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The ECS hull numbers are assigned to TCA units; they do not include civilian or local patrol or police ships (except those specifically provided by the TCA).

GeoModder wrote:I do wonder how much of the Tinza Sector Fleet is engaged at Sala 128 though. It depends on whether the whole Sector Fleet participates in the incursion at that star, or if for this enemy force the Farseers were unable to provide reliable data too like in Naam, meaning the Loroi Sector Commander might not have committed her whole battle fleet yet.

The Tinza Sector Fleet based at Azimol has a strength of about 5 divisions, the majority of which are at Sala 128. The Tinza reserves at Nezel have a strength of about 4 divisions, but due to the Code Four alert, some of these will be moving toward Sala 128 (if they are not already). The joint Seren-Tinza front shares a combined raider force of about 3 divisions (9 groups), but due to action prior, only two groups (SG51 and SG20) are currently in position to participate.

The sizes of divisions vary widely by type and according to current strength but in general:
A typical Umiak division consists of 15 squadrons of 5 (75, 15-20 of which are "heavies"), plus 25-50 gunboats.
A typical Loroi division consists of 3 groups of 4 squadrons of 8 (96, of which 16-24 are "heavies"), plus a variable number of interceptors.
In both cases, in scout or raider type divisions most "heavies" will be cruisers or battlecruisers, and in fighting-line divisions, more of the "heavies" will be battleships.

Krulle wrote:Actually, those armed ships became the foundation of the TCA:

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_terrans.html wrote: When both sides [Aldean colonies and the Martian colonies under the lead of Yinghuo] began arming their transports, escalation seemed inevitable, and the TCA charter was amended to allow for the formation of the Terran Colonial Fleet. Under the terms of the agreement, the Aldean Self-Defense Force surrendered its armed ships to the new Colonial Fleet, and all of the Aldean colonies (including the Yinghuo proxies) agreed to form a global federated government, which is a full member of the TCA and persists to the present as the only planetwide government in Human space.

Ah, I got the jump there somewhat. The TCA's responsabilities were amended, not installed, with the Aldean Crisis.
Might be a nice question for Arioch if (some of) the ships numbered ECS 1 through 19 are the former Aldean Self-Defense ships.

Zarya wrote:

GeoModder wrote:
In any case, we're talking about 30 known Umiak divisions in this assault alone, divided over 5 fleets. I kinda doubt the Tellai -and Tinza Sector Fleet alone would be able to defeat that many divisions head on.

curious how you got to the count of 30 for the douchebags. Rounding up I’m counting only 27

Courier message via Leido Sala post reporting 6 divisions active in Sala 128 (calling for assistance)
Strikegroup 20 at Sala 101 reporting 3/4 divisions incoming from Peze 1 (possibly Kikitik-27 following from Naam).
In the Leido system initially 8 divisions from Rallis splitting into groups, And 3 additional “groups” (Gota Relay later mentions 2 divisions) deep jumping into the system. Then followed by the 6 Khalka divisions, also from Rallis.

According to Beryl 8 divisions equals approximately 600 vessels, that’s about 75 per division.
As far as we currently know a fleet of at least 2025 is involved in this entire action, of which 1275 (63%) are in the Leido system.

Those deep jumping divisions divided themself to cover 3 targets. Comm chatter above Lashret Stillstorm on page 130 mentions them as an additional 6. Hence the 2 extra divisions Gora Relay mentions in its communication with Highland-7.

I think the whole force the Umiak pushed through the Rallis jump zone is part of the "Khalkha Divisions", not just those last 6 divisions.

Arioch wrote:

GeoModder wrote:I do wonder how much of the Tinza Sector Fleet is engaged at Sala 128 though. It depends on whether the whole Sector Fleet participates in the incursion at that star, or if for this enemy force the Farseers were unable to provide reliable data too like in Naam, meaning the Loroi Sector Commander might not have committed her whole battle fleet yet.

The Tinza Sector Fleet based at Azimol has a strength of about 5 divisions, the majority of which are at Sala 128. The Tinza reserves at Nezel have a strength of about 4 divisions, but due to the Code Four alert, some of these will be moving toward Sala 128 (if they are not already). The joint Seren-Tinza front shares a combined raider force of about 3 divisions (9 groups), but due to action prior, only two groups (SG51 and SG20) are currently in position to participate.

The sizes of divisions vary widely by type and according to current strength but in general:
A typical Umiak division consists of 15 squadrons of 5 (75, 15-20 of which are "heavies"), plus 25-50 gunboats.
A typical Loroi division consists of 3 groups of 4 squadrons of 8 (96, of which 16-24 are "heavies"), plus a variable number of interceptors.
In both cases, in scout or raider type divisions most "heavies" will be cruisers or battlecruisers, and in fighting-line divisions, more of the "heavies" will be battleships.

Thanks for the info.
That's more battle divisions in a frontline sector fleet then I thought there would be. Would there be more reserve divisions further "down" the sector, for instance in Laget or something?
In any case I reckon the Maiad -and Seren Sector Fleets might have more strength since they seem to attrack more of the Umiak assaults, with the Sector Fleets in the sectors without a frontline having less divisions overall.

That means there are about 2.000 umiak ships in the sector facing approximately 1.000 loroi ships.

