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Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party 
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
novius wrote:
Were that a scene in an RTS game, one would say that the player on the Loroi side must have made some grievous mistakes even much earlier on to have it come to this.

The Umiak sent in supply ships - so they surely have a stable supply line connecting Leido Crossroads and their controlled space. And even the shells would just be smart enough to mass their forces for a coordinated strike only if they're confident enough to punch through the Loroi defenses and start rampaging in inner Loroi space.

Definitely looks much like the endgame.

I think we're heading to the close of Chapter two and the final days of the Loroi Union as a whole, and Chapter three might start out with scattered Loroi holdouts starting a guerilla warfare.

I do not theink the Umiak have a stable to supply line. Their fighting style is kamikaze-like.
Why not a support group either? Just send some tankers and frwighters with armament resupply, and your assault group can go much further and lay waste to core worlds it would otherwise not reach. Thus stopping Loroi suplies at other places along the front. Of course they come a few hours after the actual assault group, and not with the front line.

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Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:24 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
If we're looking at a large scale invasion, the Loroi reserves might be able to cut off Umiak support. The Loroi may have lost their farsensing, but they can still make use of pickets and use their defenders advantage. Commanders like Stillstorm might turn out ot save the Union now. Who better to lead crippling raids into the steppes with capital ships now than people like her?

I mean, it's unlikely that the systems behind the current push are filled with Umiak. Otherwise they would be in the attack.


Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:34 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Werra wrote:
Arioch, do you have any more pictures of Moonglow looking smug? Asking for a friend.

You mean like this? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Werra wrote:
If we're looking at a large scale invasion, the Loroi reserves might be able to cut off Umiak support. The Loroi may have lost their farsensing, but they can still make use of pickets and use their defenders advantage. Commanders like Stillstorm might turn out ot save the Union now. Who better to lead crippling raids into the steppes with capital ships now than people like her?

I mean, it's unlikely that the systems behind the current push are filled with Umiak. Otherwise they would be in the attack.


The point of the tankers and transports is that they're carrying their supplies with them so they don't have supply lines to be cut off. The goal is to get behind the enemy lines and wreak havoc - either the Loroi have to respond by withdrawing their front-line forces to expel the incursion (at which point the Umiak basically get extra systems conceded to them) or they let the Umiak blow up the industrial machine that supplies the Loroi war effort and in a few months/years the Loroi lack the resources to continue the war. In short, it is a *huge problem* if this group breaks into the interior of Loroi space.

The idea that Strike Group 51 would advance into the Uninhabitable Regions and hope that the Umiak have left their systems on the other side undefended is... not a great plan. They have no additional supplies, no support forces, are already fighting with a reduced number of ships and the current battle is unlikely to improve their numbers at all. An unplanned incursion into enemy space because you hope they didn't leave any defenses after an incursion you couldn't stop isn't exactly a great strategy.


Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:22 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Arioch wrote:
You mean like this?

Nice size. Many thanks.

admiralkit wrote:
The point of the tankers and transports is that they're carrying their supplies with them so they don't have supply lines to be cut off. The goal is to get behind the enemy lines and wreak havoc - either the Loroi have to respond by withdrawing their front-line forces to expel the incursion (at which point the Umiak basically get extra systems conceded to them) or they let the Umiak blow up the industrial machine that supplies the Loroi war effort and in a few months/years the Loroi lack the resources to continue the war. In short, it is a *huge problem* if this group breaks into the interior of Loroi space.

We'll have to wait and see whether the supplies being carried give these Umiak the range to strike deep into Loroi territory or if they just extend their performance by one or two systems. They will have to fight near constantly, even under optimal circumstances. Edit: Then again, you're likely correct. I reread a few pages of the comic.

admiralkit wrote:
The idea that Strike Group 51 would advance into the Uninhabitable Regions and hope that the Umiak have left their systems on the other side undefended is... not a great plan. They have no additional supplies, no support forces, are already fighting with a reduced number of ships and the current battle is unlikely to improve their numbers at all. An unplanned incursion into enemy space because you hope they didn't leave any defenses after an incursion you couldn't stop isn't exactly a great strategy.

To be fair, I was thinking of the counter attack with elements of the reserve fleets as well. So a bunch of capital ships and heavy models taking part in these attacks.


Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
And, things continue to get worse for our intrepid heroes. But, I have to give kudos to Beryl. In spite of the incoming enemy, the increasingly dire combat situation, and the fact that she and Alex really should make their way to a couple of crash seats, she just refuses to relinquish her spot on Alex's lap. She hasn't so much as budged her arm from his shoulders.

Science priorities, clearly! :P


Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:20 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Quote:
The enemy calls them Khalkha Divisions




Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:43 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Zarya wrote:
I’d still expect that she relayed a full report of this unusual conversation back to Loroi HQ.


