Page 91

[TheUnforsaken]

Another question, given Loroi cultural values would they even build massive arrays to detect possible alien signals? They have historically relied on their physiology to detect the presence of alien species so would they even see a need to gather ancient messages from alien civilizations?

Furthermore, would the Umiak build such devices? Canonically, they like to build big things... But what cultural values would lead a society to devote a substantial amount of resources towards the detection of old alien signals?

The Loroi probably wouldn't think to use such a system given their abilities. Although they may now that they know there is at least one species they can't sense.

The Umiak on the other hand would be a good candidate for doing it. Their 'conquer them before they conquer us' philosophy would lead to a desire to detect technic races as early as possible...short of massive scouting operations, signals would be the most efficient method of finding them.

[Mjolnir]

Given the info above, might their still be a possibility of a 20Th century or later message getting through. I know that Seti and a few other have purposely sent out messages of contact to anyone lessening. Now I know their alot of "interference" that can get in the way but could we get lucky ?

Well, that is essentially why we sent them. However, consider the time we've actually spent beaming messages at the stars, and the likelihood of someone listening with a big enough ear from a location inside the beam at just the right time to hear the message...

If one were to be communicating over interstellar distances, wouldn't it be prudent to send out your message in a highly compact beam of photons like a laser since light diffuses over an areas a message gets farther from the transmitter?

All EM transmissions will do that. Coherent transmissions are just easier to focus. Radio transmissions are generally coherent, the advantage of lasers is short wavelength allowing narrower beams (so more of your transmitted energy goes to the target system instead of surrounding interstellar space) and less interaction with the interstellar medium.

Furthermore, would the Umiak build such devices? Canonically, they like to build big things... But what cultural values would lead a society to devote a substantial amount of resources towards the detection of old alien signals?

It seems like their apparent paranoia about other species would make such projects quite appealing to them. A civilization not under their control is an enemy to be subdued, and old transmissions can tell them about the enemy or alert them to the existence of previously unknown enemies...all without revealing anything about themselves.

[Ktrain]

Query: Are Umiak creative enough to devise the creation of such a device; if so would they find it practical? and Given the breadth of space they would be monitoring, what would be the likelihood that they would direct such a device in our direction at a peak time to receive our transmissions (they could spend a lot of time focusing on other specs of space)? and What is the relative cost devoting resources to such a large scale detection array in comparison to scouting after the advent of FTL drives/exploration? What is the value of receiving message from 1000 light years away when your immediate attention is in the local area (for all they know that civilization maybe extinct)?

[TheUnforsaken]

I get the impression the Umiak are more single-minded than uncreative, if they weren't at war and they considered undiscovered specied to be their greatest threat then I'd imagine they'd go to a lot of effort to find them.

[NOMAD]

Query: Are Umiak creative enough to devise the creation of such a device; if so would they find it practical? and Given the breadth of space they would be monitoring, what would be the likelihood that they would direct such a device in our direction at a peak time to receive our transmissions (they could spend a lot of time focusing on other specs of space)?

Well we do know the both the loroi and the Umiak have a develop some/steal type of tech advancement, and that the Umiak are Xenophobic to a point so I could see them expending resources on a passive com detection system for finding out potential enemies. sort like the ELINT ( electronic intel) role that most militarises have right now, the more famous one in memory was that US P-3 ELINT that got rammed by a Chinese fighter and forced to land on mainland China).

What is the relative cost devoting resources to such a large scale detection array in comparison to scouting after the advent of FTL drives/exploration? What is the value of receiving message from 1000 light years away when your immediate attention is in the local area (for all they know that civilization maybe extinct)?

Well, given the Umiak apparent efficiency in production, I could see them spending a huge amount of resource on this kind of system. now the scale would depend, I believe, on the paranoia of the umiak. I could see them deploying a few large receiving arrays ( like the one in South America or larger telescope farms) on a few plant at first but them spreading them all over their empire. The umiak could also spread out remote listening posts in asteroid fields or on the edge of planetary systems in order to increase the coverage area ( and possibilities of receiving a signal). Now how far the system is spread out over the Umiak empire would depend on both peace and wartime time budgets and how successful such a system would be in Umiak history. Now setting this all up and having the station maned wouldn't not, i think require alot of money or personnel 13 Million was the max under NASA ( linkyhttp://openseti.org/Budget.html)

as for FTL searching that does take time to find inhabited systems, however, if the passive system was operating a got a signal from an unknown race, you could send a scout (or scout fleet) toward the new discovery. now if you found the race had A-bombed themselves or suffered an massive asteroid impact, the fleet could turn back.

[GeoModder]

I'd say the Historians would find a broad spectrum receiving array to their benefit. After all, they're supposed to be the ones trying to discover&research everything/one and their pets within range.

