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Page 117: I will demonstrate! 
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
While I agree Humanity endangers the Loroi cultural identity (and propaganda) simply by existing, I find it impossible that the Loroi will ever default into "Genocide", be it species wide or simply to the point that Humanity collapses.

IIRC both times the Loroi have been pushed to do so, it was with clear, constant, and enduring provocation from the other side.

Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.


Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:31 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
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Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.


I betcha five bucks the Loroi send a warfleet armed with antimatter bombs and bio-weapons made from the dead human diplomats they took from the Belllarmine.


Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:04 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
This is getting kinda ridiculous.
Even is we assume it's something Loroi actually care about (because they don't look very religious), the worst thing that existence of humanity does, is to imply that Loroi were not first race of Soia-Liron, which as far I can tell, nobody but hardcore nationalists care about. And evidence for them being first was sketchy at best, and by sketchy, I mean non-existent. Or even contrary. They did not leave any fossils except very late period of Soia Empire.
In any case, Loroi are too busy to have time to get angry something to far removed from either daily life or realpolitik machinations of waging war.


Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:24 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Quote:
Even with the War going on, I can see the Loroi sending out punitive expeditions, or resorting to aggressive gunboat diplomacy, but unprovoked species level genocide? No. As Imperialistic and militaristic some of the loroi are, they're not xenophobic to a fault.


I betcha five bucks the Loroi send a warfleet armed with antimatter bombs and bio-weapons made from the dead human diplomats they took from the Belllarmine.


A fool and his money are easily parted. :P

The Loroi are not a monolithic society. We've seen only a vanishingly small fraction of that society under wartime pressure, and to make sweeping judgments about their likely actions based on that tiny fraction is as erroneous as Stillstorm's assumption that Alex was an Umiak attempt at subterfuge, despite that assumption being based on prior experience.

Politics will decide whether or not the Loroi take any kind of military action against Earth, and unlike the Tithric genocide, the politics of the Loroi Union do not allow the Emperor or any line officer with enough clout to matter to make that kind of unilateral call. You may get some small faction calling for Earth's annexation to prevent them from siding with the Umiak, you may even get an even smaller faction calling for wiping Humans out, but they're going to be one small faction in a much vaster pool who will take towards more pragmatic and sensible options.

TL;DR: You need to be actively pushing the Loroi towards being genocidal, and humans haven't pushed the Loroi a single inch in that direction.

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Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:14 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Razor, are you a forum Moderator? Just wanted to confirm.


Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:28 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Razor, are you a forum Moderator? Just wanted to confirm.


Yes, but don't let that deter you from disagreeing with me, I mostly just clean up spam when bots decide to invade the forum. As a general rule, I recuse myself from moderating discussions I'm a part of, since it's difficult to be objective when you're involved.

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Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:45 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Cool, let me just walk you through my thought process that lead to my previous comment.

Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past?


Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:40 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Cool, let me just walk you through my thought process that lead to my previous comment.

Have the Loroi committed xenocide in the past?


Yes, on the Mannadi and the Tithric.

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Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:05 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?


Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:17 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
There's a better question lurking somewhere in the shadow of the one you asked, waiting to come out. Probably something like "do you think it likely or unlikely that there are actions that will prompt the Loroi to commit xenocide?"


Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:18 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
The previous circumstances of their genocide were NOT philosophical, but based upon an existential threat to their species, based on malicious sustained actions, and active involvement on the part of the Umiak.

The Humans raise certainly abstract questions concerning the origins of the Loroi.

The Loroi do not rule because they have a neat origin mythology. They rule because they've got the guns, and the ships, and the technology. Their origin is philosophically interesting, but fairly immaterial to the realpolitik of the region.


Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:28 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?


As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.

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Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:55 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Quote:
As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.


I was just about to get into circumstances that the Loroi might see a need for xenocide, but one point at a time. I am just trying to walk you though my thought process here, that's all. :)

Can I interpret the above post as a soft yes?


Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:48 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
I think a better question would be to ask how the Loroi view Humanity's "otherness."

Assuming their psychology is at least somewhat close to ours (and by everything seen so far in the comic, it appears to be), I see two possible reactions. Either we appear to be less of an "other" when compared to the other races they know, or we fall into the uncanny valley.

People (and soldiers by extension) need to be able to de-humanize in order to kill. Some examples from WWII: "I'm not leveling Dresden, a place that looks a lot the city where I grew up, I'm killing a bunch of Krauts who are supplying the Nazi war machine," or "I'm not brutally ending the lives of American soldiers on the Bataan Death March, I'm just giving a bunch of soldiers who surrendered the treatment that cowards deserve."

