Stillstorm laughed...

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NOMAD
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by NOMAD »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:
NOMAD wrote:
now would it not be interesting if the torpedo was "intercepted" by a closer, undetected Umiak fleet ( coming from the protostar cloud).
That...is EXTREMELY unlikely.

For one thing, I think the Loroi fleet and the bell wreckage are WELL in excess to a light second out away from the protostar cloud. When you've got multiple second delay's between when the missle launches and when your retaliating beam reaches the area in question, it's extremely hard to make hits. And the missle doesn't have long to reach the Bell given how the task force is arrayed around it defensively.

If the Umiak were in this position to do something like that they'd probably also be in position to wipe the Loroi out in a sneak attack.
very true,but I was just thinking that it could happen, for dramatic effect. beside how that "tactical situation" going to happen between the loroi and Umiak forces ;)
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bunnyboy
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by bunnyboy »

And if umiaks don't have any ability to mess farsensing, they can see that loroi are different here and maybe third party is messing with them.
Then 27 definitely want everything inside Bell, and had pokerface of millenia.
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Nemo
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

NOMAD wrote:Going to answer these two together: Correct, but the mere presence of the Bell is the Steps region, or the fact that a lone primitive scout was able to enter the steps and not be intercepted by the loroi fleets. That not a fact alone would be very interested to the Umiak.
Bolded parts again, reader knowledge. Unless Tiky's group blew it to hell they wouldn't know it was alone, can't know its primitive, and don't know it wasn't intercepted by the Loroi. They could be interested in it precisely because they think it was seen by Farseer and intercepted, circumventing their jamming.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by NOMAD »

Nemo wrote:
NOMAD wrote:Going to answer these two together: Correct, but the mere presence of the Bell is the Steps region, or the fact that a lone primitive scout was able to enter the steps and not be intercepted by the loroi fleets. That not a fact alone would be very interested to the Umiak.
Bolded parts again, reader knowledge. Unless Tiky's group blew it to hell they wouldn't know it was alone, can't know its primitive, and don't know it wasn't intercepted by the Loroi.
Ok so some (or most ) of the info I'm using are reader info. its hard note not to given the amount of info we( the readers) know about. Yet I would continue to argue the kilk-27 knows more than what you are stated he knows ( or suspects) since he would know more now from the probing attack of Umiak vessels. First. the wreck is small and I'm sure the Umiak would have some sort of spectoranaylsis sensor that could tell them the composition of the ship ( the alloys and composites could be a given away to tech level) Second: The "treasure" was nearly destroyed. Now this could be explained as

A) The Umiak jammer ship, panicked and tired to kill off the bell but given the ship was so close to the bell, the crew (umiak or third party) were able to pick up the radio transmission of the Damage Control crew and continued to fire to make sure their were no witnesses (or records). But as you would stated, The umiak might be worried about how the ship was able to get close to their jammers and might have a counter to the farseer-jammer. Hence the request to hand the bell over for escape.

B) the jammer is a third party and might be observing the exchange between the fleets. (for what ever propose). Thus kilk-27 is bluffing in the hopes of getting the bell ( to find out what happened).

but i find it hard to put myself into Kilk-27 shoes ( err ex-skeleton)
Nemo wrote: They could be interested in it precisely because they think it was seen by Farseer and intercepted, circumventing their jamming.
I honestly didn't think about that, but it only works if the third party was the ones who destroyed the bell.
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

Thats true, and I don't think it likely yet find it wholly possible. Tempo noted the tactics the Umiak have used in their engagements indicated the Umiak anticipated farseer failure, but she also noted that other task groups arrived ahead of them and were destroyed. Tiky may have been traversing under the proplyd for some measure of cover and just stumbled over the fact the Loroi are being jammed when he surprised the first intercept group. Tiky gives the impression that he doesn't know what happened to the Bell, suggests third party if both he and the Loroi are being honest. Of course, this line of reasoning requires him to be both duplicitous and honest in the same... err... breath. There are just too many variables to pin down right now, but enough foreshadowing going on that when Arioch springs whatever hes got up his sleeve its not going to come out of left field somewhere.


