Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

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Zakharra
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Zakharra »

fredgiblet wrote:
JQBogus wrote:The Romans were probably only down one tech generation at most. Humanity in this story is down 2 or 3. And it is a naval war, rather than a land one, which means tech is all that much more important.

I think the difference is more like the modern US Navy vs the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1905. Sure, if the US navy stumbles within 10,000 yards it can get hurt, but odds are pretty stacked against that happening.
Oh of course, I'm not suggesting that the hairless pink apes are going to conquer the universe through their own ships, I'm just making the point that technology isn't everything. Presumably at some point Alex is going to do something important for the war effort in the story,m and it's probably not going to be related to technology or fisticuffs.

Right now the only apparent use Humanity has tothe Loroi is its position in the Galactic landscape. Humanity offers a backdoor into Umiak space, with a moderately developed industrial base that can be used for support.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I watched "The Battle of the Bulge," and everyone just couldn't stop talking about getting to the fuel depot. If humans can produce fuel that Loroi ships can use, that alone will make them a valuable ally. (This impertinent movie reference was brought to you in a joint venture by icekatze and the AMC channel.)

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Absalom »

JQBogus wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:Or as in the case of the Romans, win against foes with superior skills and weapons by virtue of vastly superior tactics and strategy. Technology isn't everything.

The Romans were probably only down one tech generation at most. Humanity in this story is down 2 or 3. And it is a naval war, rather than a land one, which means tech is all that much more important.

I think the difference is more like the modern US Navy vs the Imperial Japanese Navy of 1905. Sure, if the US navy stumbles within 10,000 yards it can get hurt, but odds are pretty stacked against that happening.
Actually, the Romans quite reliably hired mercenaries, so they probably weren't even down a generation in terms of their neighbors. We tend to focus on the Legions, but apparently something like half of Roman units were "Auxiliaries" of multiple combatant types, and apparently those units were often more effective than the legions.

A big thing that the Romans did have was fairly standardized fort designs. Apparently a legion could usually get one setup over the course of a few hours, while under attack. I would assume that most of their enemies didn't have this, and the ones that either did, or fought them in areas where they couldn't construct them effectively (e.g. areas without trees), were likely to be (in a strategic sense) their most difficult opponents.
icekatze wrote:hi hi

I watched "The Battle of the Bulge," and everyone just couldn't stop talking about getting to the fuel depot. If humans can produce fuel that Loroi ships can use, that alone will make them a valuable ally. (This impertinent movie reference was brought to you in a joint venture by icekatze and the AMC channel.)
This, I think, is the real way that Humanity possesses a strategic position: we're way off in the general direction that the expansion efforts are moving (or at least the direction that the front is moving), which means that we approximately hold the same position as Britain or the Philippines in WW2. If you get us, then you get a general-purpose base of operations. If you don't have us, then operating in that general area is much the same as a German WW2 U-boat attacking western Atlantic shipping. You can do it, but you're going to have serious supply problems. To the best of my memory the Umiak are fairly close to one entrance to a navigable loop, while Humanity is close to the other end of the same loop, so that adds to the strategic situation: if the Loroi can get the TCA to provide fuel capabilities, then they can start a program of recruiting allies in the Tunnel quite some time before the Umiak get to them. Especially the combination of Historian tech sales, + Humanity and/or Barsam diplomats, + Loroi Mizol "attachés", could pose a quite formidable diplomatic "task force". Add a semi-autonomous fusion "mobile starbase" with attendant Historian, Barsam, and Loroi courier vessels, and you might be able to get most (or all) of the Loop on your side before the Umiak had a chance to start invading them in earnest.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by discord »

actually there are two points of technological interest that pops up in my mind, long term is our R&D which is pretty damned fast, short term is computers and the usage of them, we are crazy good at that.

just think about it, the performance increase of our computers is so bloody fast that it is economically a bad idea to spend the time optimizing code, because pretty much the weeks it takes to do it the basic speed of the available hardware increases about as much as the increase in efficiency the optimization would give you, it's frickin crazy.

although in reality both sides are true, optimized code can be crazy effective, but the problem is we keep changing things so the more you optimize it the less future stable it gets, usually.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by fredgiblet »

