Page 117: I will demonstrate!

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Logannion
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Logannion »

While I agree Humanity endangers the Loroi cultural identity (and propaganda) simply by existing, I find it impossible that the Loroi will ever default into "Genocide", be it species wide or simply to the point that Humanity collapses.

IIRC both times the Loroi have been pushed to do so, it was with clear, constant, and enduring provocation from the other side.

Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.

Galactic Scholar
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.
I betcha five bucks the Loroi send a warfleet armed with antimatter bombs and bio-weapons made from the dead human diplomats they took from the Belllarmine.

Mackus
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Mackus »

This is getting kinda ridiculous.
Even is we assume it's something Loroi actually care about (because they don't look very religious), the worst thing that existence of humanity does, is to imply that Loroi were not first race of Soia-Liron, which as far I can tell, nobody but hardcore nationalists care about. And evidence for them being first was sketchy at best, and by sketchy, I mean non-existent. Or even contrary. They did not leave any fossils except very late period of Soia Empire.
In any case, Loroi are too busy to have time to get angry something to far removed from either daily life or realpolitik machinations of waging war.

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Razor One
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Razor One »

Galactic Scholar wrote:
Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.
I betcha five bucks the Loroi send a warfleet armed with antimatter bombs and bio-weapons made from the dead human diplomats they took from the Belllarmine.
A fool and his money are easily parted. :P

The Loroi are not a monolithic society. We've seen only a vanishingly small fraction of that society under wartime pressure, and to make sweeping judgments about their likely actions based on that tiny fraction is as erroneous as Stillstorm's assumption that Alex was an Umiak attempt at subterfuge, despite that assumption being based on prior experience.

Politics will decide whether or not the Loroi take any kind of military action against Earth, and unlike the Tithric genocide, the politics of the Loroi Union do not allow the Emperor or any line officer with enough clout to matter to make that kind of unilateral call. You may get some small faction calling for Earth's annexation to prevent them from siding with the Umiak, you may even get an even smaller faction calling for wiping Humans out, but they're going to be one small faction in a much vaster pool who will take towards more pragmatic and sensible options.

TL;DR: You need to be actively pushing the Loroi towards being genocidal, and humans haven't pushed the Loroi a single inch in that direction.
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Galactic Scholar
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

Razor, are you a forum Moderator? Just wanted to confirm.

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Razor One
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Razor One »

Galactic Scholar wrote:Razor, are you a forum Moderator? Just wanted to confirm.
Yes, but don't let that deter you from disagreeing with me, I mostly just clean up spam when bots decide to invade the forum. As a general rule, I recuse myself from moderating discussions I'm a part of, since it's difficult to be objective when you're involved.
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Galactic Scholar
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

Cool, let me just walk you through my thought process that lead to my previous comment.

Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past?

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Razor One
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Razor One »

Galactic Scholar wrote:Cool, let me just walk you through my thought process that lead to my previous comment.

Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past?
Yes, on the Mannadi and the Tithric.
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Galactic Scholar
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?

Absalom
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Absalom »

There's a better question lurking somewhere in the shadow of the one you asked, waiting to come out. Probably something like "do you think it likely or unlikely that there are actions that will prompt the Loroi to commit xenocide?"

harlequin2262
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by harlequin2262 »

The previous circumstances of their genocide were NOT philosophical, but based upon an existential threat to their species, based on malicious sustained actions, and active involvement on the part of the Umiak.

The Humans raise certainly abstract questions concerning the origins of the Loroi.

The Loroi do not rule because they have a neat origin mythology. They rule because they've got the guns, and the ships, and the technology. Their origin is philosophically interesting, but fairly immaterial to the realpolitik of the region.

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Razor One
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Razor One »

Galactic Scholar wrote:Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?
As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.
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Galactic Scholar
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.
I was just about to get into circumstances that the Loroi might see a need for xenocide, but one point at a time. I am just trying to walk you though my thought process here, that's all. :)

Can I interpret the above post as a soft yes?

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orion1836
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by orion1836 »

I think a better question would be to ask how the Loroi view Humanity's "otherness."

Assuming their psychology is at least somewhat close to ours (and by everything seen so far in the comic, it appears to be), I see two possible reactions. Either we appear to be less of an "other" when compared to the other races they know, or we fall into the uncanny valley.

People (and soldiers by extension) need to be able to de-humanize in order to kill. Some examples from WWII: "I'm not leveling Dresden, a place that looks a lot the city where I grew up, I'm killing a bunch of Krauts who are supplying the Nazi war machine," or "I'm not brutally ending the lives of American soldiers on the Bataan Death March, I'm just giving a bunch of soldiers who surrendered the treatment that cowards deserve."

The same logic applies to killing things that look like you. It's pretty easy to smash a bug. A mouse... much less so, and forget about a cat or a dog. If the Loroi look at us and see themselves, I think it would be very difficult for them to glass our planets for any reason, societal mythology be damned.

