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Page 137: Adieu SG-51 
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Post Page 137: Adieu SG-51
http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider137.html


Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Looks like we'll be seeing more of Ashrain in the future.


Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:23 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Arioch, excellent as per usual. I’m waiting with baited breath to see how this engagement plays out. We may not see it from Jardin’s POV, but we’ll definitely be hearing about it down the road.


Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:15 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
They're going to link up with SG 20.
I wonder, is it in the Union Navy custom as well if two commanders share the same rank, the senior one has command over all vessels? Or is command over a group strictly separated as long as a higher ranking officer didn't make it official?

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Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:17 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
GeoModder wrote:
I wonder, is it in the Union Navy custom as well if two commanders share the same rank, the senior one has command over all vessels? Or is command over a group strictly separated as long as a higher ranking officer didn't make it official?

Under normal circumstances they would remain separate units, but they could still mutually agree to operate together.

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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
One for the retroactive page edit log: In the first panel I noticed the word "reinforcemnts" which could use another E. ;)


Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:47 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
This nicely demonstrates the limitations of Outsider-verse FTL technology. The lack of FTL communications can be a major problem.

In fact, it makes the scenario even more WW1-like; forces on the fronts of the Great War were also greatly hampered by the primitive communications infrastructure, which showed especially during major offensives. Albeit, it mosty favoured the defender, whereas here it actually helps the attacker.

(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)


Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:24 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Is it too soon for saying "Yup, they are boned"?


Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:39 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
It ain't over 'til the antimatter containment fails.


Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:28 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Huh, this page wasn't locked for patreons on your patreon page, are you changing policies or something?


Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:09 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Victor_D wrote:
(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)

The system is constructed so that causal violations are essentially impossible. The entry and exit points of the jump are light years apart, so even if you did end up going backwards in time a fraction of a second, no one would notice.

Excellion wrote:
One for the retroactive page edit log: In the first panel I noticed the word "reinforcemnts" which could use another E. ;)

Thanks for the correction.

boldilocks wrote:
Huh, this page wasn't locked for patreons on your patreon page, are you changing policies or something?

When the new page is posted on well-of-souls.com and Patreon at the same time, there isn't any point in locking it.

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:29 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
hi hi

Arioch wrote:
Under normal circumstances they would remain separate units, but they could still mutually agree to operate together.
That is interesting, I was half expecting some sort of system of seniority or political favor to establish a definitive hierarchy. But I suppose under normal circumstances, this keeps fleets from being unnecessarily co-opted by a commander who is down on their luck and thinks that their mission is more important than any other.

(too bad for all the people who were hoping for a traditional mud wrestling match to determine leadership.) :P

---

Now, I can't really be sure after only a few panels of dialogue, but I'm totally getting the impression that Moonglow has something of a griefer archetype going on. She might be tactically competent and isn't going to do stupidly careless things, but I suspect that her favorite moments are the ones where she gets to camp the spawn point and own noobs. Chaos and mayhem are all part the griefer's preferred environment, add to that the way she sort of needles her allies, and it kinda looks like she's in her element right now.

But that's just my immediate impression.

---

This all reminds me of those times when I'd be playing MOO1, and I think I'm doing okay with a fleet of a few hundred ships, then I see the computer sending a fleet of a few thousand my way. :lol:


Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:05 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
icekatze wrote:
That is interesting, I was half expecting some sort of system of seniority or political favor to establish a definitive hierarchy. But I suppose under normal circumstances, this keeps fleets from being unnecessarily co-opted by a commander who is down on their luck and thinks that their mission is more important than any other.

Two commanding officers might have a disagreement over which is in overall command or over which orders to follow, but chain of command is something that can't be ambiguous; troops can't have any doubt about whose orders to follow. It's generally improper to issue orders directly to another officer's subordinates, even if that officer is your subordinate.

I believe this is the way command structure works in pretty much all militaries. If you have two companies of infantry each led by a captain, one captain can't just start giving orders to the other captain's troops, even if he is senior. The order is given to the other captain.

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:58 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
So if Ashrain and her impromptu command manages to sent Stillstorm's warning to the reserve fleet at Nezel, would she be free to attempt to join SG51 again?

