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Space Warfare 
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Post Space Warfare
Found a nice video speculating about space warfare and something caugh my attention.

It is said that loroi have a better range than the Umiak, about 1 light second vs half that for the umiak (from what i remember)

but the point brought by that video is that 1second aways still give 1 second for the ennemy ship to maneuver because of the light lag.

You identify your target 1 second away, so the light (infra-red radar or visual) from that ship take one second to reach you, so that mean that by the time your beam reach the target you are already 2 seconds too late One for the light to reach you and one for your beam to reach them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvs_f5MwT04


Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
Karst45 wrote:
Found a nice video speculating about space warfare and something caugh my attention.

It is said that loroi have a better range than the Umiak, about 1 light second vs half that for the umiak (from what i remember)

but the point brought by that video is that 1second aways still give 1 second for the ennemy ship to maneuver because of the light lag.

You identify your target 1 second away, so the light (infra-red radar or visual) from that ship take one second to reach you, so that mean that by the time your beam reach the target you are already 2 seconds too late One for the light to reach you and one for your beam to reach them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvs_f5MwT04


Two second delay for a shot to reach its target is small fry when compared to what old fashioned naval combat was like. Shots were fired not where the ship was but where it would be by the time the shot's would reach the distance, often a lag of several seconds. At WW1 and early WW2 the gunnery officers had to calculate and adjust the targeting on the fly in the heat of battle, taking into account the relative speed and eye balling the distance involved. This would result at the first two or three salvos being either too long or too short from the target, the salvos were considered on target not when a shot hit the ship but when most of the shots enveloped the target ship, meaning that the gunnery officer had finally found the correct distance and speed of the targeted ship. This process became easier with the advent of gunnery computers at the end of WW2 but ship to ship naval fire was still very inaccurate.

The computers of the combatants have undoubtedly being programmed to take into account all these factors and the gunners are there to catch any potential flaw by eyeballing the calculations presented into the targeting solutions that the computers offer.

Note that in the battle the majority of Loroi shots had enveloped the targets, which means that the time lag problem has been taken care off.

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:58 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
dragoongfa wrote:
Note that in the battle the majority of Loroi shots had enveloped the targets, which means that the time lag problem has been taken care off.


The battle we saw in the comic must've been from within one light second between the Loroi ballooning squadrons and the Umiak wedge.
At least, a 1,000 solons (about 1,000 seconds) intercept time is barely enough to let the Loroi move 1 light second away of the Umiak attack vector at 30g acceleration, and the Loroi squadrons only started 'ballooning' out sometime after the Umiak torpedo launch was about neutralized.

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:54 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
Karst45 wrote:
It is said that loroi have a better range than the Umiak, about 1 light second vs half that for the umiak

Given this, and the IIRC higher acceleration of the Loroi forces, I have to wonder why the Loroi would ever move into the Umiak's combat range.

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:13 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Karst45 wrote:
It is said that loroi have a better range than the Umiak, about 1 light second vs half that for the umiak

Given this, and the IIRC higher acceleration of the Loroi forces, I have to wonder why the Loroi would ever move into the Umiak's combat range.


The logistics involved in dancing around and cutting a force piecemeal forbid such tactics when you think about it. At longer ranges and at constant acceleration the shots will miss far more often and far more fuel will be consumed due to excessive maneuvering and repeated firing. Certain risks have to be taken in order to ensure the destruction of enough enemy forces before having to disengage for resupply. Also bear in mind that a fleet that dances around and takes its time against an Umiak assault force is not in position to intercept an other assault force that now has a clear line for the planet; remember that the Loroi are badly outnumbered by a determined adversary that isn't afraid to sustain heavy losses in order to achieve their objective.

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:32 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
dragoongfa wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Karst45 wrote:
It is said that loroi have a better range than the Umiak, about 1 light second vs half that for the umiak

Given this, and the IIRC higher acceleration of the Loroi forces, I have to wonder why the Loroi would ever move into the Umiak's combat range.