[NOMAD]

I'd say the Historians would find a broad spectrum receiving array to their benefit. After all, they're supposed to be the ones trying to discover&research everything/one and their pets within range.

could very well be, it would be really interesting to see the database of such a receiving system ( if the Historians are the Soia) you could possibly have a near complete history of all the races

[Grayhome]

Do we have confirmation that Loroi can read human minds through cloth? Or does it have to be through direct skin to skin contact by several powerful telepathic Loroi?

[Trantor]

Do we have confirmation that Loroi can read human minds through cloth? Or does it have to be through direct skin to skin contact by several powerful telepathic Loroi?

They can´t read Alex at all.

[fredgiblet]

Do we have confirmation that Loroi can read human minds through cloth? Or does it have to be through direct skin to skin contact by several powerful telepathic Loroi?

Every indication is that they are unable to read him. However it's also possible that the attempt got cut off early as we don't know what happened after he blacked out.

[Sprawl63]

Do we have confirmation that Loroi can read human minds through cloth? Or does it have to be through direct skin to skin contact by several powerful telepathic Loroi?

Every indication is that they are unable to read him. However it's also possible that the attempt got cut off early as we don't know what happened after he blacked out.

Tempo said that their Farseer couldn't even detect him on the bridge. They also asked him about the mental "shield" he had. I think that if they got anything out of him, it was nothing of consequence. Perhaps they are limited to only brief flashes or surface thoughts, if that. I take the stance that he's immune or nearly so.

[GeoModder]

I guess we'll find out if Alex (and humans in general) have a lotai once Strike Group 51 jumps out of the Naam system. The Umiak telepathy inhibitor (or whatever the device is called) shouldn't then be effective anymore.

[javcs]

They should have been detected long before entering Naam, as it's sort of in the middle of no-man's (no-xeno's?) land.

SG51 (and the other Loroi) haven't just been sitting around in Naam the entire time that the Bellarmine was traversing (laterally) the Steppes. Sure, it's "only" a small amount of minds, but they're going laterally through the Steppes from places unknown - the Loroi would not have ignored Bell had they spotted her crew.

[Cy83r]

They should have been detected long before entering Naam, as it's sort of in the middle of no-man's (no-xeno's?) land.

SG51 (and the other Loroi) haven't just been sitting around in Naam the entire time that the Bellarmine was traversing (laterally) the Steppes. Sure, it's "only" a small amount of minds, but they're going laterally through the Steppes from places unknown - the Loroi would not have ignored Bell had they spotted her crew.

So then we can surmise that Kiki made a very educated bluff and, perhaps, Still Storm's reaction added points to the possibility that she knew enough in order to call the bluff.

I wouldn't be surprised if he/it had formulated a dozen or more hypotheses as to what was causing the Loroi force's abnormal behavior and simply pursued the most likely avenue of probability to the supposition that something was jamming their Farsensing ability. I mean, look at the mechanics of Umiak language, it's practically built for proficiency in engineering a thirty xanatos pileup.

I hope this Umiak becomes a major antagonist and we get to see roughly how many gambits he can run at once.

[javcs]

They should have been detected long before entering Naam, as it's sort of in the middle of no-man's (no-xeno's?) land.

SG51 (and the other Loroi) haven't just been sitting around in Naam the entire time that the Bellarmine was traversing (laterally) the Steppes. Sure, it's "only" a small amount of minds, but they're going laterally through the Steppes from places unknown - the Loroi would not have ignored Bell had they spotted her crew.

So then we can surmise that Kiki made a very educated bluff and, perhaps, Still Storm's reaction added points to the possibility that she knew enough in order to call the bluff.

I wouldn't be surprised if he/it had formulated a dozen or more hypotheses as to what was causing the Loroi force's abnormal behavior and simply pursued the most likely avenue of probability to the supposition that something was jamming their Farsensing ability. I mean, look at the mechanics of Umiak language, it's practically built for proficiency in engineering a thirty xanatos pileup.

I hope this Umiak becomes a major antagonist and we get to see roughly how many gambits he can run at once.

No, it's still possible that -27 is telling a half-truth - there could be an Umiak psi-jammer project that he's testing, or he could be testing something else out - but we don't have enough information to tell what the Umiak are really up to (yet).

[Mjolnir]

I guess we'll find out if Alex (and humans in general) have a lotai once Strike Group 51 jumps out of the Naam system. The Umiak telepathy inhibitor (or whatever the device is called) shouldn't then be effective anymore.

If the Umiak "countermeasure" was responsible for their inability to detect a human standing right in front of them, you've got to explain why they don't have any problems with telepathic contact with each other. The human lotai is likely completely unrelated to the Umiak countermeasure.

The nature of the difficulty was described as unreliability in judging the strength of forces, not outright invisibility. Perhaps the Umiak haven't done anything to hide their crew, but have deployed extensive robotics or drone ships to allow a major reduction in crew. Or they've finally figured out what parts of the brain they can shut down and have a crewmember with little psi signature that's still reasonably functional, but with some number of unmodified crew needed to direct the others. Or perhaps they've simply been increasing the crew complement of their ships beyond what's necessary, stuffing extra brains into their fleets so when the time came, they could send out a large fleet with minimal crews and give the Loroi a nasty surprise.

