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Can you imagine how the Loroi would win a war against the Barsam and the Neridi, when the Umiak are at the other side of their own region?

They would have to fight a 3-front war, at least.

Plus, the "client races" might be less enthusiastic about providing you witht he best materials and technology, which is essential for the war efforts.

Also: Barsam page is now linked on the frontpage, as well as an announcement...
("There will be a new page this week" - YAY!)

Krulle wrote:Can you imagine how the Loroi would win a war against the Barsam and the Neridi, when the Umiak are at the other side of their own region?

They would have to fight a 3-front war, at least.

Plus, the "client races" might be less enthusiastic about providing you witht he best materials and technology, which is essential for the war efforts.

Also: Barsam page is now linked on the frontpage, as well as an announcement...
("There will be a new page this week" - YAY!)

I wasn't talking about the current war situation per se, but more generally. The Loroi Union was formed, as far as I am aware, long before the war with the Umiak erupted.

Uups. Indeed. Some 580 Earth years. (http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/loroi_timeline.html)

But after the Mannadi wars, Loroi population seems to have been tired of war.
And after the way the Loroi military handled the Enok incidents, morals came into play.
The Loroi understand themselves to be warriors of the highest morales.
And genocide is also in their eyes something not befitting someone of high morales.

The Loroi emperor did threaten with war. (Just like the US threatens any country with war that wishes to bring US soldiers to court for war crimes.)
She knew the Loroi might win the war against multiple others, but it would be tight. And might incite other nations to also attack and seize the opportunity.
So, a Union where the only member with a real military is the Loroi was a better choice.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_war_history.html wrote:Fourth Emperor Greywind also announced a new anti-neutrality doctrine, aimed directly at the neighboring Tithric, who at best were unable to prevent Umiak sorties through their neutral territory, and at worst may have been actively assisting them. Greywind sent Admiral Sunfall, hero of the Golim-Tinza battles, to force the Tithric to choose sides. While the Tithric government delayed, Sunfall began conducting strikes into Tithric territory to interdict Umiak forces, but also to destroy depots that Sunfall claimed were being used to refuel Umiak raiders. Tithric public outrage over these raids resulted in the rise of a pro-Umiak government to power, and the Tithric formally sided with the Umiak in mid-2141. In a battle that lasted most of that year, Sunfall shattered the combined Umiak and Tithric forces and (with Imperial consent) laid waste to the Tithric planets, rendering them unusable to the Umiak, and annihilating the vast majority of the Tithric population. With the pressure on Laget relieved, the Loroi celebrated this event as a critical victory, but the genocide came as a shock to the other races, including many Loroi allies. The Umiak shortly thereafter declared a similar doctrine refusing to recognize the rights of neutrality, and both sides would use this policy in the coming years as pretext for action against and annexation of the remaining non-aligned nations.

Yeah, well, the other races might be uprising now, if they'd subjugated them back after the Mannadi incidents.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Hmm, things aren't looking up for humanity. Here's another major race/culture in the Union who probably aren't going to be very interested in human entertainment as a trade good. We'd better hope the Neridi have a cavernous appetite for cheesy human romance novels and hollywood action flicks.

Seriously though, it was an interesting read. For some reason, I've got the notion in my head that the Soia and the Gatherers might have been enemies at the fall of the Soia empire, instead of one and the same, or maybe a different faction of Soia. Not that I have any conclusive reason to think that, just a feeling that maybe the Barsam are jumping to conclusions on some of their religious beliefs, even if they look supported on the surface.

Also, Josetchi sounds like a nice place for Alex to live, should he remain the sole human diplomat for the rest of his days. Or, if he gets promoted to the post after returning to Earth a hero.

I wonder what the Barsam think of the higher dimensions that are used for FTL jumps, if those factor into their mythology at all.

Well, the Barsam at least seem rather mercantile-minded. In lieu of war, they seem to have embraced commerce, with large corporations and estates.
As for the Soia, I still think they would machine minds. To a more primitive people, these beings would be labeled incorporeal spirits.

Victor_D wrote:I still don't get why the Loroi agreed to form the Union with the "lesser" races like Barsam, Neridi and others, when they likely could have just defeat and occupy them. Submitting to war crimes tribunals? It seems a bit "out of character" for the Loroi.

Was it because it would have been simply too much of an inconvenience to laboriously crush all the smaller species and then occupy them at what would likely have proven to be quite a costly affair? Is the Union in fact a form of "benign overlordship", in that its creation essentially gave the Loroi what they wanted (control over the smaller nations) without having to fight them openly?

