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[Some Useless Geek]

For all of you who are arguing against my science, I suggest you go to Google. Look for [ansible] or ["superluminal events"] or something similar. There is already scientific fact to back up what I'm talking about. Some of the exotic particle detection stuff I mentioned I learned while doing a gig out at Fermilab, and that was over ten years ago. There must have been some progress since then.

This is Arioch's 'verse, his story, his comic, and his board. He can choose to use whatever suspension of disbelief he thinks is appropriate. At some point, though, said suspension of disbelief becomes thick enough to break under its own weight. I am willing to let this point slide because the story seems to be developing better without the intrusion of superluminal detection and knowledge of enemies' dispositions. Hopefully, this won't end up being some kind of anti-Deus Ex Machina that makes the story too difficult to believe. Eh?

[starstriker1]

While I don't have a particularily strong background in cutting-edge physics, I was under the impression that the only faster than light phenomena we are currently aware of do not actually transmit information, and anything that CAN transmit information in an FTL manner would break a lot of our current models and assumptions. Wikipedia would seem to back that interpretation up.

As for Umiak spying: there's actually a relatively easy way to get information past the steppes without the Loroi getting wise to it: send it in an unmanned drone. It's expensive, but feasible: you launch the drone from a system in/near Loroi space where it is unlikely to be detected (like one of the many, many intermediate star systems between anywhere of consequence, perhaps on the pretense of being on a trade route) then have it split off and attempt to traverse the Steppes.

It still runs a fairly high chance of getting spotted and captured/destroyed... any Loroi patrol that happens across it will likely move to intercept. There's also the possibility that any drop-off points that aren't being watched are simply too far from the front lines for a drone to be able to make the trip. Depending on exactly how thorough the Loroi interstellar patrols are, it may be completely impractical... but it's certainly food for thought.

Actually, one very real possibility could be the use of no-mans land between Loroi allies (like the Nissek and Historians) as the drop off, where the Loroi would presumably have less oversight, or even coopt a patrol ship with bribes/violence so that the package could be delivered without anyone making note of it.

[Mjolnir]

For all of you who are arguing against my science, I suggest you go to Google. Look for [ansible] or ["superluminal events"] or something similar.

Ansibles are a generic FTL sci-fi plot device, a term coined by Ursula K. Le Guin and used by others like Orson Scott Card. And I habitually look into the various reports of FTL phenomena, since it is an interesting subject for rather obvious reasons.

There is already scientific fact to back up what I'm talking about. Some of the exotic particle detection stuff I mentioned I learned while doing a gig out at Fermilab, and that was over ten years ago. There must have been some progress since then.

Scientific fact is that there are no known phenomena capable of transmitting information faster than light. No known FTL particles. Nothing from Fermilab, nothing from CERN, nothing from anywhere else.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I searched for ansible on google:

An ansible is a hypothetical machine capable of instantaneous or superluminal communication. Ansibles occur as plot devices in science fiction literature.

There is no currently known way to build an ansible. The theory of special relativity predicts that any such device would allow communication from the future to the past, which raises problems of causality, unless the device used general relativistic curved spacetimes as an integral part.
Quantum nonlocality is often proposed as a mechanism for superluminal communication. A 2008 quantum physics experiment performed in Geneva, Switzerland has determined that in any hypothetical nonlocal hidden-variables theory the speed of the quantum non-local connection would have to be at least 10,000 times the speed of light. Practical applications are made impossible due to the no-cloning theorem, and the fact that quantum field theories preserve causality, so that quantum correlations cannot be used to transfer information.

I searched for superluminal events on google:
I found the following PDF

Quantum Entanglement and the nonexistence of Superluminal Signals
Michael D. Westmoreland, Benjami Schumacher
Department of Mathematical Sciences, Denison University, Granville, OH 43023 USA
Department of Physics, Kenyon College, Gambier, OH 43022 USA
Abstract
This paper shows that ordinary quantum mechanics is not consistent with the superluminal transmission of classical information.

