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Page 117: I will demonstrate! 
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Arioch wrote:
Let's try to imagine a scene of a foreign diplomat walking into the US State Department in Washington.

State Department Official: Can I help you?
Diplomat: Yes, I'm here to establish diplomatic relations on behalf of my country, Zooland.
State Department Official: Zooland? We have no listing for that nation. Where is it located?
Diplomat: I'm afraid I can't tell you that.
State Department Official: Sorry? What?
Diplomat: We don't trust you yet, so I'm afraid I can't tell you where our country is located.
State Department Official: ...How are we supposed to establish formal diplomatic relations if you won't even tell us where your country is located?
Diplomat: Here is the location of a van waiting on the edge of town. If you go there, they will blindfold you and take you to our country. Then you can speak to our leadership.
State Department Official: I'm going to stop talking to you now.


I am pretty sure that Diplomat would have a few new friends in matching black combat gear. Very stylish high fashion

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:42 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
dex drako wrote:
the biggest problem with the genocide idea is that it makes no sense from a story telling perspective.

the comic is about Alex and his quest to find out who destroyed his ship, in fact the whole Loroi/Umiak war will likely be eclipsed by this quest by the end of the story. honestly there is no way for Alex to win a war for the loroi but he could give both the loroi and umiak an enemy they can only fight together. ( most likely by being able to "see" past what ever tech the umiak use to clock their ships which will be like what ever the true enemy uses)

this would set up humanity with a lot of brownie points when this is all over


Generally speaking, I'm much more worried for the orgus's well being since from a story telling perspective it can go either way in fact it might bring Alex down a notch if he fails preventing him from being a perfect diplomat, since their fate is also in Alex's hands and Humanity not being a full union member generally means whatever happens to the the Orgus in Umiak space once the Loroi gains ground is out of their hands.


Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:57 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
The Orgus were violently subjugated, the Loroi won't punish them for that.

Personally I think that the Orgus will be given a 'paroled' Union membership for a few years before becoming full Union members, on an equal footing with the Barsam, the Neridi and other non subjugated Union races. Hell even subjugated Union races (the Delrias being a prime example) are given enhanced privileges if they behave nicely.

From an economic and self preservation perceptive the Orgus and other violently subjugated races will benefit greatly by becoming full Union members. They will be given resources for reconstruction, have enhanced trading opportunities and they will have Loroi fleets for protection.

The ones who will suffer a LOT in case of a Loroi victory are the Umiak. Maybe the Loroi will wipe them out to the last Shell but maybe they will cull the vast majority and just quarantine the rest on a handful low gravity planets.

The willing allies of the Umiak will be subjugated, the Morat and others like them; seeing how the two powers treat their subjugated populations the Loroi may be better overlords provided they are not angered any further than they currently are. Adding how the Umiak treat their allies? It may even be an upgrade of short.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
dragoongfa wrote:
Maybe the Loroi will wipe them out to the last Shell


I don't think there's any “maybe” involved. The way I see it, leaving even one bug alive means a nonzero chance for the Umiak Hierarchy to come back and bite them in the ass hard.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Hālian wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
Maybe the Loroi will wipe them out to the last Shell


I don't think there's any “maybe” involved. The way I see it, leaving even one bug alive means a nonzero chance for the Umiak Hierarchy to come back and bite them in the ass hard.


True but it would be a great way to 'get past' the whole 'murderous and genocidal telepathic race' label that has been stuck on to show a small modicum of mercy even to such a despicable enemy. I am not talking about letting billions live on industrialized planets but a few hundred millions at most scattered on 2 to 3 planets that were turned into wastelands by Umiak industrialization. Forever monitored with fleets ready to finish them off and forbidden to have anything more advanced than a steam engine.

The Umiak would then become an other ever lasting testament of what happens when you mess with the Loroi beyond certain boundaries. After all, dead bugs say no tales but terrified industrial age bugs on planets that are a living nightmare to scrounge a living on?

Those make a nice point.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Having read how the Mannadi provoked again and again their bigger, and stronger neighbours, and my previous post quoting the Insider-info about the Mannadi, And seeing how Razor One said the same, I'm imagining some Loroi very much liking, and being able to relate to, the Latin sentence "Carthago delenda est!".

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
I disagree, we have all the information we need. The Loroi have used genocide twice in the past and the last time with the Tithric it was hailed as a major victory.
It literally was a major victory. Umiak incursions through Tithric space had been one of the most significant threats to the Loroi in the war, and the devastation of Tithric space greatly slowed them.