The same logic applies to killing things that look like you. It's pretty easy to smash a bug. A mouse... much less so, and forget about a cat or a dog. If the Loroi look at us and see themselves, I think it would be very difficult for them to glass our planets for any reason, societal mythology be damned.

HOWEVER, if we fall into their uncanny valley in a disturbing way, our similarity could be our undoing. Seeing something that looks like you yet is inherently NOT you can invoke a threat response. I'd be careful before watching this video:



Think of the disquiet you get from being around someone who is clearly mentally ill yet maintains some form of facade... unexpected disfigurement you don't notice until you're very close... seeing a mannequin you think is a person until they don't react to you. If our lack of telepathy causes this sort of reaction from the Loroi at large AND we pose a threat to their own self-image (and the image they have projected to other races), then we might be in trouble.

EDIT: Is there a reason the [url] and [youtube] aren't working?


Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:31 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Considering that the Loroi don't trigger OUR Uncanny Valley responses, I'd say we're on the good side of the uncanny valley.


Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:03 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Quote:
As Absalom and Harlequin pointed out, there are circumstances which prompt the Loroi into acts of xenocide which may make them likely to commit such in the future. It would depend on the circumstances of a given species whether the Loroi would (attempt) to wipe them out or not.


I was just about to get into circumstances that the Loroi might see a need for xenocide, but one point at a time. I am just trying to walk you though my thought process here, that's all. :)

Can I interpret the above post as a soft yes?


The likelihood is entirely dependent on the circumstances in question. Answering the question as a yes or no without establishing circumstances is putting the cart before the horse.

In short; there is insufficient data for a meaningful answer to your question.

orion1836 wrote:
<<Snip>>
[url=Most Uncanny Valley Videos]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI[/url]
<<Snip>>
EDIT: Is there a reason the [url] and [youtube] aren't working?


URL's are used thusly:

Code:
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI]Most Uncanny Valley Videos[/url]


Result: Most Uncanny Valley Videos

Alternatively:

Code:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI[/url]


Result: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

You can also just paste the link straight in without tags, like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

To embed Youtube video's, use the following:

Code:
[youtube]IM82RzN0urI[/youtube]


Result:



The key part to getting the youtube embedding to work is to paste the alphanumeric section of a youtube link that follows after the v= part, indicated in bold: youtube.com/watch?v=IM82RzN0urI

Put that bolded section in a youtube tag and you're golden.

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:27 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
The uncanny valley angle is interesting but I don't think that humans trigger it fully, partially maybe but not fully. To fully trigger the uncanny valley one has to be very 'human' looking but still appear blatantly unnatural. Humans are complete 'blanks' telepathically but all other Loroi senses have to perceive Alex as natural, some Loroi (Like Stillstorm) may believe that Alex is a spy but they aren't really sold on him being unnatural and thus a resident of the uncanny valley; Stillstorm's reactions would be far more severe if Alex was in the uncanny valley, in fact Alex would probably be dead if that was the case.

To draw a parallel, the Loroi probably perceive Alex in the same way we would perceive someone who is acting very secretive and always tries (and succeeds) in not drawing much if any attention to themselves. Whoever has run into such a person knows what I mean, it's actually a full blown stealth mode in real life if you aren't actively looking for that particular someone. We find such behavior creepy and relatively unnatural but we don't consider it inhumanely unnatural, just odd enough to trigger a basic guard stance but not really threatening.

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:42 am
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
Cool, so do you think it likely or unlikely that the Loroi will commit xenocide in the future?


To put it in context you might comprehend:

America has nuked its enemies in the past =/= America will nuke all hostile countries in the future

As Razor One pointed out, you can always use the its just a matter of time argument, but to be contextually honest, you need to judge on a case-by-case basis, as our main point of contention isn't will the Loroi commit xenocide but will the Loroi commit xenocide on Humanity.

Will America ever decide to just nuke ISIS and get the whole messy affair over with? Depends. On a lot of things. But again, its called the nuclear option because it is not an option that you take unless there is both clear provocation and dire threat. TBH your stance is so ridiculous I thought you were just making a joke until you actually tried to defend it.


Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:47 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Quote:
The likelihood is entirely dependent on the circumstances in question. Answering the question as a yes or no without establishing circumstances is putting the cart before the horse.

In short; there is insufficient data for a meaningful answer to your question.


I disagree, we have all the information we need. The Loroi have used genocide twice in the past and the last time with the Tithric it was hailed as a major victory. Arioch has stated in the comic that extermination is the likely fate of the loser of this war and possibly even their client states as well. I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think our conversation is sadly at an end.