My bet would be on Tempo actually. I think Stillstorm may be the type to actually BELIEVE that it's purely lies and leave it at that.

novius wrote:
Of that I am not sure of. Remember, communications in Outsiderverse is NOT instantaneous, but limited to the travel speed of their ships. If we expect SG51 to not to leisurely pace around but make good speed to Leido crossroads, the other party involved who might have brought forth news about Kikitik-27's statements could be Captain Mozin.


I have no doubt that Tempo and/or Stillstorm uploaded a significant amount of documentation about what's going on before Mozin made his jump. The fact that they didn't dictate it all live on screen doesn't mean much.

Dahak wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
The Loroi commanders seem quite cheerful at the prospect of their impending death.


"Do not think of it as being outnumbered. Think of it as having a wide selection of targets."


"They've got us surrounded. The poor bastards."

Arioch wrote:
Dahak wrote:
"Do not think of it as being outnumbered. Think of it as having a wide selection of targets."

"That simplifies our problem." - Col. Lewis “Chesty” Puller, in response to being informed that his 1st Marine Regiment was surrounded and outnumbered by Chinese forces at Chosin Reservoir, Korea 1950


Fun fact: The Chinese sent 10 divisions with orders to DESTROY the 1st marines. Not push them back, not claim the land they were on, destroy them. The intent was to send a message to the Americans.

10 divisions vs 1 Marine division and 1 Army Regimental Combat Team.

America wins.

Werra wrote:
Well, they definitely think they can win this war or gain a significant advantage with this push. I'm not sold on them being the clear winners already. We know too little about them. Might also be that their economy can't stand the strain of their heavy losses for much longer, so they scrambled one last major offensive together. Like the fan favourites from WW1 after Russia capitulated.


For the last few days I've had one word at the top of my mind.

"Kaiserschlacht"


Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:11 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Werra wrote:
admiralkit wrote:
The idea that Strike Group 51 would advance into the Uninhabitable Regions and hope that the Umiak have left their systems on the other side undefended is... not a great plan. They have no additional supplies, no support forces, are already fighting with a reduced number of ships and the current battle is unlikely to improve their numbers at all. An unplanned incursion into enemy space because you hope they didn't leave any defenses after an incursion you couldn't stop isn't exactly a great strategy.

To be fair, I was thinking of the counter attack with elements of the reserve fleets as well. So a bunch of capital ships and heavy models taking part in these attacks.


A Loroi counterattack into enemy territory at this point would be counter productive at best, self defeating at worst because the Loroi Navy simply doesn't have enough tonnage in the right places or not at all because it's against their doctrine.

Already now the Loroi have at least three units (20th and 51st Strike Groups and the whole Tinza sector fleet) engaged by superior enemy forces and they lost two whole strike groups in Naam before the 51st arrived to investigate. The 51st is itself down to just 4 capital ships and not set up for deep strike operations.

Furthermore, at this point I tend to believe the reserve fleet stationed at Enedd has already been dispatched to assist the Tinza fleet which is exactly what the Umiak are waiting for. With where the Loroi forces currently are, the Umiak can just fly right past Azimol Citadel and Enedd and attack the Union's soft underbelly.

I think the only viable move for the Loroi is to disengage where possible, withdraw through neighboring systems and regroup for a meaningful opposition to the 1500+ Umiak ships to avoid getting surrounded and destroyed. This sector is at least temporarily to be considered lost and the top priority should be preventing the Umiak from reaching and spreading all over the interior systems.

A counterattack by any of the relatively small Loroi units in this situation would be suicide, squandering of assets without a meaningful result and just leave the Umiak invasion forces with less enemy tonnage in their way.


Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:45 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Remember the Clearbrook?

Her captain said something along the lines of "extinct species don't need embassies", and the ship came from Azimol, judging the trajectory on the tactical display.

Makes one believe that she knew more about the situation than she let on. As in, she knew the Umiak would start a large scale invasion, but their forces arriving clued her in that it would be just right now.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:01 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
fredgiblet wrote:
"Kaiserschlacht"


Well, it may seem so for the Loroi, but I am not sure the analogy holds for the Umiak. They're not approaching economic collapse and starvation due to a suffocating blockade, at least as far as we're aware. I am sure the war has put some strain on their resources, but so far all information on the Hierarchy we have points to the fact that they're an industrial powerhouse, significantly outproducing the Loroi in terms of ships, munitions and materiel. This is possible partly because the Umiak are perfectly willing to ruthlessly exploit their vassals to a degree the Loroi can't afford, but mainly because the Umiak citizens are so hive-minded and pliable. They will sacrifice their comforts, well-being or even lives for the final victory. They will wreck their worlds with runaway industry if that helps them to eliminate what they see as a threat to their existence.

This is not a last hurrah of a desperate country – this is a massive offensive reminiscent of the Soviet steamroller that broke the back of the German army in 1944.