Galactic Scholar wrote:
To everyone else commenting on these posts, I'm just trying to explain my thought process to a moderator who called me a fool. That's all. I was going to get into MOO's bio weapons category and how they can be used to waste a planet's population while simultaneously leaving valuable planetary buildings intact at the cost to a hit in diplomacy but I do not see a point in that now.
You clearly mis-value the diplomatic costs if you think that would have been a compelling argument. The US developed equivalent nuclear weapons for possible use against the Soviet Union, but never used them because like all other nuclear weapons, even a completely successful use would have been unjustified. If America had been engaged in a "hot war" with the USSR then that equation could have shifted, but Humanity is not at war with the Loroi, so the first example is more relevant.

As Razor said, Humanity would be more compelling in this position than the Loroi.


Razor One wrote:
Should I perhaps use more politically correct language in future?
Your language was clearly fine :p .


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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Razor One I am sorry to hear you say that. I apologize for being unclear, I was responding to around a page of posts covering genocide and it's usages. Here is my thought process.


Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past - Yes

Do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future? - Highly Likely

Has the war reached a critical point? Keep in mind that the Umiak Hierarchy has just unvieled the ability to defeat Loroi Far sensing. Yes

Do you think the existence of Humanity will have a destabilizing or stabilizing effect upon the Loroi Empire at this critical time? Destabilizing

Does humanity occupy valuable territory that would allow one side or another to flank their opponent? Yes

Do the Loroi have a positive or negative reputation? Negative

As a followup, Do you think it likely or unlikely for them to care about further damage to their reputation,
especially if it means winning the war? Or even a chance of winning the war? Unlikely

Have you played Master of Orion? Specifically are you familiar with Master of Orion's bio weapons and their ability to eliminate planetary populations without destroying valuable planetary structures? There are many ways to commit genocide, I'm going into the flavor that would be most useful in the case of Humanity.

Do you think it an unreasonable possibility for the Loroi to attempt to use bio-weapons on humanity in an effort to win the war? Slaying 25 billion (potentially very troublesome!) aliens no one has heard of before to save the lives of their own people, whom they are sworn to protect?

That's basically my thought process on the matter. Just a potential future, it would certainly be dramatic!


Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:11 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:

Do you think the existence of Humanity will have a destabilizing or stabilizing effect upon the Loroi Empire at this critical time? Destabilizing

Does humanity occupy valuable territory that would allow one side or another to flank their opponent? Yes

Do the Loroi have a positive or negative reputation? Negative

As a followup, Do you think it likely or unlikely for them to care about further damage to their reputation,
especially if it means winning the war? Or even a chance of winning the war? Unlikely

Have you played Master of Orion? Specifically are you familiar with Master of Orion's bio weapons and their ability to eliminate planetary populations without destroying valuable planetary structures? There are many ways to commit genocide.

Do you think it an unreasonable possibility for the Loroi to attempt to use bio-weapons on humanity in an effort to win the war? Slaying 25 billion (potentially very troublesome!) aliens no one has heard of before to save the lives of their own people, whom they are sworn to protect?

That's basically my thought process on the matter. Just a potential future, it would certainly be dramatic!


Humanity being the Loroi's template species will likely shake things up for the Loroi on a propaganda and existential front, but the day to day line officer or factory worker is unlikely to be affected by such matters. Politics will shift, the narrative of the war will change, but life for the average Loroi will go on.

What strikes me as just as likely to occur is for the Umiak to be as shaken by this as anyone else. A lot of their propaganda and motivation for the war is based on the Loroi being the inheritors of the Soia, whom they view as enslavers. If it turns out that the Loroi are just another copy-cat species, then their justification for war goes out the window entirely. Indeed, if the Loroi are smart they can spin this to their advantage by turning the Umiak's own narrative against them, since the Loroi are victims of Soia experimentation too.

The value of human territory is debatable, I think, and has been discussed before. Human territory lies at the far end of a vast gulf of empty and undeveloped systems. Any attempt to get there requires a very long logistical train, followed by yet another long logistical train to strike at the flanks of Umiak territory. Historically this is known as the tyranny of distance and makes both attacking and utilising human territory a problem for either side of the conflict. It's not an insurmountable problem, as humans did manage to make the journey after all, but given the resource demands of the war, it's a gamble that has a very serious fail state.

The reputation of the Loroi is not so negative as one would think, else one would need to consider how they maintain their military alliances. A lot of what humans know about the Loroi, prior to contacting them, came from the Orgus, who lived on the Umiak side of the front lines. No doubt they were fed a significant amount of propaganda to paint the Loroi in the worst possible light, disregarding the good and accentuating the negative heavily.