The logistics involved in dancing around and cutting a force piecemeal forbid such tactics when you think about it. At longer ranges and at constant acceleration the shots will miss far more often and far more fuel will be consumed due to excessive maneuvering and repeated firing. Certain risks have to be taken in order to ensure the destruction of enough enemy forces before having to disengage for resupply. Also bear in mind that a fleet that dances around and takes its time against an Umiak assault force is not in position to intercept an other assault force that now has a clear line for the planet; remember that the Loroi are badly outnumbered by a determined adversary that isn't afraid to sustain heavy losses in order to achieve their objective.

Less fuel than is needed to avoid enemy fire at closer ranges. All they'd need to do is hold their distance from the Umiak fleet.

As for being outnumbered, that works two ways. They cannot afford a high loss rate, so I'd expect them to make use of one of their few advantages over the Umiak in order to level the playing field somewhat.

In terms of fuel we're talking torchships here, powered by what is basically anti-matter. I'd expect logistics issues with that would be based more on how much a civilisation can produce, not how much an individual spacecraft can carry.

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Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
There is a difference between acceleration and velocity. A fleet coming in at 20g of acceleration builds tremendous velocity. You will have a narrow window to intercept and engage. Also, Loroi tactics likely do involve some kiting to whittle the enemy through attrition but circumstances in comic prevented that. Icky-Ticky commented on their odd/peculiar tactics in his communication.


Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:15 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
hi hi

Umiak have the numbers to do some interesting maneuvers in three dimensional space. The most basic one that comes to mind is having multiple groups of ships moving a different velocities and accelerations. While one force screens, another force builds up a running start, then they leap frog their way toward the Loroi forces.

The Loroi may be able to fly circles around the Umiak all day long, but the Umiak have more ships, and if the Loroi spread themselves too thinly, they're going to be vulnerable to gunboats and torpedoes. (The Loroi do need to break off and resupply eventually, as show in the comic.)


Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:33 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Umiak have the numbers to do some interesting maneuvers in three dimensional space. The most basic one that comes to mind is having multiple groups of ships moving a different velocities and accelerations. While one force screens, another force builds up a running start, then they leap frog their way toward the Loroi forces.

The Loroi may be able to fly circles around the Umiak all day long, but the Umiak have more ships, and if the Loroi spread themselves too thinly, they're going to be vulnerable to gunboats and torpedoes. (The Loroi do need to break off and resupply eventually, as show in the comic.)


Its a Quality vs Quantity on the Loroi side and the famous quote associated with Stallin: "Quantity has its own Quality."

To use a few gaming examplese:

In starcraft, Protoss are one of the more expensive armies of the three. The basic troop maybe a close combat type, but he has double the life of most other basic troops and an equal number of points to their shield which slowly recharges. As the game progressess adn you are allowed more units, you will find this with the dragoons/stalkers, and all the way to the Carrier.

Zerg, the race of space locusts that evolve different strands and species as they need to, relly on getting troops out fast and then rush the enemy en mass. So you will see lots of zerglings (its a mix between a dog, a cricket, and a pissed off lizard about the size of a rotwiller and the speed of a grey hound) and plenty of Hydrolists to add both fighting potential and anti airsupport, with maybe the occational Ultralistks running amuck and smashing apart tanks.


Another would be a few armies from Warhammer, both Fantasy and 40,000. Skaven, Orcs and Goblins, and Tyranids, Space Orks, and Imperial Guard are all armies that relly mostly on overwhelming force. they have a few minies that are badass on their own (Hell Pit Abomination, Doom Diver Catapult, Carnafex, Big Stompa, and the Baneblade respectivly) they mostly try to overwhelm you with numbers. This is converse with Warriors of CHaos/Chaos Marines, ANything with the name "Elves" or "Eldar" in it, Lizardmen, Ogres, Spacemarines, and Dwarves may have smaller armies in comparison but they are generaly tougher and stronger, and might actualy hit something without rolling a large brick of dice.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:41 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
A two second delay might not be all that long, but Loroi ships can move/accelerate a heck of a lot faster than WWII ships.

