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Pages 114, 115, 116 
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Mega Update :!: :o


Mon May 29, 2017 4:25 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Krulle wrote:
Edit: I find the last image a bit... weird from perspective. For Alexander's hand and her hand to be across her chest, Alexander must've jumped sides of the shuttle (you can still see a pilot chair in the background, so she's still on the starboard side of the gangway), and is now standing also on the starboard side between Talon and Beryl...


I think Alex may have moved slightly, but not much. I believe you're looking at the wrong chair. You can see it in the last panel page 113, to the right of Talon's. Also in the first panel of 114. It faces the right-hand side of the cockpit, towards the screen on the wall.

I believe the last panel in 116 is from Alex's PoV - His right hand going across to Talon's right.

A.


Mon May 29, 2017 5:10 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Fantastic. So impressed to see three pages completed and posted. This gives great heart that there is a pipeline of possible posts into the future. Very very excited to see pages. I am hopeful that more character development takes place with this and others to follow. I presume that all the background work and set design is in place so that pages are relatively easy to put together now?

Love meeting a new flavor of specialist Loroi .

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{snip}3. No, they're not mixed up. Doranzer and Tenoin have already appeared in various places in the comic. The Tenoin are not infantry, they're pilots.{endsnip}


Mon May 29, 2017 6:16 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
GabrielGABFonseca wrote:
Ok people, I have a new game for you: It is called What is Beryl Feeling? - it's a very simple game, we simply have to guess what our dear Tozet Beryl is feeling as of the end of page 116!



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Also, I'd like to congratulate Arioch for the big payday he must have gotten from his Patreon subscriber's after posting this many pages in one go. Bravo Arioch! Keep up the good work!
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Mon May 29, 2017 8:49 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

That certainly is an interesting misunderstanding. I would almost wager that Enzin would need to explain the nature of TCA ranks, and that he is closer to the lower end of the hierarchy when it comes to officers. Although, I'm not sure what the Loroi would think of the concept of enlisted ranks. The Loroi have plenty of different castes, but would enlisted ranks seem like having civilians in the positions of warriors?
I think it would ultimately translate to enlisted officers being squarely in the Torrai-equivalent category, with unenlisted being Soroin and Tenoin, depending on branch.

Might take several years of finagling, but I figure that's how it would end up. A complicating factor, of course, is that theoretically all military officers would have started as civilians, and some (Scout Corp.) probably technically count as para-military at most.


Mon May 29, 2017 11:59 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Funny thing about Talon's manner of speaking, she seems to have accidentally pronounced "humanity" correctly rather than saying "humaniti" like others unfamiliar with the word.

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Tue May 30, 2017 3:41 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
CF2 wrote:
Funny thing about Talon's manner of speaking, she seems to have accidentally pronounced "humanity" correctly rather than saying "humaniti" like others unfamiliar with the word.


What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


Tue May 30, 2017 3:43 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
cacambo43 wrote:
What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


I think would sound like the difference between human-eat-ee rather than human-itty.

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Tue May 30, 2017 5:45 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
I am so happy to see these panels! I think I'm going to really like these pilots!

What's the plan for meting out the Patreon changes, Arioch? Are you going to take a lump sum or spread things out?

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Tue May 30, 2017 7:24 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
In regards to the enlisted and commissioned officer question.

The factor would probably be the responsibilities and authority granted to the ranks in question. Enlisted ranks are only responsible for themselves and their assignment and they do not hold authority that hasn't been granted to them by a commanding officer; enlisted are required the obey the orders of their superiors provided those orders don't conflict with the orders that their commanding officer has given them.

Commissioned officers are given a commission by the state, this grants them legal authority and responsibility over the enlisted ranks and the commissioned officers below them in the chain of command. Officers are the ones responsible for how the unit they command functions and behaves and they are given the legal authority and leeway to do what's necessary for the unit to function according to expectations (within the confines of military law).

In short: The enlisted obeys legal orders to the best of their ability and is responsible for himself and his assignment, the officer gives legal orders and is responsible for the unit he is assigned to command.

As to how the Loroi will see this, they will probably understand the concept immediately and those disillusioned with the byzantine chain of command that the caste system has burdened them with will feel envy about the simplicity of it all.

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Tue May 30, 2017 10:33 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
CF2 wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


I think would sound like the difference between human-eat-ee rather than human-itty.