Now I'm not saying that everything bad said about the Loroi are lies. The best kind of propaganda after all is propaganda that is true. But reputation matters for the maintenance of military alliances. Genociding the Tithric certainly cost the Loroi political capital, but their allies could likely see the hard calculus that drove that decision. Failing to remove that front from the war would have resulted in more than just Loroi worlds being raided and bombed, and if it ever comes down to it, most species will want to prioritise their own survival over that of someone else. Thus the case for a Tithric genocide can get a grumbling pass from the Loroi's allies, whilst the Mannadi situation precipitated a political intervention to end it.

That being said, there are two possible cases for a human genocide at the hands of the Loroi. The first is if humanity remains undeclared for the Umiak, the other if they do declare for the Umiak. There is a third 'possible' scenario where humans declare for the Loroi but get genocided anyway, but that requires the Loroi to behave like raving lunatics and will not be considered.

In the case of humans being undeclared for either side, we can see that the costs of doing such are beyond the pale for the Loroi. The distance is far, meaning they'd need to draw off critical logistical and military assets in order to prosecute such a genocide. They'd need enough force to subjugate human naval resources whilst having the fire power necessary to ward off any possible Umiak intervention, whilst also having the necessary logistics to feed, clothe, fuel and arm their vessels for the duration of a protracted extermination campaign in largely unknown systems they don't have maps for. I'd project that they'd need 1 - 3 years to eliminate major human resistance, with 5 - 10 years to ensure that they hit every outpost and intercepted every vessel.

Their allies, knowing humans exist thanks to the Barsam Courier and the Historian Representative, will almost certainly find out that a plan to carry out said genocide is underway, and this in turn will split the Loroi Union. Various factions will see this as an attempt to wipe out evidence of humans being the Loroi template species, unwarranted bloodthirstiness, or simply out and out paranoia, to say nothing of outrage at arbitrarily deciding to wipe out a species that has yet to even have an impact on the war, positive or negative. The political fallout of a successful human genocide, let alone a failed attempt should the worst arise for the Loroi, would break the Union. Their client species would pull out, negotiate a settlement with the Umiak and stand by as the Umiak roll over the greatly weakened Loroi.

The case for the humans siding with the Umiak is essentially the same as above, but with all the political fallout removed. Wiping out the humans becomes a necessary strategic decision especially given their powerful lotai. They're essentially the Tithric 2.0, Electric Boogaloo.

As long as humanity does not declare for the Umiak, the Loroi have zero reasons to opt for genocide, as the cost of doing so is far greater than whatever gains they might make from that.

These are of course the Watsonian justifications for the Loroi not genociding humans. From a Doylist perspective, telling the story about how Alex becomes one of the last humans alive and is forced to be a kept pet of humanity's conquerors at best and a POW at worst is not a very compelling nor exciting story. There is a lot of dramatic tension that has Earth hanging in the balance whilst Alex is the one who is front and center, who's actions or lack thereof may save or doom the Earth. Furthermore, it would make the Loroi characters difficult to relate to and impossible to like. As long as Earth hangs in the balance, we've got great dramatic tension and a reason to invest. If Earth is devastated and humanity wiped out, the story loses that tension entirely.

Regarding Master of Orion, whilst I grant that this comic would likely not exist without it, I think you're reading far too much into the game and applying it to the comic's story. Anyone using a bio-weapon on that scale can and should expect retaliation, diplomatically, economically, and militarily. It's basically a giant neon sign flashing stating "I'm Evil! Whoo!" to every single one of their neighbours. Given the position of the Loroi, the state of the war, and the disposition of their allies, the use of such is precluded if they want to remain in the fight.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
I do get to different conclusions on some of your questions... (marked in red)

Galactic Scholar wrote:
[...]Here is my thought process.


Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past - Yes after having been provoked again and again, violating the trust the Loroi offered the later victims, leading especially in the case of the Tithric to a very disadvantageous situation for the Loroi, which threatened their own survival

Do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future? - Highly Likely from what do you conceive this? It is as likely for any other player in this war. It's not as if the Loroi said that they'll do it, and if they said so, it's just very honest and direct. They also state that the genocided they did commit are seen as a failure of themseves by themselves. A stain in their own history. They are embarassed by it.

Has the war reached a critical point? Keep in mind that the Umiak Hierarchy has just unvieled the ability to defeat Loroi Far sensing. Yes

Do you think the existence of Humanity will have a destabilizing or stabilizing effect upon the Loroi Empire at this critical time? Destabilizing Can't say anything. The Barsam think it'll be destabilising, but I'm not so sure. The Loroi have shown they are pragmatic.