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:26 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
GeoModder wrote:
So if Ashrain and her impromptu command manages to sent Stillstorm's warning to the reserve fleet at Nezel, would she be free to attempt to join SG51 again?

Well, in that case she'll be out of contact with her immediate superior, and in the absence of specific orders she'll have to use her own judgement about what to do. If a higher-ranking officer (say, the admiral commanding the reserve fleet) gave her instructions, she would be expected to comply (provided that those instructions did not conflict with her current orders), but that's her decision. Without FTL communications, commanders at every level need to be able to exercise some autonomy and to negotiate with other commanders.

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:49 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
hi hi

Arioch wrote:
I believe this is the way command structure works in pretty much all militaries.
I'm not sure I conveyed my meaning clearly.

I don't think it is surprising that two officers of equal rank cannot give orders to each other, and that under normal circumstances, they would need to go up the chain of command. But I half-expected the complicated nature of Loroi ranking to have kinds of tie breakers, whether that would be proximity of relation to the emperor, age, length of hair, or whatever. Certainly when the next leg up in the chain of command is several jumps away, it might pose problems if they are required to resolve a dispute on the spot.

It is my understanding that the chain of command is something that has evolved over human history, and it wasn't until WW2 that arrangements to organize command authority among mixed units of size and nationality became prevalent. There are examples in earlier history where cooperation between commanders was entirely optional but successful, like Wolfe and Saunders at Quebec, 1759; or Grant and Porter at Vicksburg, 1862. And examples where it was optional and uncooperative, like the inter-service rivalry between army and navy in Imperial Japan.

It is interesting to think about what kind of standards and practices might have evolved over time to help Loroi commanders make these kinds of decisions. To cooperate or refuse, when they have the command authority to do so.


Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:05 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
I think that it is a negotiation, depending on the situation and the orders that each officer has. Seniority and prestige will certainly play a role -- in a contest between two strike group commanders, Stillstorm's prestige is certainly going to be a factor. But I don't think there are going to be hard rules here... in a fleet where a mediocre officer can serve for 200 years, seniority isn't necessarily viewed as the most important factor.

Within a unit, there are protocols for working out conflicts (the senior security officer decides who is right), but between units, in the absence of specific orders or an established chain of command, the commanders have to agree on what to do or who to follow.

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:32 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Victor_D wrote:
In fact, it makes the scenario even more WW1-like; forces on the fronts of the Great War were also greatly hampered by the primitive communications infrastructure, which showed especially during major offensives. Albeit, it mosty favoured the defender, whereas here it actually helps the attacker.
I'd say even worse than that; you could still send a message from the front lines back to London within a couple of hours if the lines hadn't been broken by artillery, rain, or clumsy soldiers (not quickly enough during battle, however). Outsider combat seems more akin to 19th Century Naval combat when the best messaging you had was semaphore flags and light shutters. Captains and Commanders were essentially left up to their own devices on how to achieve the Empires goals once they left harbour.

icekatze wrote:
Now, I can't really be sure after only a few panels of dialogue, but I'm totally getting the impression that Moonglow has something of a griefer archetype going on. She might be tactically competent and isn't going to do stupidly careless things, but I suspect that her favorite moments are the ones where she gets to camp the spawn point and own noobs.
I'm finding myself hoping that her ship is the next one to suffer a reactor containment failure.


Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:29 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
icekatze wrote:
Now, I can't really be sure after only a few panels of dialogue, but I'm totally getting the impression that Moonglow has something of a griefer archetype going on. She might be tactically competent and isn't going to do stupidly careless things, but I suspect that her favorite moments are the ones where she gets to camp the spawn point and own noobs. Chaos and mayhem are all part the griefer's preferred environment, add to that the way she sort of needles her allies, and it kinda looks like she's in her element right now.

But that's just my immediate impression.


She certainly seems that way but in warfare that's arguably the best possible trait one wants in a commander. Fair fights are for (dead) suckers, in a war you want as an unfair fight in your favor as you possibly can. I would gladly take a griefer over an honorable knight as a commander every single time if I was given the choice.