All of the above may not actually be relevant to the conversation, since the main sticking point is the necessity of FTL events rather than their possibility.

In Outsider-verse, once something goes FTL it comes out the other side pretty much instantly, and hyperspace is a tricky place where things don't always end up where they're supposed to. it is entirely possible that all naturally occurring FTL events exhausted themselves instantly during the creation of the universe. Anyway, I think there's enough wiggle room that we can take Arioch's claim that there are no FTL telescopes at face value.

[fredgiblet]

For all of you who are arguing against my science, I suggest you go to Google. Look for [ansible] or ["superluminal events"] or something similar.

I'll note for the record that I'm not arguing against your science, partially because I'm lazy partially since you haven't actually provided any. I'll also note that there's very few things less convincing than "the information is out there but I can't get it for you, you'll have to prove me right yourselves." Though it's largely a moot point anyway, even if you proved that there are FTL particles that we can detect there's still an abundance of simple ways to render that information useless as I pointed out earlier.

[Cy83r]

bah, FTL travel alone is apparently a ridiculous notion according to a few friends who are able to devour information on the subject. I recall a discussion about, and forgive me if I muddle this recounting, the concepts are still alien to me, a vessel traveling at superluminal speeds to a destonation and then returning to the departure point at a time previous to its trip.

Of course, the above effect relies on, and I highly paraphrase the following "rotating [the ship's] light-cone... ...perpendicular..." before returning home. Now, from what I understand of basic physics, light-cones don't rotate off of their central axis because that central axis represents time and the distance from that axis is equal to the photon's expected velocity directly away from the originating event within a virtual vacuum.

Can anyone explain how you rotate a light-cone off the time-axis to achieve effective time travel?


And as far as my layman's understanding of the physics will allow, Arioch's version of hyperspace seems to work like the lovechild of a wormhole and a self-forging projectile. The transit space of the wormhole being formed ad hoc as the ship passes through whatever amounts to extradimensional space, rather than forming the whole passage, exit and entry all prior to the jump. Or perhaps the wormhole formation, transit, and decay occur so fast as to seem like the passage was 'formed as needed'.

[Mjolnir]

http://sheol.org/throopw/tachyon-pistols.html

A quick summary of the issue: because of time dilation, global simultaneity doesn't exist. There is no one "now'. What one person would see as a FTL message being sent to their "now" at a distant point, another would see as a message sent to their past, and if they echo it to what they see as their present, it'll reach its sender before they sent it.

And this is all an end result of time dilation. Which is quite thoroughly verified...it's measured reality, not theory. It's not known with certainty that FTL transmission of information is impossible, but it is known with certainty that it would allow violations of causality, and it is generally believed that this can not happen...that it's mathematical nonsense caused by putting in garbage values for velocity. Discovery of a real FTL effect would disprove this, which is why there's been so much hunting for such a thing, but nothing's been found yet, and that isn't expected to change.

As for rotating light cones, it's more about rotating one's future out of one's light cone. Like ships hopping to a system that the light they're emitting now won't reach for years.

[Trantor]

Kiki's laughter might have been upon hearing Alex's epitaph

Are you sure they (Umiak) could hear or see him on the transmission? Would the Loroi be that stupid to let that happen?

[fredgiblet]

I doubt the Loroi have much experience in filtering audio transmissions from their own ships. That being said I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the Umiak would get anything solid out of hearing Alex.

[NOMAD]

I doubt the Loroi have much experience in filtering audio transmissions from their own ships. That being said I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the Umiak would get anything solid out of hearing Alex.

Agreement with Fred,

I don't think so, that would would tip off the Loroi hand that they pick up a survivor.

[Grayhome]

I'll tell you what they do have though, footage of a Loroi Vessel destroying the wreckage of a Terran scout ship's wreck.