Does humanity occupy valuable territory that would allow one side or another to flank their opponent? Yes No, they are in the Charred Steppes, no-one goes there. There is no remarkable base of industry, no large amount of ressources. And it's a long way off. Even from flanking the opponent. And bringing fleets there to attack the umiak will mean emptying reserve fleets in the home sectors, and thus leaving it all dangerously open.

Do the Loroi have a positive or negative reputation? Negative The Umiak one's is no better. And the Loroi reputation is not really bad - otherwise the honour-oriented Barsam would've left the Loroi Union, and the Historians despite their efforts to be independent, did help the Loroi in their fight against the Umiak, so the Historians do think the Loroi are better than the Umiak. So my conclusion would be Neither, but with a positive bonus respective the alternative

As a followup, Do you think it likely or unlikely for them to care about further damage to their reputation,
especially if it means winning the war? Or even a chance of winning the war? Unlikely If it's about survival, it is more important to survive than to keep your honour. If you're dead and nothing you fought for remains, your honour counts nothing. No other species will say "They did the right thing". You're still dead. All your sisters too.

Have you played Master of Orion? Specifically are you familiar with Master of Orion's bio weapons and their ability to eliminate planetary populations without destroying valuable planetary structures? There are many ways to commit genocide. yes. Yes - but it's useless in the MoO system. It never worked out for me.

Do you think it an unreasonable possibility for the Loroi to attempt to use bio-weapons on humanity in an effort to win the war? Slaying 25 billion (potentially very troublesome!) aliens no one has heard of before to save the lives of their own people, whom they are sworn to protect? yes. Why would you send a fleet to Earth and back just to destroy them? Let them be, the Umiak will do that, and the pitiful effort the Humans can provide the Umiak once subjugated will not make up for the efforts the Umiak did put in to subjugate Humanity. And some races have witnessed the Human named Alexander Jardin. It seemed to me very clear that this whole setup on page 57 is itended to make it known to all, that a new race has been discovered.

That's basically my thought process on the matter. Just a potential future, it would certainly be dramatic!


In any case, it'll be dramatic. That's what happens usually around dramatis personae.
But I'll stay with my previous assessment, that the Loroi will use genocide as a form of ultimate solution if no other solution has been found, after several tries.
They will not gain anything by doing it, nor do they deny the opponent much if they did.

But I understand your thought process. I just come to a few different conclusions along the way.

And if the Loroi knew our history, specifically how we treated the indigenes of the Americas, I bet in their eyes we are far worse off.
The Loroi Union might put a ban on us against becoming members due to our history.
The Loroi Union has been created in the political downfall of the Mennadi desaster, after all. Which developed over the course of Earth years 1415 - 1555 [sup][1][/sup]. 140 years in which we Europeans were surely not better, and we were the provokers, whereas the Mennadi as weaker ones did not know when to stop.

Morally, I would put us far behind the Loroi, when taking the same time-range into account. Good thing they don't know that much about us.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
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Humanity being the Loroi's template species will likely shake things up for the Loroi on a propaganda and existential front, but the day to day line officer or factory worker is unlikely to be affected by such matters. Politics will shift, the narrative of the war will change, but life for the average Loroi will go on.

What strikes me as just as likely to occur is for the Umiak to be as shaken by this as anyone else. A lot of their propaganda and motivation for the war is based on the Loroi being the inheritors of the Soia, whom they view as enslavers. If it turns out that the Loroi are just another copy-cat species, then their justification for war goes out the window entirely. Indeed, if the Loroi are smart they can spin this to their advantage by turning the Umiak's own narrative against them, since the Loroi are victims of Soia experimentation too.


...you think that the knowledge of humanity will affect the Umiak more than the Loroi? And that the Loroi as a species will quickly and easily transition from inheritors of an ancient and powerful precursor empire to petri dish experiments and victims of evil alien precursors? Huh?

I... I don't.... I don't understand your thinking at all. Humanity showing up is about as devastating to the Loroi mythology as Jesus Christ being proven to not have existed would be for Christianity. It cuts the Loroi mythology off at the knee. The Barsam ambassador considered the matter so important he brought it up during their first contact.

I need to digest this, bbl.


Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:20 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
...you think that the knowledge of humanity will affect the Umiak more than the Loroi? And that the Loroi as a species will quickly and easily transition from inheritors of an ancient and powerful precursor empire to petri dish experiments and victims of evil alien precursors? Huh?

I... I don't.... I don't understand your thinking at all. Humanity showing up is about as devastating to the Loroi mythology as Jesus Christ being proven to not have existed would be for Christianity. It cuts the Loroi mythology off at the knee. The Barsam ambassador considered the matter so important he brought it up during their first contact.

