Page 117: I will demonstrate!

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icekatze
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I'm not sure if the Loroi have a policy of disallowing males on ships. If I recall correctly, some of the farseers used by varying strike groups are male.

novius
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

Overkill Engine wrote:Sending Tempo along means Alex and any resulting issues has been made her problem to deal with as well as getting rid of a (sneaky mealy mouthed Mizol) officer that is a thorn in her side for at least a time.
Beware. It was Tempo who put this up as a reason to leave with the group and especially Alex. And Mizol are certifiably untrusted because they have experience in hiding the full truth or outright lying. So the real reason why Tempo decided to tag along could be a wholly different one.

If Beryl did show some possessiveness in regards to that alien, I'm pretty sure that Tempo would go even greater lengths to not to let it out of her reach.


Aside from that, it really does look like that tensions could run high. So any concerns that this alien could be a threat to the discipline on board of the ship (which is in an active warzone, mind you) were very much warranted.

ewaggin
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by ewaggin »

I'm taking this at face value.
Beryl be like, "Get your lunch hooks off my man!" Talon be like, "Come at me, beeyotch, and see what happens".

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

I'm not sure if the Loroi have a policy of disallowing males on ships. If I recall correctly, some of the farseers used by varying strike groups are male.
I wonder if someone already discussed it....

Beryl's first assumption about humans (pg. 44) was that their males have some base biological need to mate and not doing so would be hazardous to their health - just because Loroi males have it and humans do look that similar. If it wouldn't have been the case, Beryl might have never broached that subject because it would have been out of her range of experience.

But what about Loroi females? If they are subjected to the same biological imperative it would be essential to them to bring a contingent of males along for a long term mission. Of course, not seeing any would be easily explained that they are tucked away far from any danger, and that includes a possibly dangerous alien.

As a side note, Loroi do have a sense of propriety and tact as a whole... Beryl did realize that she would tread dangerous waters with a question like this. :) And that makes the recent scene even more remarkable.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I think it's been stated that control of access to males has been a significant part of Loroi culture, especially in times when they weren't desperate to replace losses. I'm pretty sure Loroi women don't have the same kind of requirements that the men do. Also, I think the reason why they'd be willing to bring male farseers along is because farseers are such a critically important and critically scarce resource, and their position so tenuous, that they can't afford not to use any farseer that is available. Without such a pressing need, there's no reason to have men aboard. But in the presence of a pressing need, they're not so incapable of dealing with personnel issues that they can't make it work.

At least, that's what I gathered.

Taslios
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Taslios »

First time post.

wow jealous much? But I do think that this is probably more that she is embarrassed at falling asleep as well as not doing her job than anything else.


On a side note.. Talon's rank color is way too purple in 114-117.. I thought only the Emperor was purple. it was blue in 112-113....

Logannion
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Logannion »

Personally, I just think it's jealousy and insecurity.

After all, Jardin (and humanity) seem to have an impenetrable lotai that makes sensing their feelings and thoughts entirely impossible, even aspects that loroi take for granted not just for themselves but for all other aliens, such as general mood.

It must be jarring to come face to face with an alien species who looks remarkably like Loroi do, and from their 'fairer sex' that they're indoctrinated to pamper and protect since birth, and not have any telepathic inkling at all to his inner thoughts.

That inherent insecurity about taking what he says at face value (without any telepathic signals to back it up), along with culture shock to human preference for touching is understandably driving her up a wall.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

Another good point. Loroi are used to have telepathic cues to how other people - Loroi or not - think. They are accustomed to it. So the experience of being "left out" must be quite jarring. Especially for Beryl with her voracious appetite for new knowledge.

Add to that, she did sort of attach herself to him even early on (I'm sure the seating arrangement and their postures in pg. 72 did spark lots of discussion even back then... I could almost hear Fireblade's thoughts that this is definitely not regulation...), so yes. Jealousy would definitely be a part of it.

Poor Beryl :D She thought that she could finally get her hooks into him (pg. 100), but then Tempo first and now Talon encroach onto her turf...
Last edited by novius on Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

novius
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

I think it's been stated that control of access to males has been a significant part of Loroi culture, especially in times when they weren't desperate to replace losses. I'm pretty sure Loroi women don't have the same kind of requirements that the men do.
Sound reasoning. With a gender ratio being that much in disfavor to females it would be bad in an evolutionary (or design) sense to encode a biological imperative to reproduce (or just mate) into their genes.

Though, on the other hand, that could just have happened. So much that they had to regulate and formalize encounters between the genders to ensure every Loroi female's survival, else it would have become a 'winner takes all' scenario and led to riots since the 'losers' would fear for their survival.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by harlequin2262 »

On the contrary, if that was a natural occurring trait, there'd be a strong sense of competitiveness for the limited males available. There's at least one female for every human male, but female Loroi have to stand out to propagate.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by CF2 »

Voracious appetite for knowledge + inscrutable non-presence to telepathy + cute alien male = best listel puzzle ever.
Image

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

I hope Alex doesn't reveal the location of Earth to the Loroi...