And just because the ship wasn't built of unobtanium doesn't mean whoever made it doesn't have unobtanium. You could say the bar is no lower than X, but thats all. And who knows, the Umiak may not even have that capacity right now. These are one off disposable warships they're riding around in, scientific analyses of any substantial kind may not be possible. Either way, its piqued his interest and thats what matters.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by NOMAD »

Nemo wrote:Thats true, and I don't think it likely yet find it wholly possible. Tempo noted the tactics the Umiak have used in their engagements indicated the Umiak anticipated farseer failure, but she also noted that other task groups arrived ahead of them and were destroyed. Tiky may have been traversing under the proplyd for some measure of cover and just stumbled over the fact the Loroi are being jammed when he surprised the first intercept group. Tiky gives the impression that he doesn't know what happened to the Bell, suggests third party if both he and the Loroi are being honest. Of course, this line of reasoning requires him to be both duplicitous and honest in the same... err... breath. There are just too many variables to pin down right now, but enough foreshadowing going on that when Arioch springs whatever hes got up his sleeve its not going to come out of left field somewhere.
Well put, it may just turn out that kilk-27 is rather new to the situation. My understanding of the umiak position is: Kilk-27 is in charge of the fleets in the system (or a previous group commander was), was able to intercept the first loroi fleet, knew he was completing his mission (stopping the loroi raider fleets as Kilk-27 states), engaged and destroyed the second squadron and then confronted the 51st Strike Group (lost an attack wave). Kilk-27 them might have believed he lost the opportunity to destroy another loroi fleet (the 51st, Still-Storms), saw they have stopped and assume defensive stance around an usual wreckage, sent in probing wave of some force the see what the loroi were guarding and/or force them off. Saw the good defence and what they were guarding and has decided to try sometime Non-SOP. What the full Umiak plan is still up in the air ( as you so rightly state).

I like the Duplicitous and honest comment, it reminds me of a quote from Winston Churchill that truth must be surrounded/protected by lies. :shock:

this is another reason why i like Arioch's umiak, their go against the "dumb bug idea" ( side note: Starship Troopers was one of the other to "smart bug" stories that I know of).
Nemo wrote: And just because the ship wasn't built of unobtanium doesn't mean whoever made it doesn't have unobtanium. You could say the bar is no lower than X, but thats all. And who knows, the Umiak may not even have that capacity right now. These are one off disposable warships they're riding around in, scientific analyses of any substantial kind may not be possible. Either way, its piqued his interest and thats what matters.
hehe, I keep thinking outsider sensor are like Star Trek type sensors, able to analysis a variety of different elements on the fly ( dumb dumb = me). but I could see why anything new might peak both sides. The whole situation is extremely odd for both sides.
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by bunnyboy »

NOMAD wrote:hehe, I keep thinking outsider sensor are like Star Trek type sensors, able to analysis a variety of different elements on the fly ( dumb dumb = me).
Why? :shock: If I understand, we are capaple of measure major composition of atmosphere from planet in different star system.
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

bunnyboy wrote:
NOMAD wrote:hehe, I keep thinking outsider sensor are like Star Trek type sensors, able to analysis a variety of different elements on the fly ( dumb dumb = me).
Why? :shock: If I understand, we are capaple of measure major composition of atmosphere from planet in different star system.

With purpose built instruments, yes. What purpose would those instruments serve on a disposable warship? Nomad was just thinking "sensors" generally, and "sensors" in Star Trek especially can be used for anything and everything at any time, much like any other piece of tech in that universe. Warship "sensors" are going to be focused on locating objects in wide fields and tracking objects in narrow fields, radar/lidar optical telescopes infrared etc. Spectrometers and other such specialized gear doesn't help you kill people or blow stuff up. Even granting the Umiak this ability, though, doesn't much change the fact that knowing gross elemental composition of the wreck is a poor indicator for tech level.

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Trantor
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Trantor »

Nemo wrote:Even granting the Umiak this ability, though, doesn't much change the fact that knowing gross elemental composition of the wreck is a poor indicator for tech level.
Wouldn´t bet on that one.
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Karst45 »

Nemo wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:
NOMAD wrote:hehe, I keep thinking outsider sensor are like Star Trek type sensors, able to analysis a variety of different elements on the fly ( dumb dumb = me).
Why? :shock: If I understand, we are capaple of measure major composition of atmosphere from planet in different star system.

With purpose built instruments, yes. What purpose would those instruments serve on a disposable warship? Nomad was just thinking "sensors" generally, and "sensors" in Star Trek especially can be used for anything and everything at any time, much like any other piece of tech in that universe. Warship "sensors" are going to be focused on locating objects in wide fields and tracking objects in narrow fields, radar/lidar optical telescopes infrared etc. Spectrometers and other such specialized gear doesn't help you kill people or blow stuff up. Even granting the Umiak this ability, though, doesn't much change the fact that knowing gross elemental composition of the wreck is a poor indicator for tech level.
we are also talking about a ship about 500m long, surely with increase in technology, what we currently use now can be small enough and cheap enough to be fitted on a ship, just in case you need to scan a planets for ressources

If a truck cost 250 000 USD would you really care to put a 250$ device that could help you?