I need to digest this, bbl.


Beyond being expansionist to a fault, the Umiak tend to hold the Loroi claim of Soia ancestry against them;

Arioch wrote:
Grayhome wrote:
What do the Nissek, Umiak and Historians think of the Soia?

Nissek are typical in that they had knowledge of the existence of precursor empires (through their ruins and artifacts), but little detailed information on them, and so these elements were worked into local myths and legends. They now recognize these myths for what they are, and have no particular favored view as to who the Soia really were. The Nissek are not particularly impressed by Loroi/Barsam/Neridi or Delrias/Morat claims of being scions of ancient empires.

The Umiak think of the Soia as alien agents who helped their ancient oppressors to keep them in slavery. The Umiak see no reason to disbelieve the Loroi claim of Soia ancestry, and hold this fact against the Loroi.

The Historians collect information but disseminate very little, and in particular avoid the subject of the precursor empires, and so their views on the Soia are not generally known. When asked, they have denied being related to the Soia themselves.


Humanity coming into the picture basically kicks the legs out of the Umiak propaganda machine there, since it proves the Loroi are not Soia descendants.

As far as Loroi mythology goes, I don't think that styling themselves as Soia descendants has a major spiritual or cultural bearing for them. It's nationalistic rhetoric at the most, much like how certain countries claim to be the best at various things and are both manifestly and demonstrably not. Those that are serious about being Soia descendants will either switch tracks to being Soia inheritors, or simply ignore the inconvenient truth and double down regardless. Loroi are very... human, in that manner.

As for Jesus not being real... That really only applies to hardcore biblical literalists, which are a (hopefully) tiny fraction of the population. Jesus actual factual existence, whether true or false, should not matter to the average Christian. What does matter is the message; Love thy Neighbour, Turn the Other Cheek, Forgiveness, etc. etc. Jesus was never important except in the broadest theological sense. His message to the people of the world was important, and if more people heeded his actual words instead of what they imagined he said, the world would be a better place. The kind of person that would be shaken by Jesus being proven conclusively as having not existed are the kinds of people who never had any real faith anyhow, and likely only use the religion and the book to justify their own personal biases beneath the veneer of legitimacy that religion provides.

Says the atheist, of course. :lol:

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Razor One wrote:
Galactic Scholar wrote:
...you think that the knowledge of humanity will affect the Umiak more than the Loroi? And that the Loroi as a species will quickly and easily transition from inheritors of an ancient and powerful precursor empire to petri dish experiments and victims of evil alien precursors?.


Beyond being expansionist to a fault, the Umiak tend to hold the Loroi claim of Soia ancestry against them;

Arioch wrote:
Grayhome wrote:
What do the Nissek, Umiak and Historians think of the Soia?

[...]

The Umiak think of the Soia as alien agents who helped their ancient oppressors to keep them in slavery. The Umiak see no reason to disbelieve the Loroi claim of Soia ancestry, and hold this fact against the Loroi.


Humanity coming into the picture basically kicks the legs out of the Umiak propaganda machine there, since it proves the Loroi are not Soia descendants.

The new Umiak spin will be, that the Loroi are one of the Soia races ceated to fight and oppress others. The difference is marginal, and it'll still be held against the Loroi. It'll still be Soia ancestry.

The Historians not being descendants of the Soia themselves?
Sounds like are descendants of the Soia computers. Minor difference, but explains the chosen wording of "themselves". They are not descendants of the Soia biological entities...

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
...you think that the knowledge of humanity will affect the Umiak more than the Loroi? And that the Loroi as a species will quickly and easily transition from inheritors of an ancient and powerful precursor empire to petri dish experiments and victims of evil alien precursors? Huh?

I... I don't.... I don't understand your thinking at all. Humanity showing up is about as devastating to the Loroi mythology as Jesus Christ being proven to not have existed would be for Christianity. It cuts the Loroi mythology off at the knee. The Barsam ambassador considered the matter so important he brought it up during their first contact.

I need to digest this, bbl.


Loroi worship their ancestors, although they do have their own folklore. The Barsam well I can't recall Arioch going into much detail about their religion, but they're very fundamentalist so important revelations to the foundation of one's beliefs may affect them more.


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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
hi hi

There is a known race that mirrors the Barsam in the same way that Humans mirror the Loroi, the Nibiren. The Barsam are dismissive of the Loroi's claims of direct lineage, and the existence of Humans would help further their case that the Loroi were engineered parts of the Soia-Liron ecosystem just like they were. The subject of Soia-Liron biology and heritage seems to be controversial between the different Loroi Union members.