[Fotiadis_110]

I keep thinking that the reason that the manoeuvres in the dust-cloud are difficult to anticipate their size and strength is due to the latest class of fleet being more and more automated rather than relying upon sentients.
You do not need a sentient to identify or prioritise target acquisition, a team for navigation or even in point defence settings, thus the Umiak may have reduced their crew compliment by up to a third... maybe more if they forgo ship security forces to prevent Loroi boarding actions (after all, it's far easier to just blow up your own ship than it is to try to repel someone as dangerous as Fireblade... and you never know, maybe you can take them all down with it!?!)
If you recall that Umiak tend to send older ships with the newer, you could use old ships with little automation as one strike force, seemingly (to a farseer) the 'main strike force' with most of the minds on board, while a newer and more advanced task force with far less minds may have far more ships and more new firepower than the loroi would anticipate. Lets not forget the Umiak commander in question is known for unusual tactics and behaviours...

If he noticed the new ships with more computation and less people on board were more or less unexpected by the loroi as major assaults, then he just gained valuable intel upon the Loroi and probably realised this during the first few strike force groups of the 51st, and thus chose to attempt to bluff that he knew the inability to detect, and should he return to Umiak territory he may offer insights and thus lead to a new generation of starships that the loroi cannot anticipate... for instance, sending in a couple colony ships in an effort to distract and or 'jam' farsensing in as much as giving them a large number of false positives.

Of course i do suspect that our Umiak don't listen to the suggestions of simple officers in their fleet regarding starship design, after all the race is not known for its creativity nor its adaptability or willingness to listen to individuals.

After all, how would the Umiak who have no Loroi prisoners (due to the serious danger any Loroi presents with her mind attacks) discover this fact?
Well while military Loroi might be unwilling to work with them, if you kidnap children young enough, and raise them among your own with lies and deceit (regarding their past anyway), you can learn far more about their abilities than if you simply try to test with unwilling adults.
It's a bit like something that was done in Australia, in an effort to 'civilise' the native population
Even the Umiak will understand this concept, raise them as your own and gain an understanding of the opponents you face sounds a worthwhile tactic.
Particularly when the entire lot of the opponents race displays powers you cannot contain, control or even understand.

I dare say i wouldn't put it past the Umiak to learn that Loroi can sense MINDS rather than using some kind of tech to achieve their long range detection. Although i don't have any idea how wide they would spread this news among their offensive forces, it really is incredibly important intel.

[Sprawl63]

I guess we'll find out if Alex (and humans in general) have a lotai once Strike Group 51 jumps out of the Naam system. The Umiak telepathy inhibitor (or whatever the device is called) shouldn't then be effective anymore.

If the Umiak "countermeasure" was responsible for their inability to detect a human standing right in front of them, you've got to explain why they don't have any problems with telepathic contact with each other. The human lotai is likely completely unrelated to the Umiak countermeasure.

The nature of the difficulty was described as unreliability in judging the strength of forces, not outright invisibility. Perhaps the Umiak haven't done anything to hide their crew, but have deployed extensive robotics or drone ships to allow a major reduction in crew. Or they've finally figured out what parts of the brain they can shut down and have a crewmember with little psi signature that's still reasonably functional, but with some number of unmodified crew needed to direct the others. Or perhaps they've simply been increasing the crew complement of their ships beyond what's necessary, stuffing extra brains into their fleets so when the time came, they could send out a large fleet with minimal crews and give the Loroi a nasty surprise.

I don't think it has such a wide range as to include the Loroi fleet. The Barsam vessel in the area before the battle would have also been enveloped in this field and it was never noted that the Loroi couldn't detect them.

[GeoModder]

If the Umiak "countermeasure" was responsible for their inability to detect a human standing right in front of them, you've got to explain why they don't have any problems with telepathic contact with each other. The human lotai is likely completely unrelated to the Umiak countermeasure.

I don't think it has such a wide range as to include the Loroi fleet. The Barsam vessel in the area before the battle would have also been enveloped in this field and it was never noted that the Loroi couldn't detect them.

For all we know the Umiak countermeasure is "calibrated" to exclude non-Soia-Liron races from its effect. Whether the effect is complete masking or diminishing the amount of sentients from specific races scanned for. It might also be possible that the countermeasure is psionic in nature and affects attention-related stuff. For instance, the farseer onboard Tempest is probably tuned/concentrated to scan for Umiak, not a species it never encountered and hasn't the first idea of what kind of signature to look for (at least, I assume the onboard farseer hasn't been allowed to take a close look at Alexander yet).

Point of matter is we simply don't know, and have to await Chapter 2 in a non-Naam setting for confirmation.

[icekatze]

hi hi

On a different note, I was looking over the page again today and I felt obliged to point out how awesome the poses are on this page... or at least that second to last panel where they're walking out of the bridge. The footwork is especially fantastic.