Page 117: I will demonstrate!

[Galactic Scholar]

I'm pretty sure they've all been harshly trained not to reveal it, but to reveal a contact solar system, where the delegates are invited to come to.

Add to that, Alex isn't completely stupid.

I really hope your right... then again, it would add quite the dramatic twist to the story! What would the Loroi do if they had the location (or the general location) of the human home world?

[harlequin2262]

Probably nothing. Earth is in the Bubkiss Sector, Idaho Quadrant. Way out in the space sticks.

[Arioch]

Let's try to imagine a scene of a foreign diplomat walking into the US State Department in Washington.

State Department Official: Can I help you?
Diplomat: Yes, I'm here to establish diplomatic relations on behalf of my country, Zooland.
State Department Official: Zooland? We have no listing for that nation. Where is it located?
Diplomat: I'm afraid I can't tell you that.
State Department Official: Sorry? What?
Diplomat: We don't trust you yet, so I'm afraid I can't tell you where our country is located.
State Department Official: ...How are we supposed to establish formal diplomatic relations if you won't even tell us where your country is located?
Diplomat: Here is the location of a van waiting on the edge of town. If you go there, they will blindfold you and take you to our country. Then you can speak to our leadership.
State Department Official: I'm going to stop talking to you now.

[novius]

It'd be more like "I'm still not sure whether you or the shells would be the better choice for us, so I'm trying to keep as many of my bargaining chips to myself for now as I can."

Of course, he wouldn't say that outright...

He actually tries to be forthcoming to establish relations (pg. 106, where he asks why no one actually seems to be interested in the location of the relay point), but I could imagine a first contact with a species where relations are very tense like this, that both sides would try to withhold positions of their homeworlds or colonies and to establish a summit at a neutral location.

Quid pro quo. Or rather "show me yours and I'll show mine.". Of course, Alex and Earth by extension are in a very bad starting position to bargain with, since if the Loroi are inclined to and have enough resources for some scouts to spend, they will come across Earth, sooner or later. Especially now since they do have a general direction where to look and very much incentive to do so.

So yes. Alex has enough reasons to be forthcoming. The proverbial clock is already ticking, and if time runs out, Alex would lose all of the bargaining power he has on his own and Earth's behalf.

[icekatze]

hi hi

It's space opera, you can expect the actors involved to act and react in relatively human ways. Not as much risk as when negotiating with unnameable elder things with totally alien motivations and intent.

I mean, I still might try to secure some sort of declaration of intent to establish diplomatic relations before going into details about building permits for embassies, but I suppose Tempo's granting of diplomatic status to Alex might be construed as such.

[JQBogus]

Set that conversation in the Age of Exploration between an indigenous elder and a European ship's captain, and it isn't as odd. Especially if, somehow, it is the indigenous elder who has showed up on the European coast.

Setting it in current day earth, where there isn't any terra incognita left, and yeah, it doesn't fly.

[novius]

hi hi

It's space opera, you can expect the actors involved to act and react in relatively human ways. Not as much risk as when negotiating with unnameable elder things with totally alien motivations and intent.

I mean, I still might try to secure some sort of declaration of intent to establish diplomatic relations before going into details about building permits for embassies, but I suppose Tempo's granting of diplomatic status to Alex might be construed as such.

It's actually sort of both. The Loroi look and act similar enough to humans to attribute human thought processes and emotions to them, want it or not. That's dangerous, since they are not human and there are notable differences.

On the other hand, the Loroi are a major power in that region of space. Sure they are locked in a war of survival with an equally powerful opponent, but still they could run over Earth and its colonies if they ever think it necessary or useful. So, in that regard, they are sort of the "unnameable elder things" humans would do well to placate or bargain with to live another day.

[Arioch]

Set that conversation in the Age of Exploration between an indigenous elder and a European ship's captain, and it isn't as odd. Especially if, somehow, it is the indigenous elder who has showed up on the European coast.

There is nothing useful that the tribal elder can negotiate -- trade agreements, non-aggression pacts, territorial agreements, alliances, requests for aid of any kind, or even just a request to be left alone -- without revealing the location of his nation. If he wanted his nation to remain anonymous, he should have stayed home.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Never giving away the location of the homeworld really isn't the only alternative to giving it away as soon as possible. I've personally worked with companies that were dealing in proprietary material. Yes, handing over the material was necessary, but they made very certain that all the contracts and non disclosure agreements were signed and dated first.

[novius]

There is nothing useful that the tribal elder can negotiate -- trade agreements, non-aggression pacts, territorial agreements, alliances, requests for aid of any kind, or even just a request to be left alone -- without revealing the location of his nation. If he wanted his nation to remain anonymous, he should have stayed home.