[CHT-CHT-CHT] Indeed my friend

[CHT-CHT-CHT] Indeed

[Trantor]

I doubt the Loroi have much experience in filtering audio transmissions from their own ships. That being said I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the Umiak would get anything solid out of hearing Alex.

But he had no microphone, and he was sitting in the background. Assuming Stillstorm had a personal mic it could have toned down enough to not let Kikitik hear Alex.

[icekatze]

hi hi

That is a very clever idea Greyhome. If the Umiak were trying to get the cooperation of humanity, footage of the Loroi destroying one of humanity's scout vessels might seem very damning to the Loroi.

[NOMAD]

hi hi

That is a very clever idea Greyhome. If the Umiak were trying to get the cooperation of humanity, footage of the Loroi destroying one of humanity's scout vessels might seem very damning to the Loroi.

it would only be useful, if Umiak find another TCA scout and get into contact with the fuel tanker at the contact point. That would allow the Umiak to influence the terrains to their side. However, the loroi could also provide their own footage and info on the Bell's destruction. Now, that might not be fully creditable, given how the TCA command reacts to the bell's outright destruction, but it might help the Loroi balance out any the Umiak "evidence".

[Count Casimir]

hi hi

That is a very clever idea Greyhome. If the Umiak were trying to get the cooperation of humanity, footage of the Loroi destroying one of humanity's scout vessels might seem very damning to the Loroi.

it would only be useful, if Umiak find another TCA scout and get into contact with the fuel tanker at the contact point. That would allow the Umiak to influence the terrains to their side. However, the loroi could also provide their own footage and info on the Bell's destruction. Now, that might not be fully creditable, given how the TCA command reacts to the bell's outright destruction, but it might help the Loroi balance out any the Umiak "evidence".

Well, everything would depend pretty highly on a certain ensign's testimony.

[Cy83r]

because of time dilation, global simultaneity doesn't exist. There is no one "now'.

See, I never understood this concept. I understand that certain things happen at certain rates, and that those rates change based on the acceleration the changing medium experiences, but it never made sense to me why the altering of perception imposed an alteration on objective reality. The whole idea that by traveling faster than light allows something to subvert time-space is entirely baffling. It's like the whole plot device of super man flying anti-spinward around the earth really fast lets him go back in time and vice versa. As far as I understand what I read, time dilation is a problem of process but not existence, I don't see the sense in a lack of global simultaneity.

Also, I'm in the process of reading your link, I will amend later

There is also a problem with your linked article that invalidates the entire argument as the author puts it: duelists A and B are both providing their own impulse away from each other at the same measured velocity. That is to say, they are both moving from any frame of reference. The proper argument would have had A and B meet, disagree, and then duel on the drift. However, if one invalidates simultaneity in near-light instances in this way, our probes to Mars probably shouldn't have hit their targets; at all. Except for the fact that solar gravitation provides constant predictable acceleration to all bodies, rendering any arguments of relative motion a moot point.

Extrapolating from this, all of the universe is influenced by the gravitation from all other objects no matter how minute or distant the force being applied, so it may be said that all objects are always under acceleration. Don't ask me how this applies to to FTL and time travel, but I have a sinking suspicion that it renders arguments about relative motion and alternate perspectives a harder case to make, but then I can't get my head around the math yet.

Is it just me or do I sound smug? I apologize if I come across as a jerk, I'm just not so good at physics, so forgive my accusatory line of questioning.

Ah, wait, is it possible, even though we know how fast duelists A and B are accelerating under their own power, that A or B could still look at himself as stationary? After all, from the relative standpoint, A's/B's propellant is traveling away from him at half the velocity B/A is accelerating, throwing his own propellant into a stationary... no, no, that won't work... if that is the case, then A's/B's propellant or some other force external to the duelists is acting on the propellant and duelists, causing them to act strangely, which may or may not invalidate the author's argument anyways.