In my opinion, any large strike group should/must have a recon ship, and those ship usually trade weapon for speed, sensor and range

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

$250 a device matter? When your strategy involves sheer industrial output overwhelming the enemy? Absolutely. This is one place where the difference between military war time and civilian peace time thinking starts to show. You can see it with the American approach to Liberty ships and Sherman tanks in WW2, or the Soviets throughout the Cold War, or the Fighter Mafia in the US demanding smaller cheaper fighters without "gold plating" to compete with the Soviet numerical superiority. You see this problem a lot in US weapons programs, so long as you're spending hundreds of billions already what does it hurt to add just a few more tens of millions.


Granted, picket ships might easily have purpose built "sensors" to improve their task performance. Whats their task? Early warning identification and tracking of hostiles and communication of information to senior fleet assets. How does having a mass spectrometer help that? Like Nomad said, this is the difference between Star Trek "sensors" and specific instruments. A "sensor" is vague enough for you to allow it to be anything, do anything you need it to at any time.
Wouldn´t bet on that one.
Like I said before, you can say the tech level is no lower than X materials science, but you can not say X materials are their best science.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by NOMAD »

Nemo wrote:$250 a device matter? When your strategy involves sheer industrial output overwhelming the enemy? Absolutely. This is one place where the difference between military war time and civilian peace time thinking starts to show. You can see it with the American approach to Liberty ships and Sherman tanks in WW2, or the Soviets throughout the Cold War, or the Fighter Mafia in the US demanding smaller cheaper fighters without "gold plating" to compete with the Soviet numerical superiority. You see this problem a lot in US weapons programs, so long as you're spending hundreds of billions already what does it hurt to add just a few more tens of millions.
good point, but I would agree Karst45 and Trantor that a a race with 3-4 generations of tech advance over us would be able to miniaturize or at least have vast improvements or better technique over various sensor technologies that Humans in outsider have right now.

It must also be considers where the space ship are and what they have to detect. Now I agree, a warship will have sensors for detection/ranging/ tracking of enemy ships ( radar, lidar, heat/IR, thermo etc) plus a full military coms system. However in space, you have to deal with asteroids ( both large and micro), radiation spikes from suns and other hot bodies, gravity sensors and maybe quantum sensors for jumping from system to system. Even amongst these you could use spectral and element identification sensors to help Id different environmental condition ( say the composition of the proto-sun gas cloud) for tactical reason ( IE min sensor detection ranged) or even more intel reasons ( IE a new enemy ship type that is encountered )

Nemo wrote: Granted, picket ships might easily have purpose built "sensors" to improve their task performance. Whats their task? Early warning identification and tracking of hostiles and communication of information to senior fleet assets. How does having a mass spectrometer help that? Like Nomad said, this is the difference between Star Trek "sensors" and specific instruments. A "sensor" is vague enough for you to allow it to be anything, do anything you need it to at any time.

Well a picket ship could easily be a recon or smaller warships.To continue your WWII theme: the US navy used Destroyers and Destroyer escorts as picket against kamikaze aircraft in the pacific and in other picket area for carrier defence (hell even the foundered winter tide was on picket duty out of necessity). is terms of mass spec, it could help to Id different race ships ( as even a race with a simular tech level , I believe would have sightly different trace elements in their ships materials)
Wouldn´t bet on that one.
Nemo wrote:Like I said before, you can say the tech level is no lower than X materials science, but you can not say X materials are their best science.
well I IRCC that they did bring up a piece of the Titanic to study its steel, and it was found to have too much carbon, ( a way to tell between today and 1910's steel). That could be an indication of tech level ( as well as purity or amount of trace materials in a ship hull). Yet I would have to imagine they're many different way to tell a tech level from afar ( ship structure layout ( IE the # of beam for meter and/or shape via deep penetration scan and mass specs), propulsion/energy tech ( via heat and radiation types) ( given both the loroi and Umiak have reaction-less drives now, but what did they use before, Ion, fusion torch, impulse ??? each is unique). Weapon used and their performance (another way to tell tech level)

any other I forgot ?
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

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NOMAD wrote:any other I forgot ?
How about measure of gravitation. With right knowledge it can tell lot of good data, like density of enemy armor, placement of superdensity objects etc.
I know that Finnish Geodetic Institute is measuring changes in gravity by tidal waves, earthquages etc, but they have some precise equipment and if you stand next to it, they can tell your weight by how much it will increase earth's gravity pull.

By the way. I was just wondering why people always think of Star Trek, when they meet unexplainable high technology. :P
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Mjolnir »

NOMAD wrote:well I IRCC that they did bring up a piece of the Titanic to study its steel, and it was found to have too much carbon, ( a way to tell between today and 1910's steel). That could be an indication of tech level ( as well as purity or amount of trace materials in a ship hull). Yet I would have to imagine they're many different way to tell a tech level from afar ( ship structure layout ( IE the # of beam for meter and/or shape via deep penetration scan and mass specs), propulsion/energy tech ( via heat and radiation types) ( given both the loroi and Umiak have reaction-less drives now, but what did they use before, Ion, fusion torch, impulse ??? each is unique). Weapon used and their performance (another way to tell tech level)
Not carbon, sulfur, which made it relatively weak and brittle. It was substandard even for shipbuilding steel of the time.