Despite their martial culture, most Loroi never desired dominion over the other nations; the wars they fought were always defensive in nature (at least, from the Loroi point of view). The prospect of a civil war between their long time friends and allies was not a welcome one, and they had just been through a long, costly war and an occupation that had essentially failed. The Union gave the Loroi essentially everything they wanted: peace on their own terms with a minimum of outside interference, and de facto supremacy. To be clear, the Loroi did not submit to war crimes tribunals: one of the key concessions the Loroi required to join the Union was the recognition that no Loroi warrior can be held to any outside justice; any alleged crimes against Loroi must be judged in Loroi courts.

Victor_D wrote:I guess if e.g. the Barsam wanted to leave the Union (Barxit?), the Loroi would not take kindly to the notion, am I correct? So what is this entity if not the Loroi Empire going by other name?

It's very much a Loroi Empire, but since the Barsam were key in triggering its formation, they would be among the last to want to leave. The Barsam desire peace above all else; they were willing to pay tribute to the Nissek for centuries in an attempt to avoid war (even after that attempt largely failed). As long as they can live in peace and do as they please (which they can under the Union), they don't care whose name is at the top of the list. The Barsam have more international clout now than they did before the formation of the Union (though one of the two consuls at the head of the Union Assembly is appointed by the Loroi, the second (elected) one is often Barsam), and it was the protection of the Union (specifically, of the Loroi) that finally ended Nissek territorial and tributary demands.

The Neridi and Pipolsid had long been, in effect, client states to the Loroi, and so Union membership changed little aside from codifying their rights as members. The rest were subjugated and occupied nations, and so had no say in the matter.

Well, if Humanity at some point becomes a Union member, and with the Barsam probably convinced Humanity is the Loroi template species, it could certainly increase their attempts to change the status of the Nibiren.

Just how big of a difference is there between the niberen and barsam? Just how solitary are the niberen and how intelligent?

hi hi

It does seem a little strange, now that I think about it, that the Barsam believe they originated outside the local bubble, but their supposed template species exists inside the local bubble. I wonder how that is reconciled in their own philosophy.

Also, I remember the Barsam Captain going "Tch" when Tempo was first explaining things to Alex. Is that a sound that the Loroi wouldn't make, given that it isn't in their version of trade?

Solitary species, eh? Tough for a technological society. One wonders just how they evolved higher intelligence (they don't live in a 3D environment like dolphins or apes, are not social so they would not have to know advanced behavioral traits, and are herbivores, so no need to outsmart prey).

Jericho wrote:Just how big of a difference is there between the niberen and barsam? Just how solitary are the niberen and how intelligent?

Most Nibiren are under 6' tall, while most Barsam are over 7'. Nibiren are intelligent enough to make and use primitive tools, and have basic language skills (gesture+vocalizations). They are traditionally solitary like bears or orangutans, living with their juvenile offspring, occasionally interacting with other Nibiren at the boundaries between their territories to trade and to mate. The Barsam have taught some Nibiren to farm and created small Nibiren villages, but the adults have some trouble getting along with each other in close quarters, and so most prefer to stay on their own parcels.

Mr.Tucker wrote:Solitary species, eh? Tough for a technological society. One wonders just how they evolved higher intelligence (they don't live in a 3D environment like dolphins or apes, are not social so they would not have to know advanced behavioral traits, and are herbivores, so no need to outsmart prey).

They're not herbivores, they're tool-using omnivorous hunter-gatherers. They share a common ancestor with the less-intelligent Diidadi, which are smaller, faster, with longer tails and less skill with tools, and which live on the open plains and deal with the larger predators primarily by running away. The Nibiren dealt with the predators by moving off the plains into the foothills and building shelters, but in doing so they had to spread out and establish territories to avoid exhausting local food supplies (whereas the Diidadi are nomadic and move in groups to new locations to find more food, like elephants). Presumably, their common ancestor was more social.

icekatze wrote:It does seem a little strange, now that I think about it, that the Barsam believe they originated outside the local bubble, but their supposed template species exists inside the local bubble. I wonder how that is reconciled in their own philosophy.

That is, the source of the biology (and/or technology) from which they were derived came from outside the local bubble.

icekatze wrote:Also, I remember the Barsam Captain going "Tch" when Tempo was first explaining things to Alex. Is that a sound that the Loroi wouldn't make, given that it isn't in their version of trade?

Loroi can make the same sounds that humans can make, and so she might make a noise like that, but it would be unlikely unless she picked it up from spending time around Barsam.