Alex was taught the Orchus' dialect of the Trade Language, while the Loroi speak their own version of it, so he will have sounded a bit 'foreign' to Loroi ears. The good thing is that it doesn't appear to be an insurmountable issue.

Even within a single language area there will be many different accents, not to mention any 'class' or caste-differences. Just to illustrate what some degree of separation between regions can do with a living thing such as language:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-8mzWkuOxz8

(to be honest I had completely glossed over the humaniti vs. humanity pronunciation)

~Z~


Last edited by Zarya on Tue May 30, 2017 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue May 30, 2017 11:26 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
As far as I am aware, a modern non-commissioned officer (corporal, sergeant, etc.) has exactly the same responsibility for the men under his command as any commissioned officer does. Our division between enlisted and commissioned ranks is largely artificial and is a relic of traditional land armies in which there was a clear social and class division between the gentry/knights/officers and the peasants/levies/conscripts/enlisted. The Loroi wouldn't have any trouble understanding this concept, but it isn't useful to them either in social terms or in the context of an ultra-tech military. The enlisted/commissioned barrier is already starting to show its obsolescence in our modern militaries, in democratic societies that no longer mirror the gentry/peasant class division, and in increasingly technologically advanced forces that require ever more professional and well-trained and -educated soldiers, especially in services like air forces and navies in which the "rank and file" structure of infantry has less relevance. Untrained conscripts and levies have less and less value as the technology of warfare rises. When you project that system into the future, it gets silly. Case in point: Chief O'Brien in Star Trek, who is older, more experienced, and more technically proficient than his young friend Lieutenant Bashir who he must always be subordinate to because O'Brien didn't attend Starfleet Academy and so can never be an "officer." This doesn't make sense either in terms of the Federation's supposed egalitarian meritocratic society, or in terms of the needs of an ultra-tech Starfleet.

In Loroi society, the class division is between civilian and military rather than between rich and poor, and so the lowliest grunt soldier has attained a social status higher than the richest civilian can ever hope for. Also, that lowliest grunt can rise to the highest rank, if she is capable; there no artificial barrier based on wealth or birth. In ancient times, some Loroi armies may have used civilian conscripts and levies as auxiliaries (much as the ancient Spartans and Romans did to augment their citizen armies), but such levies serve very little purpose in an ultra-tech military.

cacambo43 wrote:
What's the plan for meting out the Patreon changes, Arioch? Are you going to take a lump sum or spread things out?

Not sure what changes you mean. If you're referring to the new "charge up front" feature, that applies only to those who charge per month, and it only affects new patrons; existing patrons are still only charged on the first of each month. Outsider charges per page, but Patreon only bills the patrons once a month.

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Tue May 30, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
In regards to NCO's and their responsibilities in regards to the men under them, that's were things are a little murky and are wholly dependent on the doctrine they serve under. In armies with top down doctrines that don't emphasize local initiative then NCO's are only expected to relay the orders and make sure that they are followed to the best of their ability and training. In armies which put local initiative in the fore front then NCO's are expected to lead and take initiatives according to the best of their ability and training.

The difference in both is training, armies that have an NCO initiative focus train their NCOs thoroughly and effectively. Armies that don't? They just put the biggest yeller in charge and they are done with it.

As for responsibilities; NCO's do have responsibilities but those responsibilities are laid down in military law and aren't as thorough and expansive as the ones that an officer gets. An NCO is responsible for his squad not to fuck up and isn't expected to do much else unless assigned to by the officer above him. An officer above is legally responsible for all the forces under him and is obliged by law to keep alert for any 'wrong doings' of all friendlies near him.

There is a lot of legalities involved in this but in the end it can best explained with this non wartime example I had the fortune to write a report about during my time as a conscript in the Greek army:

Half of the third squad of the 2nd Platoon of the 1st Company has gotten food poisoning. The third's sergeant reports that those affected bought and ate a particular ice cream from the barrack's cafeteria that is owned and operated by the army. After an investigation it was discovered that the particular ice cream was well beyond the best before date. Who was punished? Several people.

1st: The stupid enlisted who sold the ice cream without bothering to check if the stock had gone bad. 30 days in prison (which in Greek terms is 30 days without leave and an extra month in the army).
2nd: The lieutenant in charge of the cafeteria for not disposing the ice cream when he first discovered that it was beyond the best before date. Reprimand and pay cut for three months.
3rd: The captain that served as quartermaster for not properly inspecting the stock of the cafeteria according to schedule. Reprimand and pay cut for a month.
4th: The colonel and major of the army base (1st and 2nd in command) for not running any surprise inspections to make sure that the above two officers didn't fuck up somewhere which would result in the above soldiers not getting hospitalized due to food poisoning. Reprimand which could delay their ascension to the ranks.

