced to assume Tiky was grasping here, not just about the fleets but about the jamming as well.

I do like the notion that maybe this is all a ploy on his part to figure out if the Loroi farseers are jammed by some unknown force for the same reason I think everyone else would like to think so, it means the Loroi aren't screwed. Or that everyone is equally screwed by the bigger badder guy turning the space nazis and commies into instant hippies (just add humans!). But, from a narrative stand point, I can easily see the Loroi being offered up as a sacrifice to the gods of drama. I keep remembering reading somewhere that Ellen was supposed to be tethered to Alex, and found lifeless when he comes to floating in space, but that was dropped as being too dark. Knowing it was entertained seriously makes me think Arioch is perfectly capable of putting together a very dark narrative, but discerning enough to leave out the parts that might make folks squeamish. Makes it difficult to know which way hes going to take the story

Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).

Which would be... neither? I mean, neither side has set out to kill everyone but themselves, just anyone strong enough to resist them. Ok you can make an argument for the Umiak given that they work their subjects to death, but they do that to themselves too. Or maybe... genocidal...? Sure, but then, both? Each has a history of expunging others who stand in their way.

[Karst45]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

and that actually what make his move so effective. if he only make sense if he's telling the truth then lying seem less plausible.

For moral of an already understaffed loroi crew it enough for them to actually question this situation and thus create doubt. And if your best interdiction fleet actually have doubt.....

[fredgiblet]

Which would be... neither?

The Loroi have committed xenocide twice. The Umiak have not done so to the best of our knowledge, though they HAVE committed genocide against one of their sub-species.

[Nemo]

I must be failing at comprehending. I thought the race the Umiak killed were distinctly separate from Umiak rather than a flavor of Umiak. I guess I'm not seeing the distinction between xeno and geno as applied here.

[Overkill Engine]

And what information did he gain from that conversation? None. He did all the talking. The only one that got information out of this conversation were the Loroi.
They found out that a Umiak fleet is bypassing Azimol and that the Umiak now have the tech to prevent farseer detection.
What information would be worth leaking that info to the Loroi?

You just don't give enemy any info without getting something more valuable in return. You also don't jeapordize vital fleet actions out of curiosity.

Speech is not the only way to obtain information. The enemy reaction to attempted communication is also valuable. The fact that the enemy was willing to stop fighting to talk at all says a lot. The fact that the enemy would destroy an unknown artifact rather than let you have a closer look at it says a lot. (Note: Beware bias for or against that information's usefulness brought on by reader omniscience.) Unquestioningly taking advantage of a perceived weakness is a great way to get your forces slaughtered. There is a delicate balance to be struck between senseless aggression and unceasing cowardice in order to be an effective military commander.

And it stood to gain making the enemy withdraw (moral loss) and a look at what they were so doggedly guarding without having to spend any *additional* losses....all for the simple price of opening a comm channel and giving up the opportunity to smash the enemy right this second. (Anything already spent is already spent. No sense crying over spilled milk.) Another option of course is to disregard the enemy doing something highly unusual, froth at the mandibles, and charge. It's not like that approach has already lost the Umiak a lot of resources and personnel already or anything.

And leaking the right info, whether true or not, can be easily more damaging to the entire enemy war effort than taking out one of their notorious commanders. The war is more than just this battle in isolation. That may be what makes this Umiak commander different. It might be thinking in terms beyond "I must eliminate all enemies at *this* battle."

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

Isn't that exactly how you want a bluff to work?

[TrashMan]

And what information did he gain from that conversation? None. He did all the talking. The only one that got information out of this conversation were the Loroi.
They found out that a Umiak fleet is bypassing Azimol and that the Umiak now have the tech to prevent farseer detection.
What information would be worth leaking that info to the Loroi?

You just don't give enemy any info without getting something more valuable in return. You also don't jeapordize vital fleet actions out of curiosity.

Speech is not the only way to obtain information. The enemy reaction to attempted communication is also valuable. The fact that the enemy was willing to stop fighting to talk at all says a lot. The fact that the enemy would destroy an unknown artifact rather than let you have a closer look at it says a lot. Unquestioningly taking advantage of a perceived weakness is a great way to get your forces slaughtered. There is a delicate balance to be struck between senseless aggression and unceasing cowardice in order to be an effective military commander.

All information that could have been gained without loosing the advantageous position.

Not the the "enemy" was willing to stop. The Loroi were holding position, not actively attacking.
Kliktik could have attempted to talk without revealing the true size of his fleet or drifting out of the cloud. That way, his fleet could still charge out of the cloud and surprise the Loroi.

As it stands, he failed to get the Bell. (but the chances of getting it were always practicly zero)
He failed to intimidate the Loroi
He failed to gain any info...but the Loroi did get much info.

Let's face the facts here - Kliktik gained nothing with this manouver and lost a LOT.

There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.