Zakharra wrote:Right now the only apparent use Humanity has tothe Loroi is its position in the Galactic landscape. Humanity offers a backdoor into Umiak space, with a moderately developed industrial base that can be used for support.
icekatze wrote:I watched "The Battle of the Bulge," and everyone just couldn't stop talking about getting to the fuel depot. If humans can produce fuel that Loroi ships can use, that alone will make them a valuable ally. (This impertinent movie reference was brought to you in a joint venture by icekatze and the AMC channel.)
That's basically how I think the Loroi will see us, a resupply depot with ready labor on hand. They won't need to bring a storage facility, we can make it for them, we can't make most of what's IN it, yet, but that's fine, just making the facility makes it a lot easier. We can handle non-sensitive jobs like janitor and cook at the resupply bases, maybe even perimeter guard if they trust us. We can provide food, they may not LIKE it, but they can probably eat it. We can provide electricity and basic hulls patches that will at least keep damaged ships viable until they can get to a repair center.

None of this is stupendously valuable, but it's enough to make us worthwhile even without our special properties.
discord wrote:actually there are two points of technological interest that pops up in my mind, long term is our R&D which is pretty damned fast, short term is computers and the usage of them, we are crazy good at that.

just think about it, the performance increase of our computers is so bloody fast that it is economically a bad idea to spend the time optimizing code, because pretty much the weeks it takes to do it the basic speed of the available hardware increases about as much as the increase in efficiency the optimization would give you, it's frickin crazy.

although in reality both sides are true, optimized code can be crazy effective, but the problem is we keep changing things so the more you optimize it the less future stable it gets, usually.
When I'm laying awake at night, unable to fall asleep, sometimes I spend my time imagining AUs to fiction. One of those has us being the universe's hackers, including Alex getting the the bridge and having his computer (what we would refer to as a phone) beep at him, then having the uncomfortable explanation of his phone now controls half the Loroi fleet because he left it's ICE on "aggressive". Unrealistic? Sure, but funny.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Hālian »

LOL

Extra points if his phone's operating system is SHODAN :mrgreen:
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Zakharra
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Zakharra »

fredgiblet wrote:
Zakharra wrote:Right now the only apparent use Humanity has tothe Loroi is its position in the Galactic landscape. Humanity offers a backdoor into Umiak space, with a moderately developed industrial base that can be used for support.
icekatze wrote:I watched "The Battle of the Bulge," and everyone just couldn't stop talking about getting to the fuel depot. If humans can produce fuel that Loroi ships can use, that alone will make them a valuable ally. (This impertinent movie reference was brought to you in a joint venture by icekatze and the AMC channel.)
That's basically how I think the Loroi will see us, a resupply depot with ready labor on hand. They won't need to bring a storage facility, we can make it for them, we can't make most of what's IN it, yet, but that's fine, just making the facility makes it a lot easier. We can handle non-sensitive jobs like janitor and cook at the resupply bases, maybe even perimeter guard if they trust us. We can provide food, they may not LIKE it, but they can probably eat it. We can provide electricity and basic hulls patches that will at least keep damaged ships viable until they can get to a repair center.

None of this is stupendously valuable, but it's enough to make us worthwhile even without our special properties.

I wouldn't say our tech base is capable of making machines they can use. As it has been pointed out, humanity is at least one full tech level, possibly two, below the Loroi and Umaiaks and I think even more below the Historians. That limits out capacity in the short run. But it would be possible to bring in a few repair/refueling replenishment ships and tech teams to upgrade select parts of the human industrial capacity. Fuel is one, maybe a place for R&R too, unless the Loroi are superwomen, even they need some time off to relax and recharge their batteries. Some weapons plants upgrades and I bet it would not take long to for us to be able to be making hulls and material compatible with the Loroi ships. Basically turn us into a growing supply depot. For humanity to be an effective base, they would have to give us access to some of their tech so we can make stuff for them.