[Mjolnir]

See, I never understood this concept. I understand that certain things happen at certain rates, and that those rates change based on the acceleration the changing medium experiences, but it never made sense to me why the altering of perception imposed an alteration on objective reality. The whole idea that by traveling faster than light allows something to subvert time-space is entirely baffling. It's like the whole plot device of super man flying anti-spinward around the earth really fast lets him go back in time and vice versa. As far as I understand what I read, time dilation is a problem of process but not existence, I don't see the sense in a lack of global simultaneity.

It's not just acceleration but also relative velocity, there's no medium involved, and time dilation isn't an issue of perception. Two people can take different paths through spacetime and meet again after experiencing different amounts of time. This has been verified by experiment, and in fact must be dealt with constantly to synchronize atomic clocks across the world and in orbit. Given an event taking place in a time and place such that two observers in different inertial frames both will agree on its time, there's an infinite number of inertial frames from which a third observer would disagree on when it occurred. Since there's no reason to prefer any one of those frames over the others, there's no global simultaneity.

There is also a problem with your linked article that invalidates the entire argument as the author puts it: duelists A and B are both providing their own impulse away from each other at the same measured velocity. That is to say, they are both moving from any frame of reference. The proper argument would have had A and B meet, disagree, and then duel on the drift. However, if one invalidates simultaneity in near-light instances in this way, our probes to Mars probably shouldn't have hit their targets; at all. Except for the fact that solar gravitation provides constant predictable acceleration to all bodies, rendering any arguments of relative motion a moot point.

There's nothing to break the symmetry, and they each end up getting shot by the other before shooting the other. That's nonsense, but not an invalidation of the argument, it's part of why FTL transmission of information is expected to be impossible...it leads to nonsensical results when combined with effects that are now rather easily observed to be real.

Extrapolating from this, all of the universe is influenced by the gravitation from all other objects no matter how minute or distant the force being applied, so it may be said that all objects are always under acceleration. Don't ask me how this applies to to FTL and time travel, but I have a sinking suspicion that it renders arguments about relative motion and alternate perspectives a harder case to make, but then I can't get my head around the math yet.

Such effects are negligible for almost all purposes. The acceleration due to the gravitational field of the galaxy is essentially completely uniform over our solar system, and very small in magnitude...it takes 200-300 million years to pull our sun around full circle, letting it fall along an orbit 52000 light years across.

[Mjolnir]

Ah, wait, is it possible, even though we know how fast duelists A and B are accelerating under their own power, that A or B could still look at himself as stationary? After all, from the relative standpoint, A's/B's propellant is traveling away from him at half the velocity B/A is accelerating, throwing his own propellant into a stationary... no, no, that won't work... if that is the case, then A's/B's propellant or some other force external to the duelists is acting on the propellant and duelists, causing them to act strangely, which may or may not invalidate the author's argument anyways.

While accelerating, they are not in an inertial frame of reference. After stopping their acceleration, they are, and each can consider himself at rest. Propellant is irrelevant, it doesn't have to go anywhere near the duelists and doesn't even have to exist in the first place...they could accelerate in perpendicular directions, or you could shoot them in opposite directions from a mass driver.

[Cy83r]

It's not just acceleration but also relative velocity, there's no medium involved, and time dilation isn't an issue of perception. Two people can take different paths through spacetime and meet again after experiencing different amounts of time. This has been verified by experiment, and in fact must be dealt with constantly to synchronize atomic clocks across the world and in orbit. Given an event taking place in a time and place such that two observers in different inertial frames both will agree on its time, there's an infinite number of inertial frames from which a third observer would disagree on when it occurred. Since there's no reason to prefer any one of those frames over the others, there's no global simultaneity.

They can also meet after experiencing different amounts of space but the same amount of time. Don't ask me what I mean by that.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Also, if I'm not mistaken, changes in gravity propagate at the speed of light. I know nobody has yet found a graviton, but I think someone was able to measure the lag at least.

One counter-example is worth 1000 examples when you're dealing with confirmation bias.