And there's very little Alex could bring to the table to barter with - no technology, non-agression pacts wouldn't be worth a whit if the Loroi decide to break them, and they don't respect neutrality after all.

Earth would have rather stayed home, that's my impression. To stay out of their conflict and maybe continue exploration into another direction, far away from the battlefield. But since they face the actual possibility of the war to come a-knockin' at their front door, even that choice is right out. That became clear with the Orgus refugees showing up on Earth.

Though, when it comes to trade or requests for aid, it could be possible to negotiate for a neutral drop off point and the request for them to not travel any further than there... but Earth would have nothing to back up that request... so yes, trying for this would be senseless, nothing to gain from such an agreement, but lots to lose in diplomatic credits.

[novius]

hi hi

Never giving away the location of the homeworld really isn't the only alternative to giving it away as soon as possible. I've personally worked with companies that were dealing in proprietary material. Yes, handing over the material was necessary, but they made very certain that all the contracts and non disclosure agreements were signed and dated first.

NDA's regulate what the parties involved can tell outsiders and what not... but it's much more of a concern of what the Loroi themselves would do with the newfound knowledge.

Just think of it... The Loroi are confronted with a new species that should be vexing to them for several reasons.

• They are impervious to Loroi telepathy, which would make them a valueable asset to the Umiak.
• On a base biological level, a predator evolves traits to circumvent or counteract a prey's defenses. So one could (and does) think humans are designed to be a species - or artifice - to effectively combat Loroi.
• Add to that, humans look close enough to Loroi to play on their ingrained social mores - protect and safeguard their males. So if someone does think humans are designed to fight Loroi, they would see it as a masterful stroke in psychological warfare.
• Then, the appearance of humans could and does rattle Loroi core beliefs. Were it to become public, social upheavals are as good as a given.
• And if access to males is granted as merits and revoked as disciplinary measures, the sheer abundance (in Loroi eyes) of not-so-alien males could very much erode any discipline in ranks once they entertain the thoughts of looking for easier pickings.

Yes, humans could be dangerous to Loroi on so many levels. I'd find it highly probable that Loroi higher ups may decide to pull a rug over all that, quietly send out a task force - maintaining strict radio silence - to glass Earth and all human colonies and silently 'deal with' everyone who came into contact with them and especially 'that human'.

Alex might be aware of some of these implications, too. After all, he had very much time in his quarters (read: cell), to mull things over. So he has to step very carefully... nothing less than the survival of his species depends on it.

Heh, wild shot in the dark now... There will be a summit on Seren, and the higher ups decide to give a shit about the diplomatic credentials Tempo may have handed out to Alex - after all, field promotions are subjected to reviews once there is a chance - and to wipe every trace of humanity's existence from their records and from the galaxy. Of course, the 'shuttle group', especially Beryl, wouldn't take that lying down...

[icekatze]

hi hi

Given what Alex knows of the Loroi, I would think it is a real possibility that the Loroi government might decide that the existence of humans is inconvenient. He has no assurances that once he reaches his destination, that the Loroi chain of command won't say. "Nope, we're with Stillstorm on this one. Definitely enemy artifice, send him to the painnasium."

But that possibility is a double-edged blade. The counterpoint is that he could be the only surviving member of the contact team, and he only has this one chance to divulge the information to an open minded audience. Once they send him to the dissectitorium, that'd be it. We know Alex is a gambling type, and when presented with the possibilities that "the whole mission will fail" or "I'll be dead, but a Loroi survey mission could still follow the coordinates I gave them and realize I was telling the truth all along," the latter may seem higher risk, but higher rewards.

The Barsam do have a record of Alex, so even if they inconspicuously vacuum him under the rug, they probably won't be able to eliminate all evidence of his existence so easily.

[CF2]

I'd bet anything that offering a way for humanity's existence to fit into their Loroi-centric propaganda will be key to the treatment of Humanity. As it is, humans don't have enough clear and actionable value to outright demand their imperial-descent-narrative be changed. That may change by the end of the conflict, or it might not, but it certainly matters now.

[novius]

hi hi

Given what Alex knows of the Loroi, I would think it is a real possibility that the Loroi government might decide that the existence of humans is inconvenient. He has no assurances that once he reaches his destination, that the Loroi chain of command won't say. "Nope, we're with Stillstorm on this one. Definitely enemy artifice, send him to the painnasium."

But that possibility is a double-edged blade. The counterpoint is that he could be the only surviving member of the contact team, and he only has this one chance to divulge the information to an open minded audience. Once they send him to the dissectitorium, that'd be it. We know Alex is a gambling type, and when presented with the possibilities that "the whole mission will fail" or "I'll be dead, but a Loroi survey mission could still follow the coordinates I gave them and realize I was telling the truth all along," the latter may seem higher risk, but higher rewards.

