Moderator: Outsider Moderators
Why is that? If the Umiak can't see them, then the Prophet's Reason probably can't see them.GeoModder wrote:You can consider ship sensors out.
Actually their are other techno signs to look for. The search for extrasolar planets are finding planets rapidly now. Simple astronomy should have placed earth on their maps since ancient times and a spectrograph analysis of our atmosphere would point at air pollution, giving them a head start on the invention of the radio of a century or so at least. And long before then, a planet with an oxygen rich atmosphere is cause enough for a FTL capable civilization to pay us a visit. It is perfectly possible that they left a sentinel probe behind and the reason it stopped transmitting was that humanities technology where becoming advanced enough to detect it and the historians wanted it to remain secret for the time being.Errhile wrote:The Historians certainly have been around the local bubble for ages, but it is kinda difficult to intercept signals if there aren't any (first radio broadcast is dated in 1906, with first radio signals being transmitted in second half of the 19th century.
And keep in mind radio waves have limited speed: at interstellar distances, even if the receiving instruments are adequately sensitive to pick that up, that signal wouldn't be there for decades, centuries and even millenia (depending on distance).
Before that, well, Earth was a rather nondescript planet at the ass-end of spaceso unless a Historian vessel (or a vessel by someone who later passed the data to the Historians) happened to investigate it, and investigate cultures (not a single one, I guess) of the local intelligent species (not really doable via electromagnetic signal interception before 1906!) by more or less setting their own "boots on the ground" (I'd assume that at their TL, the Historians would have no problem with creating a scout that would pass unnoticed in a city of that era... or simply poaching some humans for questioning!), they simply had hardly a chance to learn that.
Of course, we have absolutely no idea what the Historians actually do know, apart from the fact they certainly aren't omniscient...
Nope, well not much. Imagine that you work as a security guard at the Pentagon, you work in highly sensitive areas with high ups around you gossiping about things that really shouldn't be publicly known. This does not mean you have access to sensitive materials. You may overhear talking but since you are such an able guard, that is all you register, people talking. Who these people are and what they talk about simply do not register in your mind since you are professional enough to not actually listen. In case you are captured, the only thing you can really give up is some now invalid security codes to doors you needed to be able to pass.boldilocks wrote:The barsam probably know because the Historians know.
Ie, the Historian construct on the Barsam vessel knew that his on-shuttle container hadn't been destroyed and the container has audio/visual capabilities that the historian construct could access to realize that the shuttle was fine.
The historian then informed the Barsam of this and they hatched this idea. Or didn't, and just contacted Alex on its own.
The barsam are still full fledged member of the alliance, not employees. If the barsam don't know then either the construct is lying and there's not help coming and the barsam have left the system or the construct is lying and the barsam are near but are going to run at the first opportunity. I don't really see any reason for the construct to talk to alex in either case at that point.Sweforce wrote:Nope, well not much. Imagine that you work as a security guard at the Pentagon, you work in highly sensitive areas with high ups around you gossiping about things that really shouldn't be publicly known. This does not mean you have access to sensitive materials. You may overhear talking but since you are such an able guard, that is all you register, people talking. Who these people are and what they talk about simply do not register in your mind since you are professional enough to not actually listen. In case you are captured, the only thing you can really give up is some now invalid security codes to doors you needed to be able to pass.boldilocks wrote:The barsam probably know because the Historians know.
Ie, the Historian construct on the Barsam vessel knew that his on-shuttle container hadn't been destroyed and the container has audio/visual capabilities that the historian construct could access to realize that the shuttle was fine.
The historian then informed the Barsam of this and they hatched this idea. Or didn't, and just contacted Alex on its own.
The barsam may know that they are carrying secrets, they need not know what thease secrets are.
The only method we've been using with any success to detect Earth-size planets in Earth-sized orbits hundreds of light years away is the transit method, which requires the planet to pass between the observer and the star. The odds that the plane of our orbit is exactly aligned with any particular observer are extremely small. Union space is rimward from us and just below the galactic plane; from our point of view that's the constellation Taurus, which is well above the orbital plane, so I don't think it's possible to detect Earth from Union space using the transit method.Sweforce wrote:Actually their are other techno signs to look for. The search for extrasolar planets are finding planets rapidly now. Simple astronomy should have placed earth on their maps since ancient times and a spectrograph analysis of our atmosphere would point at air pollution, giving them a head start on the invention of the radio of a century or so at least. And long before then, a planet with an oxygen rich atmosphere is cause enough for a FTL capable civilization to pay us a visit. It is perfectly possible that they left a sentinel probe behind and the reason it stopped transmitting was that humanities technology where becoming advanced enough to detect it and the historians wanted it to remain secret for the time being.