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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

There is a known race that mirrors the Barsam in the same way that Humans mirror the Loroi, the Nibiren. The Barsam are dismissive of the Loroi's claims of direct lineage, and the existence of Humans would help further their case that the Loroi were engineered parts of the Soia-Liron ecosystem just like they were. The subject of Soia-Liron biology and heritage seems to be controversial between the different Loroi Union members.


It's not just controversial but a quasi-religious item to the Loroi, one of the cornerstones of their society humanity is shaking at. Since they didn't seem to have any template species - so far - they thought they'd be carrying on the Soia-Liron legacy and it would give them the right to rule by providence.

And that makes humans that dangerous, just because of their existence they pose a threat to Loroi rulership. And we do know what politicians do when they feel their power base threatened or questioned.


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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Not only that.
They believe they are original descendants, because the Soia are known to have been telepaths. As no other telepathic race exists, the Loroi must be their true descendants.

And since they remain the only ones with telepathy, they remain to be the only true descendants.

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
And now there is an upstart species from a backwater planet the whole 'civilized' galactic society never heard of being the living proof that their beliefs might be completely wrong, that they're not at the top of the totem pole as they're believed to be. It's not just Loroi society humans would be destabilizing, but the entirety of the Union, since the client races could rightfully challenge their rule.

And Loroi seem to be as similar to humans enough so that they would react the same as humans do when faced with inconvenient truths... try to ignore them or sweep them under the rug. The higher someone is in ranks or in garnering respect from others, he or she is more set in their ways and less likely to question them. Beryl for example looks like to be most open to exploration (get your minds out of the gutter, not THAT kind of exploration... :) ), Tempo remains quite neutral, keeping all bases covered, and Stillstorm is dead set against such a preposterous idea. Following that trend, the prospects look quite grim for Alex and humanity as a whole.

For me, I do have an idea how the story could play out, but I'd better keep it to myself or at least out of this thread. Far be it from me to claim to be able to look into Arioch's cards...


Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:06 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
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Humanity coming into the picture basically kicks the legs out of the Umiak propaganda machine there, since it proves the Loroi are not Soia descendants.

As far as Loroi mythology goes, I don't think that styling themselves as Soia descendants has a major spiritual or cultural bearing for them. It's nationalistic rhetoric at the most, much like how certain countries claim to be the best at various things and are both manifestly and demonstrably not. Those that are serious about being Soia descendants will either switch tracks to being Soia inheritors, or simply ignore the inconvenient truth and double down regardless. Loroi are very... human, in that manner.


Ok, I disagree. I think we've gotten just about as far as we can on this topic then.

Quote:
As for Jesus not being real... That really only applies to hardcore biblical literalists, which are a (hopefully) tiny fraction of the population. Jesus actual factual existence, whether true or false, should not matter to the average Christian. What does matter is the message; Love thy Neighbour, Turn the Other Cheek, Forgiveness, etc. etc. Jesus was never important except in the broadest theological sense. His message to the people of the world was important, and if more people heeded his actual words instead of what they imagined he said, the world would be a better place. The kind of person that would be shaken by Jesus being proven conclusively as having not existed are the kinds of people who never had any real faith anyhow, and likely only use the religion and the book to justify their own personal biases beneath the veneer of legitimacy that religion provides.

Says the atheist, of course. :lol:


Have you heard of the Atheist Experience and Matt Dillahunty? He is an ex-fundamentalist Christian turned atheist. He analyzes the character of Jesus and it's quite an interesting take. He also does debates on and concerning Jesus and his dissection of the Sermon on the mount is also very good.

I would caution everyone about Jesus. He said some good things, he said some "meh" things, he said some downright evil things. All in all, not the best roll model for anyone.


Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:06 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
novius wrote:
And now there is an upstart species from a backwater planet the whole 'civilized' galactic society never heard of being the living proof that their beliefs might be completely wrong, that they're not at the top of the totem pole as they're believed to be. It's not just Loroi society humans would be destabilizing, but the entirety of the Union, since the client races could rightfully challenge their rule.

And Loroi seem to be as similar to humans enough so that they would react the same as humans do when faced with inconvenient truths... try to ignore them or sweep them under the rug. The higher someone is in ranks or in garnering respect from others, he or she is more set in their ways and less likely to question them. Beryl for example looks like to be most open to exploration (get your minds out of the gutter, not THAT kind of exploration... :) ), Tempo remains quite neutral, keeping all bases covered, and Stillstorm is dead set against such a preposterous idea. Following that trend, the prospects look quite grim for Alex and humanity as a whole.