But as Nemo said, gross composition of a ship isn't a good indicator of tech level. You see sulfur spectra...was that from the steel? The paint? A carbon fiber composite structure and a wooden structure are both mostly carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen. Was that puff of vapor from a complex metal-ceramic composite, or from a simple ceramic-clad metal structure? And were they using a particular material because it was the best they had, or because the alternatives were unusually hard for them to come by despite a comparable level of technological development? Or because even greater development in other areas compensated for the disadvantages? We could build practical spacecraft out of low grade steel if we built them using asteroids or the moon as a source of materials and propellant...the big, inefficient ship with its basic structure made out of crude materials could be a higher tech level vehicle than the lean, efficient one made out of exotic alloys and composites

I actually suspect ships will carry quite a bit of instrumentation for stuff like material identification, it being potentially very valuable intelligence in a long term war. However, I would be surprised if there were personnel to do the analysis in the fleet itself...we're talking about data that's taken home for specialists to comb over for useful information. And without a good level of familiarity with the target (as the Loroi and Umiak have with each other, and lack with humanity), the information might not mean nearly as much.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Mjolnir »

bunnyboy wrote:How about measure of gravitation. With right knowledge it can tell lot of good data, like density of enemy armor, placement of superdensity objects etc.
I know that Finnish Geodetic Institute is measuring changes in gravity by tidal waves, earthquages etc, but they have some precise equipment and if you stand next to it, they can tell your weight by how much it will increase earth's gravity pull.
You'd basically need the target to sit still while you go over it from every direction to get any useful density map. Gravity wave detectors might be useful for gleaning information about inertial damping and other artificial gravity systems, though.

bunnyboy wrote:By the way. I was just wondering why people always think of Star Trek, when they meet unexplainable high technology. :P
Well, practically every piece of high tech in Star Trek qualifies, and they've been regularly pumping out new TV series and movies.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:You'd basically need the target to sit still while you go over it from every direction to get any useful density map.
That´s what they basically did when they dashed past the Bell.
Mjolnir wrote:Well, practically every piece of high tech in Star Trek qualifies,
Maybe i´m just lost in translation, but to me it´s just stupid technobabble. :mrgreen:
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Mayhem »

bunnyboy wrote:
NOMAD wrote:any other I forgot ?
How about measure of gravitation. With right knowledge it can tell lot of good data, like density of enemy armor, placement of superdensity objects etc.
Somewhat less useful in an age of artificial gravity.
Particle beam cannons are mass drivers :D
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

Mjolnir wrote:I actually suspect ships will carry quite a bit of instrumentation for stuff like material identification, it being potentially very valuable intelligence in a long term war. However, I would be surprised if there were personnel to do the analysis in the fleet itself...we're talking about data that's taken home for specialists to comb over for useful information.
Spot on, and recall the Umiak are using disposable Kamikaze fleets. This intel would never make it back home even if the fleet did gather it. Devil's Advocate Exception: this is Tiky's group, and he is known for withdrawing when others would not.... maybe he is their intel guy?
Maybe i´m just lost in translation, but to me it´s just stupid technobabble.
Sounds like your English is better than the writer's then.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by NOMAD »

Mjolnir wrote:I actually suspect ships will carry quite a bit of instrumentation for stuff like material identification, it being potentially very valuable intelligence in a long term war. However, I would be surprised if there were personnel to do the analysis in the fleet itself...we're talking about data that's taken home for specialists to comb over for useful information.
:o OK :( didn't ponder about that, yet you could still get some info so I guess having a scout ship in your fleet might get some results. however, but I would still figure that Warship would need space environment sensors to detect some of the hazards in space.
Nemo wrote: Spot on, and recall the Umiak are using disposable Kamikaze fleets. This intel would never make it back home even if the fleet did gather it. Devil's Advocate Exception: this is Tiky's group, and he is known for withdrawing when others would not.... maybe he is their intel guy?
maybe, we don't know anything about umiak military organization. I would guess their is an intel division. maybe kilk-27 is linked to them, who knows
Nemo wrote:
Maybe i´m just lost in translation, but to me it´s just stupid technobabble.
Sounds like your English is better than the writer's then.
I've got a book on the enterprise-D and alot fo tech is base on real principles, and possible techs, yet there alot of the higher ideas that don't have a proper understanding ( or explanation)
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Trantor »

Nemo wrote:
Maybe i´m just lost in translation, but to me it´s just stupid technobabble.
Sounds like your English is better than the writer's then.
If you feel uncomfortable with that, you´re always welcome to switch to my language.

:mrgreen:
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