Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

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Luge
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Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Luge »

As we all wait patiently for the next page, I thought I'd start a new topic, possibly the first in a series, to discuss specific Outsider Characters. Alex, Beryl and Tempo have got a lot of screen time and exposure from the very beginning of Outsider, and I thought it might be good to take a look at some of the other characters who are almost as involved, or stating to increasingly appear in the plot.

Feel free to use this topic for Q&A, and maybe out illustrious author will pepper the topic with a few choice comment or reveals? (please?)

So... Talon.

Talon hasn't had much page time until recently when she's been showing Alex the star charts starting at the end of page 111. But She's actually been critical to the story for far longer.

She explains on page 113 that she and Spiral were the ones who actually rescued Alex from deep space, saving his life. There are no visible fighters or shuttles at the end of the prologue, but she mentioned that they "went out", suggesting they suited up and physically rescued him and helped to get him to the medical bay.

She and Spiral get anther encounter with Alex on page 41 as Alex is led to his meeting on the bridge. She glances back at him after he says hello (not knowing of course that she has seen him already). She glances back with... concern? relief? or just politeness?

She makes a sneaky appearance on the left side of page 79 in her fighter craft. Now we know where she and Spiral were going with their helmets under their arms earlier. You can tell it's her by the two tones of blue hair just visible inside the helmet.

This brings us up to date. Spiral and Talon are already on the shuttle when Alex, Tempo and Beryl board it.

This is probably my favourite frame of the cockpit sequence so far. Alex extends a hand in thanks for saving his life, only to be left hanging. He's a billion miles from home, and alone with an alien race he doesn't understand, still in shock from the total loss of his friends and shipmates.

He looks pretty glum and maybe Talon sees and understands that. Talon and Spiral are the last two survivors of their squadron as well. She takes his hand and places it carefully into her own to shake it. This might be the first friend Alex has made in a while. It's one of the most touching moments of the series so far.

Do we know anything else about Talon? We know her rank and caste (Tenoin Arrir, equivalent to a Squadron Leader / Senior Navigator). Post any more information you have of questions you'd like to ask!

L.

Edit: Changed the Title to Talon and Spiral, so learn more about both.
Last edited by Luge on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

boldilocks
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by boldilocks »

When she meets them while they're on the way to the bridge, I assumed she was talking/sansaing to beryl.
(You taking him up to the boss? She's really pissed, just fyi.)

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icekatze
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

While I'm not generally in the habit of shipping characters that are in the shows, books, comics, etc. that I see, I can say that from a psychological point of view, Talon and Alex seem to me to be the closest we've seen to "two peas in a pod." Talon seems to not only take Alex at face value, but she treats him almost like a peer. This probably makes Talon and Alex good candidates for being "besties."

(And from a meta-narrative point of view, that puts Talon and Spiral in a dangerously above average probability of being killed off at some point. I sure hope not though, cause I really like them, which from said point of view, makes them even bigger targets for an Umiak beam weapon.)

Talon is supposedly the oldest surviving fighter pilot from the Tempest. Talon is from Beleri, the northern continent of Taben, which is also likely reflected in the color of her eyes.

Also, some of the old forum information about Talon and Spiral may be out of date. After all, it was originally said that they were pulled off interceptor duty, only to have them show up in chapter 1, flying interceptors. :P

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Arioch
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by Arioch »

Here are some items previously mentioned on the forums:

All the members of Talon & Spiral's Taben Tenoin training band got the same tattoo, and most of the members of the original squadron of 20 were drawn from the same band of about 50.

Spiral is from Maia, but she was shipped off to Taben to get her Tenoin training. Talon (who was in the same class) is a Taben native, from a port town called Sezabi on the northern continent of Beleri.

Talon and Spiral were part of the same diral childhood training band (called the "High Tide Lowlives" (riibon timoir misit beda)) on Taben, and all the members got matching tattoos when they graduated. A new fighter squadron was formed (mostly from members of this band, including Talon and Spiral and the diral leader) and was deployed to Strike Group 51. Talon and Spiral are the last two surviving members of the original squadron, but they aren't the only pilots on Tempest; the rest are replacements or members of other squadrons.

Spiral wears a fragment of a nilnol blade as a pendant (a “nilnol” is a Belerid utility knife, traditionally made of leviathan bone), which was the diral seii (or leadership totem) of the "High Tide Lowlives." She inherited it from the previous owner, who was killed. It was originally carried by the diral leader.

Luge
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by Luge »

Thanks Arioch!