The Loroi are in deep shit, if you pardon my French. For their sake, I hope their reserves are sufficient to contain and halt the Umiak incursion. However, I get the same vibe as when I was watching the BSG miniseries: the Loroi got complacent and over-reliant on superior intelligence provided by the Farseers. This is at least understandable because it was such a huge strategic advantage: the reason they were able to neutralise superior Umiak numbers was their ability to concentrate reserves at the critical point along the front. Now this crucial advantage is gone and they've been caught completely by surprise.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:11 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
With tankers, I can understand as ships are bound to run out of fuel sooner or later (and I am guessing with the Umiak likeing sending out older models until they go boom they probably don't have great gas mileage).

The transport ships leave me wondering if there is going to be any land force invasions or taking over a space station (its there, commandeer it for your own base of operations, and take any secrets within). If so, will we see Alex get into a fire fight?


Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:46 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
The Umiak have shown a great willingness to sacrifice ships en masse - a testament not only to thier production capabilities but also thier morale at thier willingness to engage in mass attrition warfare wtihout blinking.

The 'deep strike' doesn't have to be tactically successful - all it really has to do is tie down Loroi reserves/fast responders while the outlying systems are blockaded, seiged, and broken. The Umiak have shown they can take these losses without flinching. If the raid brekas to the Loroi home regions, all the better, but not necessary. The Loroi either have to spend significant forces chasing after them as they can't afford to have thier core systems hammered, which means they likely have to sacrifice outlying systems. THis also further disrupts command and control as the Umiak would conceivably be hitting logistics, infrastructure, relay stations, etc. All it has to accomplish to be worth it is to slow down the Loroi's response.

Also strategically this operation has a massive amount of preparation to it. The Umiak have put a great deal of effort into the timing of this - evaluation of where the Loroi fleets are, how quickly they respond to threats.. They seem to at least have put a great deal fo forethought to how and where the Loroi fleets would respond to their attacks to pin fast response fleets, had a significant reserve ready for a deep strike once the Loroi fleets were deployed, and now even further into the engagement they're throwing in another fleet purely for a deep penetration mission once all the Loroi fleets are deploying and scrambled. They've spent a massive amount of preparation on intelligence, analysis and logistics of their enemy. They at least have had a very good picture of how the Loroi would respond to their own moves and had forces in place ahead of time for this. This isn't taking a sledgehammer - this is a very carefully planned extensive operation that so far seems to be showcasing the Umiak's finding a way to exploit a short term tactical or technological advantage (some unexplaiend way to neutralize Loroi farseeing) into a massive offensive (before the Loroi can realize that the Umiak have neutralized thier ability and found a way to counteract it to return to the tactical/technological status quo).

The Umiak not only developed some new tactic/technology, but so far have showcased they can maximize the potential of it's use. And the followup indicates that they had a lot of confidence in this to have put in both the effort and resources as well as what must have been years of analysis of raids and counter-raids to get the timing done.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:26 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Mr Bojangles wrote:
And, things continue to get worse for our intrepid heroes. But, I have to give kudos to Beryl. In spite of the incoming enemy, the increasingly dire combat situation, and the fact that she and Alex really should make their way to a couple of crash seats, she just refuses to relinquish her spot on Alex's lap. She hasn't so much as budged her arm from his shoulders.

Science priorities, clearly! :P



sitting on lap is NO protection in a car crash. see video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIbDDHnxUiA


Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:27 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Easy there, wedge. We don't really know much about what the Umiak can and can't absorb in terms of losses. We know that at certain points, such as during the early phases of Semoset, that they seemed bewildered. And that the losses incurred by the systems adjacent to the Loroi DMZ were great enough, that they created their own no-man's land to contain said attacks. It's pretty certain that the Umiak have far greater industrial capacity than the Loroi, but looking at the sorry state of their client species, I would not think they simply absorbed the losses like nothing happened.
And to the historical example: the Red Army in 1945 was the largest force in Europe by far...but was at the limit of what it could achieve. Had there been further fighting or heavy organised resistance, the number of troops would start to fall once again, simply because they were running out of manpower (though not nearly fast enough to make the Germans able to halt them). Also the Germans were a credible threat to the Soviets, whereas all clues indicate the Loroi would be hard pressed to invade/occupy Umiak space.
In fact, strangely enough for a telepathic species, the Loroi seem to never have the initiative strategically. Tactically brilliant, yes, but strategically they've been reacting to their opponents, rather than the other way around, right from the start of the conflict. That's pretty bad news....