HOWEVER, if we fall into their uncanny valley in a disturbing way, our similarity could be our undoing. Seeing something that looks like you yet is inherently NOT you can invoke a threat response. I'd be careful before watching this video:



Think of the disquiet you get from being around someone who is clearly mentally ill yet maintains some form of facade... unexpected disfigurement you don't notice until you're very close... seeing a mannequin you think is a person until they don't react to you. If our lack of telepathy causes this sort of reaction from the Loroi at large AND we pose a threat to their own self-image (and the image they have projected to other races), then we might be in trouble.

EDIT: Is there a reason the [url] and [youtube] aren't working?

harlequin2262
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by harlequin2262 »

Considering that the Loroi don't trigger OUR Uncanny Valley responses, I'd say we're on the good side of the uncanny valley.

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Razor One
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Razor One »

Galactic Scholar wrote:
As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.
I was just about to get into circumstances that the Loroi might see a need for xenocide, but one point at a time. I am just trying to walk you though my thought process here, that's all. :)

Can I interpret the above post as a soft yes?
The likelihood is entirely dependent on the circumstances in question. Answering the question as a yes or no without establishing circumstances is putting the cart before the horse.

In short; there is insufficient data for a meaningful answer to your question.
orion1836 wrote: <<Snip>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI
<<Snip>>
EDIT: Is there a reason the and [youtube] aren't working?[/quote] ... ley Videos[/code]

Result: Most Uncanny Valley Videos

Alternatively:

Code: Select all

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI[/url]
Result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

You can also just paste the link straight in without tags, like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

To embed Youtube video's, use the following:

Code: Select all

[youtube]IM82RzN0urI[/youtube]
Result:



The key part to getting the youtube embedding to work is to paste the alphanumeric section of a youtube link that follows after the v= part, indicated in bold: youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

Put that bolded section in a youtube tag and you're golden.
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dragoongfa
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by dragoongfa »

The uncanny valley angle is interesting but I don't think that humans trigger it fully, partially maybe but not fully. To fully trigger the uncanny valley one has to be very 'human' looking but still appear blatantly unnatural. Humans are complete 'blanks' telepathically but all other Loroi senses have to perceive Alex as natural, some Loroi (Like Stillstorm) may believe that Alex is a spy but they aren't really sold on him being unnatural and thus a resident of the uncanny valley; Stillstorm's reactions would be far more severe if Alex was in the uncanny valley, in fact Alex would probably be dead if that was the case.

To draw a parallel, the Loroi probably perceive Alex in the same way we would perceive someone who is acting very secretive and always tries (and succeeds) in not drawing much if any attention to themselves. Whoever has run into such a person knows what I mean, it's actually a full blown stealth mode in real life if you aren't actively looking for that particular someone. We find such behavior creepy and relatively unnatural but we don't consider it inhumanely unnatural, just odd enough to trigger a basic guard stance but not really threatening.

Logannion
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Logannion »

Galactic Scholar wrote:Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?
To put it in context you might comprehend:

America has nuked its enemies in the past =/= America will nuke all hostile countries in the future

As Razor One pointed out, you can always use the its just a matter of time argument, but to be contextually honest, you need to judge on a case-by-case basis, as our main point of contention isn't will the Loroi commit xenocide but will the Loroi commit xenocide on Humanity.

Will America ever decide to just nuke ISIS and get the whole messy affair over with? Depends. On a lot of things. But again, its called the nuclear option because it is not an option that you take unless there is both clear provocation and dire threat. TBH your stance is so ridiculous I thought you were just making a joke until you actually tried to defend it.

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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by Galactic Scholar »

The likelihood is entirely dependent on the circumstances in question. Answering the question as a yes or no without establishing circumstances is putting the cart before the horse.

In short; there is insufficient data for a meaningful answer to your question.
I disagree, we have all the information we need. The Loroi have used genocide twice in the past and the last time with the Tithric it was hailed as a major victory. Arioch has stated in the comic that extermination is the likely fate of the loser of this war and possibly even their client states as well. I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think our conversation is sadly at an end.

I humbly suggest that you and other moderates refrain from calling those who post on your forums fools, it may have a negative affect on your future Patreon cash flow.

To everyone else commenting on these posts, I'm just trying to explain my thought process to a moderator who called me a fool. That's all. I was going to get into MOO's bio weapons category and how they can be used to waste a planet's population while simultaneously leaving valuable planetary buildings intact at the cost to a hit in diplomacy but I do not see a point in that now.
Last edited by Galactic Scholar on Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

raistlin34
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Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!

Post by raistlin34 »

Ok, leaving aside the pointless genocidal option, what will be me most likely outcome for Humanity after first contact and assuming the Shells have been already dealt with? Vassal state, for example?

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