If the Loroi might feel somewhat antsy at letting us have access to their tech, I think they'd feel that because they have a much larger fleet, they could crush us fairly easily if they wanted/had to. And realistically, they could. It's what happens after the war that is important to humanity.



discord wrote:actually there are two points of technological interest that pops up in my mind, long term is our R&D which is pretty damned fast, short term is computers and the usage of them, we are crazy good at that.
I'm not sure if this point has been brought up or not, but humans can invent and improvise damned quick. Look at how military equipment advanced from the start of WWII and at the end of it. Compare how fast our tech has advanced in just a century. In just over 100 years we've gone from slow as snails prop powered kites to rockets, mechanical calculators to hand held computers capable of accessing almost anything from anywhere in the world, highly computerized everything. Tech advances seem to come in surges, but when it goes, the advances are bloody fast. Humanity could very well take some pieces of Loroi tech and run with it in ways that astound, shock and worry them, and everyone else.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by cacambo43 »

The story so far suggests that Humanity's potential contribution to the Loroi is intimately connected to its immunity to Sanzi and perhaps its ability to block it. This might say something about Humanity's place in the Galactic History. A more bold (and less certain) possibility is the Humanity are (or are of the closest lineage to) the Soia.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Absalom »

Zakharra wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:That's basically how I think the Loroi will see us, a resupply depot with ready labor on hand. They won't need to bring a storage facility, we can make it for them, we can't make most of what's IN it, yet, but that's fine, just making the facility makes it a lot easier. We can handle non-sensitive jobs like janitor and cook at the resupply bases, maybe even perimeter guard if they trust us. We can provide food, they may not LIKE it, but they can probably eat it. We can provide electricity and basic hulls patches that will at least keep damaged ships viable until they can get to a repair center.

None of this is stupendously valuable, but it's enough to make us worthwhile even without our special properties.

I wouldn't say our tech base is capable of making machines they can use.
We can't make ships that can stand up in a fire fight, but that's not all that the Loroi need. A Loroi fusion-powered fuel facility could have it's material resupply needs mostly or entirely provided by Human cargo ships. And Humanity can build those.

For reference, a "basic hull patch" in this case would not be armor, it would be an over-glorified tarp (probably made out of sheet metal instead of foil, but a cheap "tarp" in this context none the less...) to keep the air in.
Zakharra wrote:As it has been pointed out, humanity is at least one full tech level, possibly two, below the Loroi and Umaiaks and I think even more below the Historians. That limits out capacity in the short run. But it would be possible to bring in a few repair/refueling replenishment ships and tech teams to upgrade select parts of the human industrial capacity.
The nice thing about the location of Humanity in relation to the Umiak and Loroi is that we don't even need actual upgrades to be of use for either of the sides, just a fusion-powered fuel production unit with the staff to run and maintain it, and the construction of some more Human tanker vessels so that a Human supply train can reach both the choosen ally, and the fuel unit.


Really, with the location of Humanity, matters of tech level devolve down to how difficult it is to convert existing infrastructure technologies to be fusion-powered, because that's all that needs to be done for us to be of value to either of the combatants. We're an oasis in a desert with plenty of potential to increase the amount of supplies we can provide for basics like bulk materials. We're an automatic and quick improvement for whoever gets us.

cacambo43 wrote:The story so far suggests that Humanity's potential contribution to the Loroi is intimately connected to its immunity to Sanzi and perhaps its ability to block it. This might say something about Humanity's place in the Galactic History. A more bold (and less certain) possibility is the Humanity are (or are of the closest lineage to) the Soia.
Just as likely for the Nebiren to be the Soia. Maybe the moon of Maia was inspired by ours, though, in which case presumably both the Soia and the Dreiman got close enough to Sol to analyze the relation between the Earth and the Moon. Maybe the Dreiman thought "If it was just a little bit bigger, we could add an atmosphere. Hmm."

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Zakharra »

Absalom wrote:
Zakharra wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:That's basically how I think the Loroi will see us, a resupply depot with ready labor on hand. They won't need to bring a storage facility, we can make it for them, we can't make most of what's IN it, yet, but that's fine, just making the facility makes it a lot easier. We can handle non-sensitive jobs like janitor and cook at the resupply bases, maybe even perimeter guard if they trust us. We can provide food, they may not LIKE it, but they can probably eat it. We can provide electricity and basic hulls patches that will at least keep damaged ships viable until they can get to a repair center.