I humbly suggest that you and other moderates refrain from calling those who post on your forums fools, it may have a negative affect on your future Patreon cash flow.

To everyone else commenting on these posts, I'm just trying to explain my thought process to a moderator who called me a fool. That's all. I was going to get into MOO's bio weapons category and how they can be used to waste a planet's population while simultaneously leaving valuable planetary buildings intact at the cost to a hit in diplomacy but I do not see a point in that now.


Last edited by Galactic Scholar on Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Ok, leaving aside the pointless genocidal option, what will be me most likely outcome for Humanity after first contact and assuming the Shells have been already dealt with? Vassal state, for example?


Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:50 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
To everyone else commenting on these posts, I'm just trying to explain my thought process to a moderator who called me a fool. That's all.


The use of that proverb seemed pretty playful to me Galactic Scholar, you don't need to defend yourself so strongly you made a playful bet and it was called. You believe that the Loroi will send exterminatus upon Humanity because they already did it twice, and Razor One is confident you'll lose that bet because you're assuming Humanty's existance is enough to provoke such a response from the Loroi and not the constant hostile provocations the last two races did. I'm confidant the Umiak will be wiped out, but Humanity specifically falls entirely on Alex's shoulders. At the very least if Alex gets close with the Barsam and Historians during the story political pressure will back us up significantly.


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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
raistlin34 wrote:
Ok, leaving aside the pointless genocidal option, what will be me most likely outcome for Humanity after first contact and assuming the Shells have been already dealt with? Vassal state, for example?


Depends on how grateful the Loroi will be.

I doubt that humans will ever come close to trust an alien to be their protector nor would the Loroi accept any other Union race compete with them on the martial aspect (i.e. have proper warships) so humanity becoming a willing member of the Union is a long shot.

My guess is that humanity remains independent and on relatively friendly terms with the Union for some time, provided that Alex is really the one who saves their collective blue asses. The Loroi don't strike me as an ungrateful race. They are a polity that strikes hard and with deadly force when pushed hard enough but not one that back stabs someone who did right by them.

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:25 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:

I disagree, we have all the information we need. The Loroi have used genocide twice in the past and the last time with the Tithric it was hailed as a major victory. Arioch has stated in the comic that extermination is the likely fate of the loser of this war and possibly even their client states as well. I don't mean this in a mean way, but I think our conversation is sadly at an end.



Regarding the Loroi's use of genocide in the past, in the case of the Tithric:

Quote:

Situated in a precarious location on the coreward end of the Steppes front, the Tithric desired to remain neutral in the war, but did not have the political unity to make neutrality work. Local systems seeking to profit from the overtures offered by both sides made independent deals, in some cases even permitting Umiak forces to pass through their territory to raid Loroi systems. The Loroi pressed the Tithric to put a stop to this, but the central government was too weak and corrupt to control its own systems, leaving the Loroi little option but to conduct interdiction raids into Tithric space. These attacks finally unified the Tithric politically and prompted the formation of a stronger central government (and a formal alliance with the Umiak), but it was too late: the Loroi under Admiral Sunfall razed the entire region. Though destroyed as a functioning nation, the Tithric are not extinct. Some refugees escaped into Umiak territory, and survivors continue to eke out an existence on the devastated Tithric worlds, mostly cut off from the interstellar community.



They carpet bombed the Tithric worlds to deny their mortal enemy a resource base and staging point for further attacks, after they aided, abetted, and then formally allied with the Umiak.

Regarding the Mannadi;

Quote:

In their day, the Mannadi were bold explorers and adventurers who had built a small interstellar sphere of influence. The Mannadi respected and feared the growing power of the Loroi Empire enough not to attack them directly, and even prompted a brief alliance between the two powers. Unfortunately, the Mannadi could never be content as ordinary members of the family of nations, and their ambition led them into continuing acts of aggression against the Neridi and Pipolsid that eventually drew them into direct conflict with the Loroi. Though never a true match for the Loroi Empire and her allies, the Mannadi nation fought tenaciously and effectively through a series of three bloody and bitter wars with the Loroi, in which the Mannadi made effective use of the remote location of their territory and the severe handicap placed on Loroi forces operating so far from friendly resupply. The Mannadi also had a degree of resistance to Loroi telepathy, which represented a further challenge to the Loroi. By the end of the third war the Loroi eventually occupied the Mannadi worlds, but there was little left of Mannadi infrastructure, and almost nothing left of Loroi patience. Mannadi telepathic resistance made Loroi occupation less effective than they were accustomed to, and when Mannadi insurgents bitterly fought the occupation, the Loroi started simply wiping them out. International outrage at these actions threatened to shatter the Loroi Alliance; only the formation of the Loroi Union ended the threat of a galaxy-wide war and spared the Mannadi from extinction. The Mannadi are not spoken of in Loroi society, and they are rarely seen outside their designated territory, which is quarantined. Mannadi space is the main gateway to the territory of the Historians, but few travel this path.