For me, I do have an idea how the story could play out, but I'd better keep it to myself or at least out of this thread. Far be it from me to claim to be able to look into Arioch's cards...


I think the Loroi aren´t in charge of the Union because of her beliefs as Soian appointed successors, but because they have the biggest stick. The funny looking apes from the backwater planet aren´t going to change that.


Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:45 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
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I think the Loroi aren´t in charge of the Union because of her beliefs as Soian appointed successors, but because they have the biggest stick. The funny looking apes from the backwater planet aren´t going to change that.


The biggest stick is worthless without the warrior to wield it, and you can't use a warrior that's having a mental breakdown. Civilizations are built ideals. When those ideals are destroyed, turmoil follows.


Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:05 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:

Ok, I disagree. I think we've gotten just about as far as we can on this topic then.



That's fair, Arioch hasn't commented much on this aspect of their society from memory, and it hasn't come up much in the comic beyond some comments from the Barsam Courier, so it's natural that opinions would differ in the absence of any real hard facts.

Quote:

Have you heard of the Atheist Experience and Matt Dillahunty? He is an ex-fundamentalist Christian turned atheist. He analyzes the character of Jesus and it's quite an interesting take. He also does debates on and concerning Jesus and his dissection of the Sermon on the mount is also very good.

I would caution everyone about Jesus. He said some good things, he said some "meh" things, he said some downright evil things. All in all, not the best roll model for anyone.


Yeah, I watched a fair few Atheist Experience vids back the day, good mix of thoughtful, entertaining and comedic depending on who's calling, though I haven't actually watched any recently, should probably pick it back up at some point.

You're right about Jesus not being 100% on all things. If the account is accurate (lol), then he's very much a product of his time trying to send out a message intended for his time. It shouldn't be surprising that Bronze Age / Early Iron Age ethics don't necessarily shine bright millennia later.

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Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:41 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Razor One wrote:
You're right about Jesus not being 100% on all things. If the account is accurate (lol), then he's very much a product of his time trying to send out a message intended for his time. It shouldn't be surprising that Bronze Age / Early Iron Age ethics don't necessarily shine bright millennia later.
https://www.google.com/search?q=11+nations+of+america

Your "100%" is defined by culture and the various consequences thereof. Whatever you think Jesus was wrong on, a significant number of people think the contrary, and what you think he was right on, yet again a large number think the contrary. It always annoys me when people go ragging on subjects like this without realizing that they themselves are doing the same as they are looking down on.


Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:41 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
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Your "100%" is defined by culture and the various consequences thereof. Whatever you think Jesus was wrong on, a significant number of people think the contrary, and what you think he was right on, yet again a large number think the contrary. It always annoys me when people go ragging on subjects like this without realizing that they themselves are doing the same as they are looking down on.


I think you are misunderstanding my and Razor's criticism, we're not just being contrarian and we're not just ragging on Christianity. We are analyzing and dissecting the good, the bad and the "meh" of Jesus and saying that Jesus gave some terrible advice. For example slavery is always bad. It's bad for the slaves, the slavers and the slave nation as a whole. Telling slaves to obey their masters is therefore bad advice. Giving no thought toward tomorrow is also terrible idea.

Whether people agree with us or not on those two topics is irrelevant. If they disagree they are simply wrong. We are physical beings inhabiting a physical world which is governed by physical laws. There are right and wrong answers in how we conduct ourselves as a nation. Jesus, and by extension Christianity, has some wrong answers, some "meh" answers, and some right answers. Slavery is one of the big ones Christianity gets totally wrong.


Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:07 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
I think you are misunderstanding my and Razor's criticism, we're not just being contrarian and we're not just ragging on Christianity.
No, but you are misunderstanding mine.

Galactic Scholar wrote:
We are analyzing and dissecting the good, the bad and the "meh" of Jesus and saying that Jesus gave some terrible advice. For example slavery is always bad. It's bad for the slaves, the slavers and the slave nation as a whole. Telling slaves to obey their masters is therefore bad advice.
And telling them to rebel would have gotten them killed. Spartacus was famous, but also overrated: that gladiator rebellion did have the possibility of causing real harm to Rome, but primarily it played into the Roman's fears of a slave rebellion (we know that Romans owned slaves, yes; not so often remembered is that slaves were never common in Rome, because the Romans considered them inherently dangerous; this same concern was common within American slaveholders as well, and affected historical perspectives on the Haitian revolution). That is why it was put down so harshly. Furthermore, Christianity was often looked down on as being a foreign religion (because it was in most areas) already: directly opposing e.g. slavery when you were the slave would have made it much worse, especially since it isn't a religion precisely about being released from slavery.