None of this is stupendously valuable, but it's enough to make us worthwhile even without our special properties.

I wouldn't say our tech base is capable of making machines they can use.
We can't make ships that can stand up in a fire fight, but that's not all that the Loroi need. A Loroi fusion-powered fuel facility could have it's material resupply needs mostly or entirely provided by Human cargo ships. And Humanity can build those.

For reference, a "basic hull patch" in this case would not be armor, it would be an over-glorified tarp (probably made out of sheet metal instead of foil, but a cheap "tarp" in this context none the less...) to keep the air in.
I meant us being used as a resupply and maintenance depot. That means being able to repair battle damage. And if we're given a sufficient upgrade, humanity could build the ship hulls and the Loroi just bring in the electronics and engines to slap into the ship, tweak for efficiency and you got new shipyards.

Zakharra wrote:As it has been pointed out, humanity is at least one full tech level, possibly two, below the Loroi and Umaiaks and I think even more below the Historians. That limits out capacity in the short run. But it would be possible to bring in a few repair/refueling replenishment ships and tech teams to upgrade select parts of the human industrial capacity.
The nice thing about the location of Humanity in relation to the Umiak and Loroi is that we don't even need actual upgrades to be of use for either of the sides, just a fusion-powered fuel production unit with the staff to run and maintain it, and the construction of some more Human tanker vessels so that a Human supply train can reach both the choosen ally, and the fuel unit.


Really, with the location of Humanity, matters of tech level devolve down to how difficult it is to convert existing infrastructure technologies to be fusion-powered, because that's all that needs to be done for us to be of value to either of the combatants. We're an oasis in a desert with plenty of potential to increase the amount of supplies we can provide for basics like bulk materials. We're an automatic and quick improvement for whoever gets us.
That is assuming that the Loroi will maintain the fusion units themselves. I am sure there's some slight difference in quality or type of fuel used, but it is really more than that. Overall though, you're suggesting what I was. Humanity being used mainly as a supply and refitting depot since our military tech isn't up to snuff to fight yet. Given time we could offer more in the military aspect. Even if the war turns in the Loroi's favor, the two empires are huge, especially the Umaik one, and it should take many years to reduce them to a level the Loroi feel safe with. That's more than enough time for some human crewed warships to be serving with the Loroi.

Hell, the Loroi might just decide to hand off some of their older more obsolete warships as system defense vessels for humans, and we take them apart to examine them and run with what we find in ways that could astound them. This could also redo how the human nations regard each other. Mars is likely going to be building a LOT of ships soon no matter what. They could end up with a lot of power due to their shipyards and manufacturing facilities.

That's also why I was saying what happens after the war is going to be very important too. Humanity is dangerous to the Loroi because they have no way of detecting humans or their ships unless they use actual shipboard sensors. If they let us get tech sufficient to fight them in space, they would have to ensure that they always have the top dog position over humanity or wipe us out.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by discord »

zak: interestingly enough on a military scale, humans are actually useful in a purely military way too, and BECAUSE of the psychic invisibility, how you say?

because we could be running around in the steppes without cluttering the area with lots of signals, a single farseer/patrol squad and it's all good, perfect radar horizon with minimal clutter.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Jericho »

Zakharra wrote:
That's also why I was saying what happens after the war is going to be very important too. Humanity is dangerous to the Loroi because they have no way of detecting humans or their ships unless they use actual shipboard sensors. If they let us get tech sufficient to fight them in space, they would have to ensure that they always have the top dog position over humanity or wipe us out.
Funny enough that you should mention that. I remember when i first joined up having a similar discussion resulting in a thread being closed.

Ahh... nostalgia :) .
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Zakharra »

discord wrote:zak: interestingly enough on a military scale, humans are actually useful in a purely military way too, and BECAUSE of the psychic invisibility, how you say?

because we could be running around in the steppes without cluttering the area with lots of signals, a single farseer/patrol squad and it's all good, perfect radar horizon with minimal clutter.