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Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:01 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Eek. This is gonna get messy. This is what happens when the enemy has a massive numbers advantage and is attacking along a wide front.

Someone in an earlier post said it was like the Soviets going on the full offensive against the Germans in the east during WW2 in the final phases of the war - that seems a particularly apt metaphor. The war might not be over, but it's a good metaphor.


Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:40 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Arioch wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)

The system is constructed so that causal violations are essentially impossible. The entry and exit points of the jump are light years apart, so even if you did end up going backwards in time a fraction of a second, no one would notice.

That's what I thought, thanks :) It's great when sci-fi authors don't just handwave this stuff but cleverly work around it.

Witty_Username wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
In fact, it makes the scenario even more WW1-like; forces on the fronts of the Great War were also greatly hampered by the primitive communications infrastructure, which showed especially during major offensives. Albeit, it mosty favoured the defender, whereas here it actually helps the attacker.
I'd say even worse than that; you could still send a message from the front lines back to London within a couple of hours if the lines hadn't been broken by artillery, rain, or clumsy soldiers (not quickly enough during battle, however). Outsider combat seems more akin to 19th Century Naval combat when the best messaging you had was semaphore flags and light shutters. Captains and Commanders were essentially left up to their own devices on how to achieve the Empires goals once they left harbour.

Pretty much yes, although I prefer land-war analogies here due to the static nature of strategic combat in Outsider. They have the "pony express" network of couriers so they can ask for general orders, but the commanders in field must by necessity have the authority to respond as they see fit. I think their "communication speed" is about 10 systems per day, so waiting for the Emperor to issue an order to retreat or commit reserves is not an option.

Funnily, this is why later Roman emperors preferred to stay closer to the frontiers...

wedgekree wrote:
Eek. This is gonna get messy. This is what happens when the enemy has a massive numbers advantage and is attacking along a wide front.

Someone in an earlier post said it was like the Soviets going on the full offensive against the Germans in the east during WW2 in the final phases of the war - that seems a particularly apt metaphor. The war might not be over, but it's a good metaphor.


I think that was I. The Loroi seem to be totally surprised; it reminds me of operation Bagration where the Loroi are the poor Army Group Centre about to be wiped out.


Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:47 am
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Victor_D wrote:
(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)

I've read a Russian science fiction book where author thought about this aspect. According to his calculations jump shouldn't be instant for outsider, but must take some delay to not allow to travel back in time. This delay is mostly defined by relative speed of stars, so for nearby stars delay would be marginal and constant. It shouldn't make any difference for any practical application.
Reference to book's wiki page about jump drive (in Russian):
http://www.spacians.net/wiki?name=Скачковый+двигатель
Looks like local parser is confused by Cyrillic letters in URLs.

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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
SVlad wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)

I've read a Russian science fiction book where author thought about this aspect. According to his calculations jump shouldn't be instant for outsider, but must take some delay to not allow to travel back in time. This delay is mostly defined by relative speed of stars, so for nearby stars delay would be marginal and constant. It shouldn't make any difference for any practical application.
Reference to book's wiki page about jump drive (in Russian):
http://www.spacians.net/wiki?name=Скачковый+двигатель
Looks like local parser is confused by Cyrillic letters in URLs.

Yes, the jump is not instantaneous.

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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
I love how Alex is panicing, Talon is swearing up a storm because she's doing everything she can not to panic, and the cruiser captains are treating this like a game of starcraft. Seriously, I am almost expecting one of the captains to yell out GG.


Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:52 pm
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Post Re: Page 137: Adieu SG-51
Arioch wrote:
Victor_D wrote:
(I wonder, Arioch, if you had given some thought to possible causality violations brought about by the existence of FTL; in a large part, these violations become far less likely if no FTL communications and no "free" FTL travel exists)

The system is constructed so that causal violations are essentially impossible. The entry and exit points of the jump are light years apart, so even if you did end up going backwards in time a fraction of a second, no one would notice.


While it isn't time travel, it is still a causal violation since the ship arrives long before the light of the ship making the jump gets to where it is. Whether this can be exploited to cause any wierdness is another matter.


Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:48 pm
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