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Krulle »

I'm pretty sure they've all been harshly trained not to reveal it, but to reveal a contact solar system, where the delegates are invited to come to.

But the planners of the military who planned these expeditions surely had a worst-case scenario in mind, where the Loroi would've gotten this informatione easily, due to their telepathic nature, and any person in contact with the Loroi unvoluntarily giving this information.

Hence, I presume, all crew members got trained in reading star maps, but only those segments relevant for the expected region they were sent to, and not including the jumps between Earth and the contact system (rendezvous point, relay point) referred to in page 106. And that they therefore may not know the location of Earth good enough to be able to identify Sol directly.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

novius
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

Krulle wrote:I'm pretty sure they've all been harshly trained not to reveal it, but to reveal a contact solar system, where the delegates are invited to come to.

But the planners of the military who planned these expeditions surely had a worst-case scenario in mind, where the Loroi would've gotten this informatione easily, due to their telepathic nature, and any person in contact with the Loroi unvoluntarily giving this information.

Hence, I presume, all crew members got trained in reading star maps, but only those segments relevant for the expected region they were sent to, and not including the jumps between Earth and the contact system (rendezvous point, relay point) referred to in page 106. And that they therefore may not know the location of Earth good enough to be able to identify Sol directly.
Add to that, Alex isn't completely stupid. Every bit and piece of information he brings to the table is a bargaining chip, and Earth is in desperate need of some, lest both the Loroi or the Umiak would steamroll them if Earth cannot bring up anything of value. He will surely know that even if Beryl may not watch him like a hawk that they will check which maps he accessed and which points of reference he used. Tempo was unnervingly straightforward with him that they are very much interested in the humans, so Alex can be sure that they will squeeze as much information as they can from what he shows or tells them.

But as a show of good faith, he has to throw them some bones. Like the location of a rendezvous point. And while Tempo's demeanour and profession may raise some red flags with him, Beryl could more easily wheedle some intel out of him with her easygoing, nerdy girl-next-door charm.

harlequin2262
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by harlequin2262 »

You know, I'm beginning to wonder if one of her redacted qualities on her GURPS sheet isn't 'Possessive'. It'd be consistent with her depiction so far.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

I'm pretty sure they've all been harshly trained not to reveal it, but to reveal a contact solar system, where the delegates are invited to come to.
Add to that, Alex isn't completely stupid.
I really hope your right... then again, it would add quite the dramatic twist to the story! What would the Loroi do if they had the location (or the general location) of the human home world?

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by harlequin2262 »

Probably nothing. Earth is in the Bubkiss Sector, Idaho Quadrant. Way out in the space sticks.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Arioch »

Let's try to imagine a scene of a foreign diplomat walking into the US State Department in Washington.

State Department Official: Can I help you?
Diplomat: Yes, I'm here to establish diplomatic relations on behalf of my country, Zooland.
State Department Official: Zooland? We have no listing for that nation. Where is it located?
Diplomat: I'm afraid I can't tell you that.
State Department Official: Sorry? What?
Diplomat: We don't trust you yet, so I'm afraid I can't tell you where our country is located.
State Department Official: ...How are we supposed to establish formal diplomatic relations if you won't even tell us where your country is located?
Diplomat: Here is the location of a van waiting on the edge of town. If you go there, they will blindfold you and take you to our country. Then you can speak to our leadership.
State Department Official: I'm going to stop talking to you now.

novius
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by novius »

It'd be more like "I'm still not sure whether you or the shells would be the better choice for us, so I'm trying to keep as many of my bargaining chips to myself for now as I can."

Of course, he wouldn't say that outright...

He actually tries to be forthcoming to establish relations (pg. 106, where he asks why no one actually seems to be interested in the location of the relay point), but I could imagine a first contact with a species where relations are very tense like this, that both sides would try to withhold positions of their homeworlds or colonies and to establish a summit at a neutral location.

Quid pro quo. Or rather "show me yours and I'll show mine.". Of course, Alex and Earth by extension are in a very bad starting position to bargain with, since if the Loroi are inclined to and have enough resources for some scouts to spend, they will come across Earth, sooner or later. Especially now since they do have a general direction where to look and very much incentive to do so.

So yes. Alex has enough reasons to be forthcoming. The proverbial clock is already ticking, and if time runs out, Alex would lose all of the bargaining power he has on his own and Earth's behalf.
Last edited by novius on Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

It's space opera, you can expect the actors involved to act and react in relatively human ways. Not as much risk as when negotiating with unnameable elder things with totally alien motivations and intent.

I mean, I still might try to secure some sort of declaration of intent to establish diplomatic relations before going into details about building permits for embassies, but I suppose Tempo's granting of diplomatic status to Alex might be construed as such.

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