Ummm. No. We're pretty worthless to the Loroi in that sense and far more of a danger. I'm not sure why people keep making this mistake. The psychic invisibility is only useful used against the Loroi. The Umaik have no such mental abilities and would use normal sensors like everyone else. If humanity was on the Umaik side, we'd be an invaluable weapon since they wouldn't be able to sense us coming and it would mess with the Loroi's ability to farsee any attacks. That's why I have said that humanity is such a danger to the Loroi, they literally cannot see or sense any humans anywhere, not even humans that are right in front of them. That has to be driving the Loroi scientists and sensor techs (and the farseers on the fleet's ships) absolutely nuts.

For the idea of us running around being invisible to the Loroi and not messing up their farseers scans, I am assuming that they are well trained enough to be able to filter out and ignore the mental interference of the Loroi and other aliens in and on the ships around them.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Absalom »

Zakharra wrote:
discord wrote:zak: interestingly enough on a military scale, humans are actually useful in a purely military way too, and BECAUSE of the psychic invisibility, how you say?

because we could be running around in the steppes without cluttering the area with lots of signals, a single farseer/patrol squad and it's all good, perfect radar horizon with minimal clutter.

Ummm. No. We're pretty worthless to the Loroi in that sense and far more of a danger. I'm not sure why people keep making this mistake. The psychic invisibility is only useful used against the Loroi. The Umaik have no such mental abilities and would use normal sensors like everyone else. If humanity was on the Umaik side, we'd be an invaluable weapon since they wouldn't be able to sense us coming and it would mess with the Loroi's ability to farsee any attacks. That's why I have said that humanity is such a danger to the Loroi, they literally cannot see or sense any humans anywhere, not even humans that are right in front of them. That has to be driving the Loroi scientists and sensor techs (and the farseers on the fleet's ships) absolutely nuts.

For the idea of us running around being invisible to the Loroi and not messing up their farseers scans, I am assuming that they are well trained enough to be able to filter out and ignore the mental interference of the Loroi and other aliens in and on the ships around them.
The Loroi wouldn't find it useful because the Umiak couldn't detect us, the Loroi would find it useful because we wouldn't clutter the far-sense of their Farseers. Visibility via Farsight (or rather Sanzai, if I'm remembering the word right) is the same as causing noise to it. By having a large amount of non-visibles staffing your ships, you can reduce the noise, thereby increasing the accuracy of the Farseers. One of the big problems with the war is that the non-charred worlds are full of population, which can and does interfere with the clarity that Farseers have. Still, I'm dubious about the usefulness of this in the current war, unless Farseers wind up assigned Human attendants so that they can be present without their thoughts about what to eat for lunch breaking the Farseer's focus.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by discord »

absalom: pretty much, yes, but also background noise, i think inverse square law still applies, therefor a source of noise nearby is a hell of a lot louder as compared to one a few light years away, humans are DEAD silent to a loroi, that is removing annoying clutter.

and filtering? probably already doing that, filtering out nearby 'clutter' to see whats beyond....probably very taxing, and probably the main reason why farseers on deployment burn out.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Zakharra »

Absalom wrote:The Loroi wouldn't find it useful because the Umiak couldn't detect us, the Loroi would find it useful because we wouldn't clutter the far-sense of their Farseers. Visibility via Farsight (or rather Sanzai, if I'm remembering the word right) is the same as causing noise to it. By having a large amount of non-visibles staffing your ships, you can reduce the noise, thereby increasing the accuracy of the Farseers. One of the big problems with the war is that the non-charred worlds are full of population, which can and does interfere with the clarity that Farseers have. Still, I'm dubious about the usefulness of this in the current war, unless Farseers wind up assigned Human attendants so that they can be present without their thoughts about what to eat for lunch breaking the Farseer's focus.

One human crewed ship in a fleet of Loroi isn't going to be much use, there's still going to be a lot of background noise. Unless it's one or several Loroi on all human crewed fleets, there's always going to be that noise from the fleet itself.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by discord »

zak: true, might make the farseer burnout less rapidly, but yes not really useful, human FLEETS(with a single farseer each) roaming around there however might...not gonna happen anytime soon due to trust issues but still.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Image I am just well posting this for any input the shield generators are on the side, oddly I designed these ships ages ago and they share anatomical structures with the Loroi boats

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Hālian »

Image

The ships in question.
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Yes that is a frigate of mine like Loroi ships the reactors and warp drives are kept in the nacelle

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