There's also another problem with opposing slavery in that world: it wasn't quite what we're familiar with. As far as I recall slavery was in many ways at least as bad back then as it was during the worst of the US's slavery period, but it was also just the most extreme end of a roughly continuous social structure. We often think of the Roman Republic as a democracy, but in many ways it was more akin to England after the advent of the Magna Carta than to modern America or Britain. There was a sort of system of nobility worked into Roman society, and certain types of relationships literally placed legal obligations upon both benefactor and beneficiary: slavery was just an extreme case of this. And this rule extended beyond Roman society, to most of the ancient world (maybe all, haven't looked into that particular subject), up through every "developed" society between then and now (serfs usually had it better than slaves, but that seriously did vary over time and location; Communism is really fit only for ants and similar, yet the USSR really was an improvement over Tsarist Russia), and arguably even today on a world-wide scale (any time that an obligation such as "don't murder" is placed on someone, that moves you ever so minutely towards the "slavery" end of the spectrum; for every such obligation removed, you move towards the "anomie" end of the spectrum; there are no inherent categories, and the optimum balance depends on what the beholder considers important).

At any rate, I challenge you to look at e.g. Enron, or the coal barons of the US, and not see the same problems as slavery in a diluted form. Slavery lead to many social ills, but slavery didn't produce them, it just made them easier. The problems exist even today, and primarily in social form.

Galactic Scholar wrote:
Giving no thought toward tomorrow is also terrible idea.
But in context it has a point: you can die unexpectedly, so don't leave important matters unfinished.

Galactic Scholar wrote:
Whether people agree with us or not on those two topics is irrelevant. If they disagree they are simply wrong.
We are physical beings inhabiting a physical world which is governed by physical laws. There are right and wrong answers in how we conduct ourselves as a nation. Jesus, and by extension Christianity, has some wrong answers, some "meh" answers, and some right answers. Slavery is one of the big ones Christianity gets totally wrong.
Now here's what I want you to actually think about: how do we decide what the right and wrong answers are? Christianity follows some mix of the Bible and doctrine, varying between individual groups. American society has mostly been following individual perceptions of the most commonly accepted norm (I'm not certain about right now; I think we're in a transition period, and in the absence of any recognizable rules, I don't want to try predicting anything). If we try Darwinism then we probably need to reduce access to medical care for the sake of improving the quality of the human race (genetic pool or social pool, take your pick; "survival of the fittest" doesn't need to be picky), whereas Humanism would say the opposite, and some variants of Consequentialism that conditionally embrace various forms of slavery probably exist.

And which one you think is right depends on your starting perspective, and personal experiences. Do we optimize for right now, or the far future? Do we optimize for beneficiaries (Humans) or system (Environment)? Do we optimize for freedom (anarchism) or productivity (authoritarianism)? Do we trust the lower classes? Do we trust the middle classes? Do we trust the higher classes? Do we optimize for representative leadership (democracy) or focused leadership (monarchy)?

Some perspectives (e.g. "far future", "system", "productivity", "trustworthiness floats", "focused leadership") can potentially favor slavery (regardless of whether it's called that) whereas others (e.g. "right now", "beneficiaries", "freedom", "trustworthiness averages", "representative leadership") will almost always abhor slavery.

This may seem laughable (I don't think it's been mostly intentional recently), but Hollywood occasionally has a habit of producing scenarios where slavery-by-another-name might be useful to improve things. In Avatar, the Earth has been ruined by over-exploitation, but if the indulgence of the population is the problem, then forcing the population to both cut back and repair the environment is inherently a solution if you can implement it: and a civilian draft enforced by law or force (or both) inherently falls on the "slavery" side of the spectrum, and only grows closer if you throw in "the descendants of the most damaging actors have to work the hardest" and similar factors. Similarly, the scenario of declining fertility in e.g. "A Handmaid's Tale" can result in some form of sex slavery making sense if your priority is the survival of the human race, while the prioritization of human fairness and equality can result in the ultra-prescribed society of "The Giver". Bizarre extremes, yes, but extremes are useful for shedding light on differences.


tl;dr: Take multiple people with the same philosophy, and you'll get multiple answers to any question. Take the same number with different philosophies and you'll get even more answers. And many of those answers will seem incompatible with each other, or to some of the answerers completely illogical.


Edited in: Riddle me this - what is the definition of "slave"? The only reliable answer I know of is "someone forced to take or not take actions regardless of their own choice".


Last edited by Absalom on Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:40 pm
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