Unless I misunderstand what I've read, getting a spectrograph for a planet requires either a transit or for the observer to be very near the plane of the orbit, so that it can observe the difference between lit and shadow sides of the planet. An observer in the Union will be looking at our system from well above the orbital plane, and so won't see much difference as the planets move during year; if there's no regular change, then there's no reliable way to distinguish the planet's spectrum from the star's. Webb's planetary observations, as I understand it, are going to be primarily targeted at systems that have planets we've already detected using other methods: mostly red dwarfs with close-in terrestrial planets, and larger stars with 10+ Jupiter mass planets at ~100 AU orbits that can be directly imaged.icekatze wrote:The telescopes that we've been using to detect transits are pretty primitive by today's standards, let alone the standards of an old space faring civilization. (The Hubble was hoisted in 1990, with a 2.4 meter lens.)
Many of the next generation telescopes are expected to have the capability to directly detect orbiting earthlike planets, and perform spectroscopic analysis of any potential atmosphere to detect oxygen. The ground based Giant Magellan Telescope and Thirty Meter Telescope, and the space based Wide Field Infrared Survey Telescope and James Webb Space Telescope are all expected to be able to make direct observations of exoplanets.
If it's the Historians we're talking about, this is a moot argument. Historians don't sit at home and stargaze; they've had unmanned scouts crawling the Orion arm for thousands of years. But they don't share their knowledge base with others.icekatze wrote:I imagine that the Historians could put a telescope into space with a lens larger than 30 meters somewhere if they wanted.
I'm not sure what you've read, but that is not my understanding. Exoplanet Atmosphere Measurements from Direct Imaging, Beth A. Biller, Mickaël Bonnefoy. talks in pretty good depth and in relatively plain terms, about the different techniques and upcoming telescopes' abilities. Direct imaging can find absorption lines in the IR and near IR spectrum to detect the presence of certain molecules like water or molecular oxygen.Arioch wrote:Unless I misunderstand what I've read, getting a spectrograph for a planet requires either a transit or for the observer to be very near the plane of the orbit
I think the discussion is about the Historians, and how much they could possibly know about Humanity beyond what was in the Bellarmine's data banks.Arioch wrote:If it's the Historians we're talking about, this is a moot argument.
Looks like I misunderstood what you meant. I assumed you meant to say the Historian attempted to contact Alex because Prophet's Reason's sensor suite had picked up the Highland shuttle in powered-down mode.icekatze wrote:hi hi
Why is that? If the Umiak can't see them, then the Prophet's Reason probably can't see them.GeoModder wrote:You can consider ship sensors out.
That leads to two basic conclusions for the people on board, the shuttle has either powered down to avoid detection, or was destroyed. Since the captain supposedly made the request, then the captain knows that the Historian construct has a capability that at least the Umiak lack, and probably the Barsam lack, since the Barsam didn't try it themselves.
Sounds a lot like how I usually play a tall side in a strategy game. Build up, out tech my neighbors to an unchallengable degree, then roll over them when I need something they have and can't otherwise acquire.CrimsonFALKE wrote:Wait hold it if the Historians have been fucking exploring beyond the known space why aren't they fighting more openly? I mean they could have Unmanned Space Combat Vehicles deliver hell fire to the Ukami homelands? This tech seems to be like they are holding out to make gains later but what good will that do?
CF2 wrote:Sounds a lot like how I usually play a tall side in a strategy game. Build up, out tech my neighbors to an unchallengable degree, then roll over them when I need something they have and can't otherwise acquire.CrimsonFALKE wrote:Wait hold it if the Historians have been fucking exploring beyond the known space why aren't they fighting more openly? I mean they could have Unmanned Space Combat Vehicles deliver hell fire to the Ukami homelands? This tech seems to be like they are holding out to make gains later but what good will that do?
They're probably as invested in this war as they need to be to ensure acceptable relations with their allies and minimal military involvement. An Umiak front opening up on their systems might bring them more wholeheartedly into the war -- or give them an excuse to bow out.
So they not interested in war with neighbors.