Bloody unlikely. Guessing Loroi farsensing is being jammed? As opposed to it being a Loroi trap of some kind? Kliktik would be grasping for amazing straws here to come up with such a retarded plan.
Rather than make use of a enemy weakness (regardless of he source), he opts to abandon a favorable position and give the Loroi info on a silver platter?

[TrashMan]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

Isn't that exactly how you want a bluff to work?

You bluff should make sense to you...and not to the enemy. A bluff should basicly be credible, but not redicolous.
Acting illogicly and loosing more than you gain is a TERRIBLE bluff.

[discord]

bug commander lost little really, even if he charged out of the cloud loroi superior acceleration could probably avoid engagement, at best he might manage a joust that the loroi did not want, that is not tantamount to 'easily destroying the enemy' as shown previously in engagements.

and we know little of the bug side of the equation, the bugs could be low on expendables(munitions, food or fuel), making engagement less wanted, or maybe the loroi are in position to notice the entrance of the next scheduled umiak supply transport and intercept it, at which point making them move would be....wanted...or etc.

we just do not know enough about the bug side to know what tik-27 is thinking and what is logical for him.

[Karst45]

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

Isn't that exactly how you want a bluff to work?

true, he made a bluff they [loroi] read into it.


kliktiks27 Make bluff check, Roll d20= 1

Critical fail!


@trashman
Your just assuming that they [umiak] need to kill every loroi in sight. And your assuming the Umiak are lying.

Most people seem to consider the Loroi as the hero of this comic, and thus they cant lose. but what Tik-27 is actually telling the true?

[Overkill Engine]

we just do not know enough about the bug side to know what tik-27 is thinking and what is logical for him.

Thus my comment about being wary of reader omniscience causing bias for or against the usefulness of the information gained from communication.

How much do we actually know, and how much are we *assuming*?

The Umiak commander could be waiting a little bit longer to stomp out an enemy remnant in exchange for information they may not be able to readily obtain any other way....small price. Cheap, even. War is a series of gambles, not a cut and dry numbers simulation.

That piece of information could be enough to tip the balance. Yes, this means they possibly gave up destroying an effective enemy commander. That washes out if the Loroi can't prevent the Umiak from withdrawing either, since the Loroi might only get a similar chance if the Umiak commander chooses to bull-rush them. They still possibly stood more to gain than lose from talking.

Also, conserving resources if possible is plain wise. Gaining information in exchange for either a lie the enemy can't immediately disprove, or a truth they can't do anything about, especially if either could be highly damaging to enemy morale....meh, why not?

[NOMAD]

How much do we actually know, and how much are we *assuming*?

The Umiak commander could be waiting a little bit longer to stomp out an enemy remnant in exchange for information they may not be able to readily obtain any other way....small price. Cheap, even. War is a series of gambles, not a cut and dry numbers simulation.

That piece of information could be enough to tip the balance. Yes, this means they possibly gave up destroying an effective enemy commander. That washes out if the Loroi can't prevent the Umiak from withdrawing either, since the Loroi might only get a similar chance if the Umiak commander chooses to bull-rush them. They still possibly stood more to gain than lose from talking.

Also, conserving resources if possible is plain wise. Gaining information in exchange for either a lie the enemy can't immediately disprove, or a truth they can't do anything about, especially if either could be highly damaging to enemy morale....meh, why not?

Oooooo that last part make the whole situation on page 89 much more interesting. however from what this reader gathers, Still-storm has made up her own decision, she calling Kilk-27 buff by firing off a torpedo at the bell remains.

now would it not be interesting if the torpedo was "intercepted" by a closer, undetected Umiak fleet ( coming from the protostar cloud).

[TrashMan]

Given the number of ships Kliktik has at his disposal (ultra-heavies!!!!) the Loroi really don't stand a chance in this battle. And they know it... The Umiak can't stop them from leaving either.


So I ask again - what information did the Umiak gain from this? And what did Loroi get?
What did they hope to gain?
Did Kliktik really believe Sillstorm would surrender (even if she would, what about her subordiantes?)

Seems to me Klitik is stalling. Making the loroi loose more time by listening to him babble on.
And I doubt he's lying.
Not only did Arioch hint the blance of power is about to change, but lying about your invisible fleets when an enemy commander can run back to tell is a very, very bad move.

If Umiak have the hiding tech, but no hidden fleets, the Klitik is a moron as he tipped hte Loroi off, who can now prepare.
If Umiak have both, then him telling it changes nothing.
If Umiak have neither then that would be the greatest bluff ever (and it goes against what Tempo said)

[bunnyboy]

Maybe the right question is not "What will umiaks gain from this?" but "What will Tikkutik gain from this?"

Given his uniqueness and different values, he may have some problems with his superiors or he just wan't something to get himself out of front lines.

[TrashMan]

Why do you even assume he is unique?

[bunnyboy]

[TrashMan]

That Stillstorm recognizes him hardly make him unique...

Is there any confirmation that Kliktiks behavior is not common for a Umiak?

We seen Fireblade, Beryl, Temp and Stillstorm from the Loroi... we only seen one Umiak so far. So what is out of ordinary/uncommon here?