That seems quite lackluster for a major, war deciding offensive by a race that outnumbers the Loroi anyway.

So either there are major reserves still hidden or there is something fishy going on with this offensive.

Or the k/d ratio of SG51 is even more impressive than we had realised.

Or the whole rest of the front is under a similar attack, thereby denying the Loroi to send the deeper reserve fleets anywhere specific, as they won't know where the breakthrough will be, and also denying them shifting the fleets along the border.

Usually I'd agree but this is their surprise attack after counteracting farseeing. The first wave should be their breakthrough to use surprise.

Having a localised 2-1 advantage as an attacker is disappointing. Perhabs they hope to make up for it by gaining an advantage thanks to poor Loroi intel.

Werra wrote:Usually I'd agree but this is their surprise attack after counteracting farseeing. The first wave should be their breakthrough to use surprise.

Having a localised 2-1 advantage as an attacker is disappointing. Perhabs they hope to make up for it by gaining an advantage thanks to poor Loroi intel.

The ~20 division gatecrasher force has bypassed the front line and is en route to attack the reserve base defended by -- at best -- 4 divisions.

Isn't it basically "game over" for an inhabited planet if even a few Umiak ships get within striking distance? They'll start hitting major population centres and cause catastrophic damage to infrastructure and loss of life, not to mention ecological damage. I don't know how keen the Loroi are on civil defence, but planets will always be soft targets.

Maybe the Umiak are doing this as a kind of "kamikaze" attack designed to punch through the front lines and cause havoc in the interior; even if the Loroi eventually push them back or surround and destroy them, the damage and loss of civilian life will cripple the Loroi Union.

Remember, the Umiak are not seeking to conquer and exploit the Loroi; they want to wipe them out.

Victor_D wrote:Isn't it basically "game over" for an inhabited planet if even a few Umiak ships get within striking distance? They'll start hitting major population centres and cause catastrophic damage to infrastructure and loss of life, not to mention ecological damage. I don't know how keen the Loroi are on civil defence, but planets will always be soft targets.

Maybe the Umiak are doing this as a kind of "kamikaze" attack designed to punch through the front lines and cause havoc in the interior; even if the Loroi eventually push them back or surround and destroy them, the damage and loss of civilian life will cripple the Loroi Union.

Remember, the Umiak are not seeking to conquer and exploit the Loroi; they want to wipe them out.

Considering the Umiaks suicidal tactics I can really see a Umiak ship out of resources for a continued campaign to simply crash their ship into a target. They would in function be a small asteroid damage wise, a city hit by one at high speed would be HURT!

Sweforce wrote: Considering the Umiaks suicidal tactics I can really see a Umiak ship out of resources for a continued campaign to simply crash their ship into a target. They would in function be a small asteroid damage wise, a city hit by one at high speed would be HURT!

A ship out of resources is usually a soft target itself for any fixed defenses near such a target.

Sweforce wrote:Considering the Umiaks suicidal tactics I can really see a Umiak ship out of resources for a continued campaign to simply crash their ship into a target. They would in function be a small asteroid damage wise, a city hit by one at high speed would be HURT!

Well, if they crashed into the planet at a significant fraction of the speed of light, it would be more a matter of wiping out continents rather than cities...

If I am calculating it correctly (and given that I don't know the dry weight of Umiak vessels), then if Loroi "Nazali"-class destroyer (dry weight 75 kt) hit a planet at 0.1 c (30,000 km/s), its kinetic energy would correspond to about 8,066 teratons TNT, or about 300 dinosaur-killer asteroid impacts.

In other words, more than enough to totally annihilate the planetary biosphere.

(Please someone tell me I calculated this wrong...)

The good news is that Deinar III has experience with and countermeasures against hypervelocity impacts.

hi hi

Now that we know the Umiak are bringing their resupply in close proximity to their main fleet, I wonder if their deep jump/main fleet deployment model is meant to keep their main fleet and supplies in reserve until they reach their main target.

Edit: triple checked my math. My calculations show that the energy released in a 75 kiloton object hitting at .1c would be about 3.4x10^22 joules, or about 8.13 teratons of tnt.

The Chicxulub Crater/Dinosaur Killer asteroid had about a 120 Teraton explosion, according to my sources.

Arioch wrote: "That simplifies our problem." - Col. Lewis “Chesty” Puller, in response to being informed that his 1st Marine Regiment was surrounded and outnumbered by Chinese forces at Chosin Reservoir, Korea 1950

Anyone on here familiar with the Death Korps of Krieg from a Warhammer 40,000 will appreciate the parallel.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Now that we know the Umiak are bringing their resupply in close proximity to their main fleet, I wonder if their deep jump/main fleet deployment model is meant to keep their main fleet and supplies in reserve until they reach their main target.

Edit: triple checked my math. My calculations show that the energy released in a 75 kiloton object hitting at .1c would be about 3.4x10^22 joules, or about 8.13 teratons of tnt.

The Chicxulub Crater/Dinosaur Killer asteroid had about a 120 Teraton explosion, according to my sources.

Good, I must have missed a few orders of magnitude somewhere

In any case, a considerable energy capable of causing massive damage to the planet and its ecology, infrastructure and population.