A quick question on the caste/ranks page. If Spiral and Talon are brought back to the homeworlds to train new pilots, are the more senior Tenoin ranks non-flying ones? Would they retire from piloting to take places on the bridge?

L.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by Gorbash »

I'd interpreted Alex's facial response to being left hanging as less glum, more "smooth". Like he is fully aware that Loroi have a negative reaction to physical contact (as Beryl had previously told him), but went for it anyway, and feigned nonchalance in order to coax Talon into trying it.

It fits well with his reaction to Beryl asking about it later -- he doesn't fully trust the Loroi, so he's pushing his boundaries, and seeing what his "handlers" will let him do, while making friends with other Loroi while he's at it.

That still leaves Talon as the first actual friend he's made, however. And one of the two people who saved his life.

Luge
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Luge »

Arioch, is it traditional for a diral seii to pass down form the diral leader to her deputy/designated successor, then to the next most senior, and so on?

Can you tell us why Talon has picked up a promotion and Spiral has not?

Thanks!

L.

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icekatze
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

When did Beryl tell Alex about the Loroi negative reaction to touching? I was pretty sure no one has said anything directly about it. Just Fireblade pushing Alex away, non-verbally when he nearly fell into her.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by novius »

Well, Alex surely did notice that Loroi as a whole mind the "private space" (less than an arm's lengths) even much more than humans would do - and that their ships are rather spacious, compared to any human-designed vessel.

And that after he woke up to them touching him after their attempt at mind-raping, so yes, I'd wager that he has a good idea that touch amplifies their telepathy, and given the Loroi's general manner of cautious courtesy, it would be easy to deduce that a touch would be a more private matter to Loroi.

On top of that is the infamous scene inside the elevator. Many human's reaction would be to instinctively reach out and try to steady the person losing his balance, and Fireblade on the other hand gave him an evil glare and a telekinetic shove, one not too gentle.

But, him reaching out to Talon? I'd rather see it the other way round. Why? Have a look at the other Loroi he came in close contact so far:
  • Fireblade seems to give him the evil eye whenever he comes into sight. A totally 'the less I see of you, the better for you it is'.
  • Tempo.... well, she is unsettling. Hauntingly beautiful, and with a keen mind and a way with words, but her whole demeanor hints to 'spook' or even 'femme fatale'.
  • Beryl. Sweet, bubbly and cheerful as she is, she has already shown that he must be sort of on guard around her, too. She picks up on everything, as we've seen with the language lesson and simply doesn't let go of an unsolved puzzle to satisfy her curious mind.
So yes, Talon with her matter-of-fact attitude and a comparable background (both are pilots and grunts at heart) is one he could more easily connect to rather than the three I mentioned before this. She said so herself, in a way, in http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider116.html ... something that could be misinterpreted when taken out of context. :)

So I do think that Alex was truthful when he said 'Force of habit'. And it shows that he did drop his guard around her enough to let a completely human action of greeting slip past his mindfulness. In a way, Talon and Spiral do seem to be more approachable to him because of sharing a similar background. Talon readily adapts to his peculiar manner (to her) of greeting, despite Loroi sensitivity of touch... and while Spiral declines, she just did so because of a technicality. She's busy piloting the shuttle.

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Arioch
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by Arioch »

Luge wrote:If Spiral and Talon are brought back to the homeworlds to train new pilots, are the more senior Tenoin ranks non-flying ones? Would they retire from piloting to take places on the bridge?
Talon is the current flight leader of Squadron 440, which is the interceptor squadron associated with Strike Group 51 (some berth aboard Tempest, and some aboard other ships in the group). Talon and Spiral were put temporarily on shuttle pilot duty to lessen the likelihood of them both getting killed before the next batch of replacement pilots arrive; the training Stillstorm had in mind was of the new replacement pilots. They were not planned to be sent away to become teachers; that would normally be jobs for more senior pilots. Talon is the flight leader merely because she's the most senior pilot of the squadron to have survived; she's still fairly junior.

There are a variety of more senior Tenoin ranks, ranging from flying ranks like wing leader to ship piloting jobs (helmsman) to various staff jobs. It's not unusual for a fighter pilot to eventually become the pilot of a larger vessel.
Luge wrote:Arioch, is it traditional for a diral seii to pass down form the diral leader to her deputy/designated successor, then to the next most senior, and so on?
It's informal, but it's usually passed to the closest friend who was part of the diral and is nearby.
Luge wrote:Can you tell us why Talon has picked up a promotion and Spiral has not?
She has performed better.

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icekatze
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Huh, I never really thought about it before. Since Talon is the senior pilot, and Spiral is the copilot, does it mean that Loroi usually put the pilot in the right-hand seat, and the co-pilot in the left-hand seat? Or do they not have a standard seating like human pilots do?