From vague recollection, the Khalkha divisions are expeditionary fleets in Umiak doctrine. Long ranged force projection, categorised by endurance, as opposed to regular system defense fleets. Whereas the Loroi, when taking them into consideration, refer to their role as massive upfront damage potential ("gatecrashers"). Emphasys on shock value when categorising them. Interesting dichotomy.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:30 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
The Umiak have pressed the Loroi hard for nearly the whole war. It's difficult to take the initiative while your enemy pushes you so. That the Umiak are willing to take horrendous losses in attrition assaults across a no mans land into farseer supported defenses means they're willing to spend this many lives and ships keeping the Loroi busy. They could take advantage of their industry and let the Loroi come charging their defensive lines. In theory the longer the war takes, the bigger the material advantage for the Umiak should be. So why are they so desperate to end it early?
Perhabs the Umiak are more akin to a locust swarm and running out of fresh green on their core worlds.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:52 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Didn't I read somewhere here on the forums or in the Insider pages that Humanities industrial capacity was a significant proportion of the Loroi's? Yes, most of it is involved in producing trinkety fluff but Humans have shown a great aptitude for shifting production capacity from civilian to military uses quickly in the past. And we have effectively limitless resources since we claim such a huge amount of space and it's uncontested.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:58 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
I think that you meant insignificant industrial capacity, the difference in size and tech level between Humanity and the Umiak/Loroi is like comparing a small WW1 era nation to modern China and the USA. The resources are also debatable, while the empty quarter/great wastelands is a vast territory both the Loroi and the Umiak have avoided expanding there because of the distinct lack of prime territory in the form of mineral rich star systems and habitable worlds in the surveys that had been sent there. Granted there is one proven oasis in the form of Sol and the few surrounding systems so there should be more but that's an issue to be solved after extensive surveying and cataloguing.

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Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:05 am
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Witty_Username wrote:
Didn't I read somewhere here on the forums or in the Insider pages that Humanities industrial capacity was a significant proportion of the Loroi's? Yes, most of it is involved in producing trinkety fluff but Humans have shown a great aptitude for shifting production capacity from civilian to military uses quickly in the past. And we have effectively limitless resources since we claim such a huge amount of space and it's uncontested.



dragoongfa wrote:
I think that you meant insignificant industrial capacity, the difference in size and tech level between Humanity and the Umiak/Loroi is like comparing a small WW1 era nation to modern China and the USA.

Honestly, even if we just produce shoes and uniforms and ship them over, that still frees up more valuable production capacity in Loroi systems.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:04 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
saint of m wrote:
With tankers, I can understand as ships are bound to run out of fuel sooner or later (and I am guessing with the Umiak likeing sending out older models until they go boom they probably don't have great gas mileage).

The transport ships leave me wondering if there is going to be any land force invasions or taking over a space station (its there, commandeer it for your own base of operations, and take any secrets within). If so, will we see Alex get into a fire fight?

Transports does not mean troop transports, at least not always. They can carry parts and equipment for quick fixing ships, or to build stations to hold territory on the off chance, that the assault is successful, and they can establish a bridgehead, with some repair and refuel capability.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:49 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
They're cargo transports, not troop transports, carrying non-fuel supplies (ordnance, parts, food, etc.).

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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Mr Bojangles wrote:
And, things continue to get worse for our intrepid heroes. But, I have to give kudos to Beryl. In spite of the incoming enemy, the increasingly dire combat situation, and the fact that she and Alex really should make their way to a couple of crash seats, she just refuses to relinquish her spot on Alex's lap. She hasn't so much as budged her arm from his shoulders.

Science priorities, clearly! :P


Lap tracker: 10 pages and counting (or 7% of the entire comic).


Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:46 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
orion1836 wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
And, things continue to get worse for our intrepid heroes. But, I have to give kudos to Beryl. In spite of the incoming enemy, the increasingly dire combat situation, and the fact that she and Alex really should make their way to a couple of crash seats, she just refuses to relinquish her spot on Alex's lap. She hasn't so much as budged her arm from his shoulders.

Science priorities, clearly! :P


Lap tracker: 10 pages and counting (or 7% of the entire comic).
Let's see if this quota holds up until Epilogue... ;)

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charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123


Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:55 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
I imagine the logistics of the umiak must be a nightmare considering their favoured tactic is "launch all missiles".


Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:54 pm
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Post Re: Page 136: When the douchebags crash the party
Werra wrote:
Honestly, even if we just produce shoes and uniforms and ship them over, that still frees up more valuable production capacity in Loroi systems.


Nope, the tech difference probably means that we'd be producing them in craftmen's shops, whereas the Loroi would be making them on assembly lines. So the impact would be small.
Also, consider that the Loroi already have 3 species that do no fighting (Barsam, Pipolsid, Delrias) and one that does little fighting (Neridi). Those guys probably make most of the war material the Loroi use (we know the Delrias make those particle beams, and the Pipolsid make the drives). They have no shortage of workers, what they lack is experienced soldiers and a way out of the stalemate.


Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:26 pm
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