In short, officers are there to make sure that things work as intended and are punished when things don't work as intended.

Then there is the whole war crime liability that goes from top to bottom.

It doesn't have to do much with technology, know how and training but liability and responsibility.

As for Chief O'Brien and Lieutenant Bashir. That was sloppy writing imho. Most RL militaries that are as meritocratic as Starfleet is depicted offer plenty of opportunities for enlisted to rise to the ranks. In any competent navy Chief O'Brien would have been shorted for an academy crash course and come out a Lieutenant after an year aboard DS-9 and the stuff he went through.

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Last edited by dragoongfa on Tue May 30, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue May 30, 2017 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Modern US military in part deals with the officer/enlisted divide with the dual concepts of "Authority by Rank" and "Authority by Assignment/Position". (At least it did while I was in the Army)

When I was an enlisted, I occupied a position that within its domain I could issue directives to officers that they had to obey just as they had to obey orders from a higher ranked officers. (Even officers from other branches)

Now as to why this type of position was not staffed by officers to begin with, due to its nature, personnel were needed that could be assigned to particular stations for extended periods. Officers are required to be moved from command to command on a regular basis unless there is an extenuating circumstance, plus, enlisted soldiers *cost less in payroll*. (The training requirements were still fairly extensive - after the standard 2 months of basic, MOS + ASI training for my position was still over 13 months, and that's assuming you did not fail a module and have to repeat it.)

Outside of that, officer duties were more in the general leadership and management role; think CEO of a civilian manufacturing company. A CEO does not *have* to be an expert in the product the company produces, but they do need to be a good leader and have an awareness of the scope and capability of those under their command.

NCO's tend to occupy a more direct first line supervisor on up to advisor to the CEO role, and tend to be charged with more expertise in their particular MOS. Does a Lieutenant or Captain outrank a First Sergeant? Yes. But those officers heed the advice and reports of their NCO's if they wish to retain their position as such for very long.


Tue May 30, 2017 12:39 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
cacambo43 wrote:
CF2 wrote:
Funny thing about Talon's manner of speaking, she seems to have accidentally pronounced "humanity" correctly rather than saying "humaniti" like others unfamiliar with the word.


What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


<humaniti> /humaniti/
<Humanity> /hjuˈmænɪti/

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Tue May 30, 2017 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
hi hi

The point that I head meant to get at was that Alex was the lowest rung on Bellarmine's ladder, but simultaneously one of the best of the best. Trying to explain that to a Loroi who is confused about the difference between Ensign and Enzin could cause additional misunderstandings, depending on the sorts of assumptions people are going into the conversation with. (Assuming Alex even picks up on the Ensign/Enzin confusion.)

It's not like the Loroi are going to be unduly shocked and put off by the oddities of human culture. After all, they have plenty of experience with even more alien races. But they still have plenty of opportunities to look down upon the lowly outsiders with disdain for their inability to do things the correct way.

But seriously though, if I were Alex, I would be trying to dodge this line of conversation as hard as possible and get to the star maps. :P

---

On an unrelated note: How common is it for a non-pilot to have lots of jump-lanes memorized? I'm not sure if Talon is making a relatively safe wager by asking if he's a pilot, based on information like that; or if she's really going by intuition alone.


Tue May 30, 2017 2:09 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Hālian wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
CF2 wrote:
Funny thing about Talon's manner of speaking, she seems to have accidentally pronounced "humanity" correctly rather than saying "humaniti" like others unfamiliar with the word.


What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


<humaniti> /humaniti/
<Humanity> /hjuˈmænɪti/


Eh? If I'm reading that bottom one right (not a sure thing), that bears no resemblance to how I say "Humanity".

CJSF


Tue May 30, 2017 2:16 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
icekatze wrote:
But seriously though, if I were Alex, I would be trying to dodge this line of conversation as hard as possible and get to the star maps.

Yes, his moment of insecurity aside, it's not in Alex's interest to go into detail about how junior he really is.

icekatze wrote:
On an unrelated note: How common is it for a non-pilot to have lots of jump-lanes memorized? I'm not sure if Talon is making a relatively safe wager by asking if he's a pilot, based on information like that; or if she's really going by intuition alone.