I wonder what happens to the diral seii when there's no one else from the diral to pass it on to. :(

Luge
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon

Post by Luge »

Arioch wrote:Talon is the flight leader merely because she's the most senior pilot of the squadron to have survived; she's still fairly junior.

There are a variety of more senior Tenoin ranks, ranging from flying ranks like wing leader to ship piloting jobs (helmsman) to various staff jobs. It's not unusual for a fighter pilot to eventually become the pilot of a larger vessel.
Yes, this confused me because on the caste and ranks page Talon is a "Squadron Leader". In the UK and commonwealth, a squadron leader is an OF3 rank, and in the United States the leader of a squadron is typically a lieutenant-colonel (OF4) or higher (OF5).

This led me to think she was more senior than she really is.

What are fighter pilot attrition rates like in the war currently? Strike Group 51 engaged a much larger enemy force in the recent battle and lost two ships of the line. How long did it take for Spiral and Talon's squadron to become so depleted?

L.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:Since Talon is the senior pilot, and Spiral is the copilot, does it mean that Loroi usually put the pilot in the right-hand seat, and the co-pilot in the left-hand seat? Or do they not have a standard seating like human pilots do?
The pilot in command normally sits in the right hand seat.
icekatze wrote:I wonder what happens to the diral seii when there's no one else from the diral to pass it on to.
It might be taken as a keepsake by a comrade who was not in the diral, or it might be discarded (as there would be no one left for whom it held meaning).
Luge wrote:Yes, this confused me because on the caste and ranks page Talon is a "Squadron Leader". In the UK and commonwealth, a squadron leader is an OF3 rank, and in the United States the leader of a squadron is typically a lieutenant-colonel (OF4) or higher (OF5).
The officer in charge of a squadron would normally be a Baistil, but Arrir Talon is the most senior surviving officer. A more accurate description of the Arrir is probably "flight leader"; I have updated the descriptions.
Luge wrote:What are fighter pilot attrition rates like in the war currently? Strike Group 51 engaged a much larger enemy force in the recent battle and lost two ships of the line. How long did it take for Spiral and Talon's squadron to become so depleted?
Squadron 440 was deployed to Strike Group 51 almost a year prior to the current point in the story, the last time SG51 was off the line. They have been continually resupplied and reinforced, but there are only two left of the original twenty. Loss rates tend to be higher for smaller vessels, and the light interceptor is as small as it gets. The small craft pilots in a raider group are analogous to the American bomber pilots in the opening years of WWII; it's essentially the most hazardous duty in the theater.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by GeoModder »

Could Tenoin currently stationed on the flight deck of say the Tempest or another large vessel with fighters onboard be used to fill in gaps in the fighter squadron?
Or are flight deck Tenoin usually not trained for fighter duty? Or would it be too much of a 'demotion' to return to piloting small craft?
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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Arioch »

GeoModder wrote:Could Tenoin currently stationed on the flight deck of say the Tempest or another large vessel with fighters onboard be used to fill in gaps in the fighter squadron?
Or are flight deck Tenoin usually not trained for fighter duty? Or would it be too much of a 'demotion' to return to piloting small craft?
It would depend on the situation, but more often they would dragoon a shuttle pilot or something closer. But since you're losing craft as well as pilots, there's not usually a huge mismatch in terms of empty seats.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Arent »

As much as I love the female cast, I would like to see a Loroi male for a change.

Btw. does anyone here know "the virility factor" (German: Die geschützen Männer)? The situation among the Loroi reminds me a little of that book.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Sweforce »

Arioch wrote:
GeoModder wrote:Could Tenoin currently stationed on the flight deck of say the Tempest or another large vessel with fighters onboard be used to fill in gaps in the fighter squadron?
Or are flight deck Tenoin usually not trained for fighter duty? Or would it be too much of a 'demotion' to return to piloting small craft?
It would depend on the situation, but more often they would dragoon a shuttle pilot or something closer. But since you're losing craft as well as pilots, there's not usually a huge mismatch in terms of empty seats.
That would require something like, let's say an explosion in the crew quarters on a carrier when the fighters are parked in the hangar. Not very likely but possible. An for a story engineered situation could have the hangar doors jammed due to a malfunction preventing launch (similar to an aircraft carrier with a bomb crater on the flight deck). More realistically, the situation could be the other way with a sudden surplus of pilots due to an explosion on hangar deck. Imagine a story where all fighters are taken out of commission and the Gallen are working frantically to cannibalize destroyed crafts to get at least some fighters ready, a situation that reminds me of something I read of an German airbase during WW2 that managed to build two fighters entirely from spare parts!