The Barsam do have a record of Alex, so even if they inconspicuously vacuum him under the rug, they probably won't be able to eliminate all evidence of his existence so easily.

There's a third choice - that it wouldn't be a survey mission, but a task force in full genocide mode. The Loroi already did it - twice - and wouldn't hestitate to do so again if they see humans as a credible threat or "just" as a boon to the Umiak.

And I think it would be not that difficult to deal with the Barsam. After all, Tempo did cut off his comlink before too much had been said. Seed some disinformation ("Yes, it had been an artifice. Masterfully done, but an artifice. We had to play along to learn what makes it tick and what its designers intended it to do..."), maybe some "accidents" happening to people and data stores, and that'd be it.

Maybe Alex did establish some sort of mutual trust with the Loroi close to him. But he would do well to tread carefully. Especially when it comes to politics, where people do call to arms once they feel themselves or their power base threatened.

[Imbrooge]

As it is, humans don't have enough clear and actionable value to outright demand their imperial-descent-narrative be changed.

Generally it's not about being on equal terms as it is being in the best position possible as a client race, although techwise humanity is far behind Arioch has emphasized the importance of human territory and that even though we're behind in tech we do have some things that would make the logistics of expanding and outpacing the Umiak lucrative. On top of this humanity has the routes the Orgus refugees used, and the orgus are not even located at the front meaning that the Loroi will have the oppurtunity to end the stalemate and do a reach around at a front past the no man's land and strike them where they're vulnerable. No the Umiak do not have a full defense around it's borders because that is not logistically feasible in these intersolar wars.

[wasp609]

You forget that while loroi could go genocide mode on humanity. The barsam have enough intel that even the barest hint of a species immune to the loroi sanza getting wiped out by said loroi could kick off some serious crap for the loroi. Just look at our own civilization the barest hint of evidence on an accusation will send people crazy. This compacted by the fact a species had a resistance, has existed beforeand were wiped out, the Mannadi i believe. And well this would be the third loroi committed genocide, and i don't know about you but being allied with a species who doesn't think before wiping out another species would make me uncomfortable.

[JQBogus]

The problem with the "glass all the Human worlds and pretend they never existed" solution is that the Loroi could never be sure they got all the Humans, and nothing else would be so sure to drive (what's left) of Humanity into the arms of the Umiak. If Umiak cloning tech could be adapted to humans, it wouldn't be long before the Loroi would be facing the possibility of 'invisible' Umiak fleets crewed by very, very angry humans bent on revenge.

Heck, I would be surprised if Humanity isn't equipping and sending out as many colony ships as possible on secret deep colonization missions as insurance against 'glassing' too.

[Sweforce]

Heck, I would be surprised if Humanity isn't equipping and sending out as many colony ships as possible on secret deep colonization missions as insurance against 'glassing' too.

This may already be happening and so secretly that Alex never heard of it. That far away planet over there that was found to be unsuitable for colonisation twenty years ago? Secretly colonised! Some of those ships that mysteriously gone missing in suspected jump incidents? Far out there colonising! Some of those ships that actually lost in such incident may have rematerialised somewhere where they could reach somewhere to settle down. Maybe someone made a massive overshoot in a jump due to a "bunch" that they are now busy colonizing somewhere on the other side of the galaxy.

[novius]

The prospect of public backlash didn't deter the Loroi the first time, nor the second time. So why would one think that the third time would be any different?

Add to that, the Mannadi were wiped out just because of their natural resistence - that was enough to doom them as a species, and they were even better established on the galactic scene. So who would raise a stink about a species only few people would have ever heard about?

Just think of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_arm ... lent_leges - and if it's a war for the very survival, this would come even more true.

About "you can't catch them all"... Well, with the Mannadi they did, or to an extent that they won't pose any threat to them any longer. So it stands to reason that the Loroi have already some experience in "how to permanently wipe out a species and get away with it". But even if some of them got away....

Umiak cloning may take some time. Especially if they have to build up the numbers again. That's still preferable to over Umiak cargo ships swooping into Earth atmosphere and abducting humans by the droves, ready to be fitted with tech ensuring their subject's obedience and fielded into the next battle.

So, wiping out humans may be advantageous to the Loroi, even if it is to only buy themselves some time.

[novius]

Heck, I would be surprised if Humanity isn't equipping and sending out as many colony ships as possible on secret deep colonization missions as insurance against 'glassing' too.

Possible. That just asks for an AU fanfic where a run down colony, erected in haste, is all that is left of humanity, and years after the Loroi did the deed they were found by the ever expanding Loroi Union. Mix in some dissention in Loroi ranks - maybe some of them do have their misgivings about having done such a thing to their template species and not buying into the doctrine that these 'humans' were just Shell creations - and you might have the makings of a good story.