Do Barsam ships/shipclasses usually have names related to their religion?
At least, cpt. Mozin's Prophet class courier has a name derived from it.

How deep permeates the Barsam church into their society? Do economic entities who seem profit-driven like the Agumo Conference and Shuvo Industries also actively promote the teachings of the Barsam Church or is that left to the employees according to their religious beliefs? Cpt. Mozin did seem to have strong feeling on the matter back on page 65.

GeoModder wrote:Do Barsam ships/shipclasses usually have names related to their religion?
At least, cpt. Mozin's Prophet class courier has a name derived from it.

Not all, but many do. Kind of like European (and especially Spanish) ships in the age of sail, the majority of which had pious names like Santa Maria, La Trinidad, or Cinco Llagas.

GeoModder wrote:How deep permeates the Barsam church into their society? Do economic entities who seem profit-driven like the Agumo Conference and Shuvo Industries also actively promote the teachings of the Barsam Church or is that left to the employees according to their religious beliefs? Cpt. Mozin did seem to have strong feeling on the matter back on page 65.

It goes deeply in the sense that you won't have to ask a Barsam captain or high-ranking corporate executive whether he is religious, any more than you would need to ask the captain of a Spanish galleon in 1688 whether he was a practicing Christian; he wouldn't have the position if he wasn't. However, promotion of religious values is the job of the church and not private enterprise. There is a baseline assumption that everyone will comport themselves in a pious and proper manner; but a trader who doesn't believe in profit or a mercenary who isn't willing to use force won't keep his job for very long. So it comes down to the situation and the people involved.

While the Barsam church does promote charity, it has no prohibition against profit.

Yeah, the parallel with European Renaissance practices did come to mind when composing those questions.
Thanks for the answers.

How does Agumo the Armis ring stabilized?
"The Ringworld is unstable!"

SVlad wrote:How does Agumo the Armis ring stabilized?
"The Ringworld is unstable!"

It uses magnetic coils spaced around the ring which push against the planet's magnetic field.

Arioch wrote: It uses magnetic coils spaced around the ring which push against the planet's magnetic field.

What happens if the planet's magnetic field reverses?

Gorbash wrote: What happens if the planet's magnetic field reverses?

The coils are connected with gyro stabilizers.

OK, if the Agumo is held in stable "orbit" by a magnetic field, how is this field powered? I.e., this is an active system, where does it get it's power, what power source could last for 500k years without refueling and maintenance? That alone must be some quite amazing piece of tech that should be of a lot of interest to the Barsam and pretty much everybody else.

*addition* and I do wonder how the Barsam and pretty much everyone else didn't f*ck it up when they discovered and started studying it?

entity2636 wrote:OK, if the Agumo is held in stable "orbit" by a magnetic field, how is this field powered? I.e., this is an active system, where does it get it's power, what power source could last for 500k years without refueling and maintenance? That alone must be some quite amazing piece of tech that should be of a lot of interest to the Barsam and pretty much everybody else.

*addition* and I do wonder how the Barsam and pretty much everyone else didn't f*ck it up when they discovered and started studying it?

Solar power.

Geostationary orbits are pretty stable; it wouldn't require much power at all to correct for minor invariances. Even if only 10% of the power/coil units are still operating, that's plenty to do the job. And I'm not sure what the Barsam could do to screw it up; even if they somehow disabled all of the power units, the ring would stay in a stable orbit for thousands of years.

Somehow I don't quite buy it. Even if the ring is in a geostationary orbit, it will be a very unstable system because it encircles the whole planet and gravity and centrifugal forces work on the ring from all sides. Even the slightest uncompensated change in position would be transferred onto the opposing point of the ring and the effect will double in strength. What I mean is, if something acts on one point of the ring resulting in this point getting closer to the planet (say, a meteor impact or the gravitational pull of a passing asteroid, or gravitational resonance with another planet in the system, or whatever, even the natural unevenness of the planet's gravity due to surface features or irregularities of internal composition, you get the point), there will be a point diametrically opposite this point that will be forced farther from the planet. The gravitational pull on the closer point gets stronger and weaker on the opposite point. This effect will pretty much instantly "run away" and the ring will collapse without constant control and adjustment which solar powered ion engines as RCS thrusters probably can't manage.

You said there are some space elevators connecting the Agumo to the planet's surface... If there are more than one of them, their shafts/masts could be seen as working as additional anchors to keep the ring station in place, if it weren't for plate tectonics... Is Armis geologically active?