Since they assume he is a ship captain, detailed navigational knowledge would not be unusual for him to have.

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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
cacambo43 wrote:
Hālian wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF


<humaniti> /humaniti/
<Humanity> /hjuˈmænɪti/


Eh? If I'm reading that bottom one right (not a sure thing), that bears no resemblance to how I say "Humanity".

CJSF


Blame Wiktionary. *shrug*

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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Arioch wrote:
As far as I am aware, a modern non-commissioned officer (corporal, sergeant, etc.) has exactly the same responsibility for the men under his command as any commissioned officer does. Our division between enlisted and commissioned ranks is largely artificial and is a relic of traditional land armies in which there was a clear social and class division between the gentry/knights/officers and the peasants/levies/conscripts/enlisted. The Loroi wouldn't have any trouble understanding this concept, but it isn't useful to them either in social terms or in the context of an ultra-tech military. The enlisted/commissioned barrier is already starting to show its obsolescence in our modern militaries, in democratic societies that no longer mirror the gentry/peasant class division, and in increasingly technologically advanced forces that require ever more professional and well-trained and -educated soldiers, especially in services like air forces and navies in which the "rank and file" structure of infantry has less relevance.


As a currently-serving officer, I can say that this is not the case at all. While the peasant/gentry connotations have indeed been long-discarded, the enlisted/officer division is central to the way the military operates and is as artificial as any other pay scale one would find in corporate America. The officer and enlisted ranks evolved with the industrial revolution to a more blue/white collar differentiation. Even in high-tech operations like mine where everyone is doing white collar work, the distinction still exists in the form of a technician/project lead relationship.

Officers will only ever make up a fraction of the force. They take longer to train and cost more to educate. Additionally, they are supposed to be generalists by design. While officers will gain depth in at least one career field at the start of their careers, all are expected to undergo "career broadening" mid-way through in preparation for leadership roles which demand a *very* wide range of experience in acquisitions, personnel management, finance, law, and a myriad of other skill-sets *in addition* to the warfighting and operational knowledge required by their career fields. Some enlisted troops go through lesser amounts of career broadening, but only those who show potential for the senior-most of the enlisted ranks. All others are expected to be specialists in their career fields.

The lines do indeed get blurry when you have modern, highly technical operations where enlisted troops may have higher-level degrees than the officers leading them, but in the end it is the job they perform and the responsibilities levied on officers and enlisted troops that differentiates them. Enlisted personnel are the technical experts that do the work and, at most, manage a handful of other technical experts. They are focused on today, tomorrow, and possibly next week. Officers are the leaders who are coordinating multiple sets of technical experts to achieve the overall objective and should be focused 3-6 months, or even a year or more ahead based on the nature of their jobs. I frequently date paperwork incorrectly because my brain is stuck in 2019 or 2018 and I occasionally forget it's 2017.


Tue May 30, 2017 7:41 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
GabrielGABFonseca wrote:
Ok people, I have a new game for you: It is called What is Beryl Feeling? - it's a very simple game, we simply have to guess what our dear Tozet Beryl is feeling as of the end of page 116!


"First Fireblade, and now Talon is molesting the guy who's supposed to convince Humaniti the Loroi are the good guys! We're doomed."

Also, note Beryl's expression on page 41. I don't think she likes Talon.


Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:33 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Beryl doesn't look pleased, I would say that look is jealousy. I mean she has been so kind and such yet this act is well a friendly Human greeting why and what does she have to do to earn that kind of reaction?

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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
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Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:20 pm
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
Arioch wrote:
NuclearIceCream wrote:
Arent wrote:
I just noticed that Talon apparently misunderstood him. He said, she could call him "Ensign", which she apparently understood as "Enzin"? Does she think that is his name?


It was explained before that ensign was his rank, I would think Beryl would have spread that around. Enzin is probably an accent thing. You'll note that she is not as eloquent as Beryl or our favorite diplomatic officer. You'll also notice the one flying the shuttle is less eloquent.

Beryl also informed them that Alex's name means "Garden Guardian", which in Trade is Ristan Enzin.



Well it doesn't sound that bad he is a Guardian of something and I am not sure if you have ever delt with hungry gophers when it comes to actually having a Garden.

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Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:41 am
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Post Re: Pages 114, 115, 116
fredgiblet wrote:
Spoiler: show
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Personally, I don't really like the idea of Outsider having too much emphasis on romance or - goddess forbid it - romcom elements. But then again... read my signature. :P

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Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:45 am
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