At maximum range, a shell from a 16" gun on the Iowa would spend about 90 seconds in flight. An Iowa class BB moving at 30 knots would move about 1500 meters in that amount of time, and, if turning at maximum rudder, could just finish a 180 degree turn. Assuming no significant change in speed (only in rudder) it will be somewhere along the rim of a ~1500x2500 meter half ovalish shape centered on where the ship was when the salvo was fired.

_______***_______
_____*_____*_____
____*_______*____
___*_________*___
___*_________*___
___*____S____*___

This is actually a much more restricted area than where a space ship with a 30g acceleration could be after 2 seconds. Such a ship could be up to 600m off in any direction from the position would be predicted to be at absent acceleration at the time it was observed. (1/2 * acceleration * time^2 = 1/2 * 300m/s*2 seconds^2 = 600m) This would result in a 1200m diameter circle in which the ship could be anywhere.

___*****___
__*******__
_*********_
_****S****_
_*********_
__*******__
___*****___


A high acceleration ship 'dodging' at 1 LS distance would be a hard target, even with light speed weapons. I would guess that the incoming Umiak ships had a lower acceleration, and weren't dodging. Just coming in on a hard, predictable burn to close the distance ASAP.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:55 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
hi hi

Just a small nitpick, but in space, it would be a 1200 m diameter sphere rather than a circle. ;)

Also, while the Loroi ships have accelerations around 30g, the Umiak do have weapon systems that can meet or exceed that. Torpedoes and gunboats. The Loroi can swat those down, but it doesn't look like the can do that while maintaining a full burn in the opposite direction. So while dodging and maneuvering, any acceleration in one specific direction is going to be less than their maximum acceleration.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:37 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
I thought of the sphere issue, but dismissed it as I was talking about direct fire/beam weapons. Being closer or farther away won't make the beam miss, just hit a wee bit earlier or later. Only displacement from the predicted position perpendicular to the path of the beam will result in a miss, so the target area collapses to a circle, even though the ship's possible location after 2 seconds of additional acceleration are represented, as you say, by a sphere.

Weapons that can correct their aim in flight are effectively firing from a lot closer, and thus reduce the uncertainty area quite a lot depending on how close they get before actually making their attack.


Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:48 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
On the other side, the ship itself has length around 1000 m. And acceleration specified for main drives and fly forward. The acceleration in other directions could be much lower.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:52 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
You might also have to accommodate other factors such as gravitational pole of other objects (say moons or planets) and the fact you are probably constantly moving. Maybe at a stable rate but a slight push from one direction or another is enough to send you moving until you push to another side or you hit something hard.

And if you miss, those missiles are going to hit something sooner or later, even if latter is a million years from now.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:06 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
Actually, there is no such thing as "not moving" in space. :D It's just a question of reference frame.
And if ship fly engines off, it just orbits something and it's position in the near future can be calculated easely and preciously.
saint of m wrote:
And if you miss, those missiles are going to hit something sooner or later, even if latter is a million years from now.
Most of the Outsiders projectiles fly faster, than typical star escape velocity, so missed missiles will leave star system and fly through interstellar space at least for next 10000 years.


Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:20 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
Has anyone nailed down a hit-chance formula that considers ship diameter (assume a sphere!), weapon diameter, ship speed, and detect/impact delay? I'm specifically wondering if it should use ship diameter or ship radius, and if exp() or similar should be involved (still poking a little at that old 4x forum idea).


Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:34 pm
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Post Re: Space Warfare
Absalom wrote:
I'm specifically wondering if it should use ship diameter or ship radius, and if exp() or similar should be involved (still poking a little at that old 4x forum idea).

Effective crossection area should be used.


Mon May 01, 2017 8:59 am
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Post Re: Space Warfare
SVlad wrote:
Absalom wrote:
I'm specifically wondering if it should use ship diameter or ship radius, and if exp() or similar should be involved (still poking a little at that old 4x forum idea).

Effective crossection area should be used.
I should have typed that out better. In the "(speed*delay + ship size - attack size)/ship diameter" formula used to calculate hit-chances, I'm wondering if "ship size" should be radius or diameter (it occurred to me that the outermost layer of positions with a depth equal to the ship's radius provides no benefit if you attack it, but I'm not sure that I'm right about that).


Thu May 04, 2017 9:33 pm
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