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by entity2636 »

Sweforce wrote:That would require something like, let's say an explosion in the crew quarters on a carrier when the fighters are parked in the hangar. Not very likely but possible. An for a story engineered situation could have the hangar doors jammed due to a malfunction preventing launch (similar to an aircraft carrier with a bomb crater on the flight deck). More realistically, the situation could be the other way with a sudden surplus of pilots due to an explosion on hangar deck. Imagine a story where all fighters are taken out of commission and the Gallen are working frantically to cannibalize destroyed crafts to get at least some fighters ready, a situation that reminds me of something I read of an German airbase during WW2 that managed to build two fighters entirely from spare parts!
I remember both scenarios from different sci-fi franchises also. Excess planes and lack of pilots - Wing Commander movie. There they salvaged all shot up or crashed starfighters that could be salvaged or at least used for parts, repaired them and pressed them back into service with replacement pilots flown in from back home (two main heroes in the movie). Excess pilots and lack of planes - new Battlestar Galactica. Although initially having plenty of modern starfighters available and recruiting everyone with piloting experience into the fighter corps, cylon EW made the modern fighters unusable so they had to press old museum Vipers back into service and, if I remember right, they even started building their own later in the series.

In the present Outsider universe and the Umiak war there is not much use for starfighters and SG51 only uses them as additional anti-torpedo defense. The Umiak don't appear to be using starfighters of their own, and usually have so many corvettes and destroyers in their battle groups that any enemy starfighters, strike fighters or bombers going for the larger ships would not even get close to their targets. Besides, it's always better to snipe stuff from as far as possible and not risk your own hide.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by orion1836 »

Arioch wrote:
icekatze wrote:Since Talon is the senior pilot, and Spiral is the copilot, does it mean that Loroi usually put the pilot in the right-hand seat, and the co-pilot in the left-hand seat? Or do they not have a standard seating like human pilots do?
The pilot in command normally sits in the right hand seat.
As a career pilot, even I didn't know why our convention is to have the captain (or pilot in command) on the left hand side, though a quick search of quora revealed a sound answer. That said, there is another reason I could think of that would make sense given what we know of Loroi physiology.

In multi-place aircraft, the throttles are normally in the center between the two pilots. This causes the captain to fly with his left hand and actuate the throttles with his right and vice-versa for the co-pilot. Propeller torque reasons (from quora) aside, it makes sense for a predominantly right-handed species to have new pilots start out flying with their right hands. You eventually learn to fly with both (and in fact, though I'm right-handed, I fly much better with my left), but it helps to start out with your dominant hand. Why would it be reversed for Loroi? From the Insider, they're predominantly left-handed. They might not have manual control yokes and throttles anymore, but the tradition would have carried on.

Another detail I like about Talon and Spiral is their apparent lack of proficiency with Trade, which completely makes sense when you think about it. They're pilots, and most likely only converse in the extreme shorthand that pilots reserve for the radio. Mizol and Listel have reason and opportunity to learn how to speak fluently and effortlessly, but Tenoin don't. Come to think of it, the only other Loroi we hear speaking are senior officers (from the battle sequences) with the exception of Reed. The former would have had the time to polish trade over the years of communicating through engagements beyond telepathic range. Reed... who knows? Maybe we just got a complete sentence out of her and otherwise she speaks like Talon and Spiral.

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Re: Character Discussion - Talon and Spiral

Post by Luge »

orion1836 wrote:In multi-place aircraft, the throttles are normally in the center between the two pilots. This causes the captain to fly with his left hand and actuate the throttles with his right and vice-versa for the co-pilot. Propeller torque reasons (from quora) aside, it makes sense for a predominantly right-handed species to have new pilots start out flying with their right hands. You eventually learn to fly with both (and in fact, though I'm right-handed, I fly much better with my left), but it helps to start out with your dominant hand. Why would it be reversed for Loroi? From the Insider, they're predominantly left-handed. They might not have manual control yokes and throttles anymore, but the tradition would have carried on.
On a related note, boats came along way before planes. Most boats that people will be familiar with have the rudder directly at the back, but that's a relatively recent invention. Before that, in Viking ships and early Mediterranean craft, steering would just be an oversized paddle handing over one of the rear quarters of the boat. Which side? The right side, because most people were right handed and that was traditionally the stronger arm. That means the helmsman would stand on the left (port) side of the ship, facing forwards. The situation could well be reversed for the Loroi.

L.

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