Required three major wars and serious resistance to occupation after getting thrashed to trigger the beginnings of a xenocide. Stopped by politics.

Humanity is nowhere near the necessary point where genocide is even vaguely likely. The Mannadi had to set three wars in motion and bitterly resist occupation, whilst the Tithric had to be an effectively failed nation located at a strategic point for deep strikes into Loroi territory.

The fact that they've committed genocide before and thus the assumption that they will do it again has little if any weight. It would be simplicity itself to point out the numerous genocides that we ourselves have done to one another as making a case that humans would just as well genocide the Loroi when they get the chance to do so. Furthermore, in the case of the Loroi, there are six centuries of separation between those two genocides, that's two genocides in six hundred years, I daresay if you looked at human history over the last six hundred years you'd find a far higher number than just two. If we accept this line of reasoning, which we shouldn't, it's the humans, not the Loroi, that are genocidal.

If you have a more compelling reason, I'd like to hear it. I'm a fan of honest and reasoned discussion. Weak opinions, ones based on flawed assumptions, bad logic, or gut feelings without evidence, deserve to be knocked down and replaced by better ones, ones that have basis in fact, logic, truth, or reasoned assumptions that follow from available information. Positions that cannot stand to be scrutinised do not deserve to be held onto.

Your opinion doesn't follow from what you've stated. Why would the Loroi genocide humanity? What would allow them to do so? What are the costs and benefits for them in genociding humans out of existence?

Quote:

I humbly suggest that you and other moderates refrain from calling those who post on your forums fools, it may have a negative affect on your future Patreon cash flow.



The only thing that being a mod affords me is a few extra buttons and having to play janitor when the spambots come out to play. People are free to spend their cash how they like, though I daresay anyone who pulls their funding because of a single post on a forum likely would never have ponied up the cash in the first place.

You will note that when I said "A fool and his money are easily parted" I used the :P emoticon, which as I understand it is a near universal sign of a gentle ribbing. Given the commonality of that proverb amongst English speakers and the context of betting money, I assumed that the gentle jocularity of that statement was quite plain. Should I perhaps use more politically correct language in future?

Quote:
To everyone else commenting on these posts, I'm just trying to explain my thought process to a moderator who called me a fool. That's all. I was going to get into MOO's bio weapons category and how they can be used to waste a planet's population while simultaneously leaving valuable planetary buildings intact at the cost to a hit in diplomacy but I do not see a point in that now.


Perhaps if you more clearly elucidated your thought process in a manner that could stand to even a whit of scrutiny I wouldn't regard your position ill considered. Both the Tithric and Mannadi genocides had clear and unique circumstances that brought them about. If you would but make the case for why the Loroi would genocide humanity we might actually make some progress in this discussion, whether it's revealing flawed assumptions or illogical positions on your part, or just as likely, points of view I hadn't considered or are unwittingly ignorant of on mine.

That business aside, regarding a Post-War humanity and relations with the Loroi, I'd imagine much the same as dragoongfa does, an independent but friendly nation. A few isolated human colonies might join the Union if they felt stronger ties to the Loroi over the TCA, but that would arguably be centuries down the road when the two polities have shared borders rather than loads of barren and empty space between them. There's potential for border disputes but I can't imagine them fighting a war over such without major political upheavals on one or both sides, though that is kind of implied in a Post-War Loroi union.

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Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:08 pm
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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
Galactic Scholar wrote:
I humbly suggest that you and other moderates refrain from calling those who post on your forums fools, it may have a negative affect on your future Patreon cash flow.


Son, have you ever heard of something called Wheaton's Law?

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Post Re: Page 117: I will demonstrate!
the biggest problem with the genocide idea is that it makes no sense from a story telling perspective.

the comic is about Alex and his quest to find out who destroyed his ship, in fact the whole Loroi/Umiak war will likely be eclipsed by this quest by the end of the story. honestly there is no way for Alex to win a war for the loroi but he could give both the loroi and umiak an enemy they can only fight together. ( most likely by being able to "see" past what ever tech the umiak use to clock their ships which will be like what ever the true enemy uses)

this would set up humanity with a lot of brownie points when this is all over


Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:37 pm
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