How humanity can affect the war, by turning the moon into a deathstar.

[Mk_C]

If you don't claim that the Loroi are bad at applying technology, then whatever does all of that have to do with the Loroi being likely or unlikely to miss an obvious application of a technology which they've made extensive use of for centuries and in several actual wars?

It has to do with different societies discovering and applying technologies in different ways. Ways which can be optimal in some circumstances and suboptimal in others. But whether they are optimal or not, this leads to differences in how technology is understood, developed and applied.

You can duckduckgo how toasters work, you know. Cheeky, I know, but why do you claim obvious falsehoods?

But how would, say, a Pipolsid go about googling how a toaster works? He doesn't understand what "toasting" is. He can, once again, google the concept, but then he'll run into the issue of not understanding "bread", "crispy" and "strawberry jam". Keep picking up links and by the way of "chewing", "wheat" and "sweetness", this curious Pipolsid will eventually come to conclude that toaster is some sort of a Human electrical contraption utilized for transforming some forms of a specific kind of nutritious substance into different, circumstantially preferable forms of nutritious substance by the way of applying heat to it. But beyond the concepts of "nutrition", "electricity" and "heat", most of what makes toaster a toaster would not make any more sense to this curious jellyfish than *smelling* the *happy campers* who are busy *squeezing the juice*. it will be words without much meaning attached to them. Consequentially, we might wish to subject this jellyfish to an experiment in comparative electrical engineering and, after showing him a great deal of blueprints and bread toasting videos, task him with manufacturing a toaster of his own. The Pipolsid in question will likely find this most fascinating and eagerly agree to participate. With some gruelling trial and error, he will eventually assemble a toaster for us! At which point we will go

Wow, looks very nice, very sleek. But... ehm, why so much electric insulation over everything? Well, it's... it's not supposed work underwater, you know. The proper medium would be nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere. And what's with the batteries, why not just use a cabl~ oh, I see, the electrical cord is sold separately, strange decision, but you do you. But... iOS integration? Who needs to control a toaster through their iPhone? Why not just press a button on the side or turn a dial or pull a lever or something... wait a minute, 5G uplink? Photo gallery?

To which the Pipolsid in question will retort that his approach is obviously a massive improvement over conventional human designs, that truly adapts the user experience to perfectly suit every need. We will have no choice but to disagree, as nothing in the history of ever was improved by adding iOS integration to it, and it never gets the crispiness just right. But then we will be dismayed to find out that while we were arguing, the Pipolsid in question found investors and his toaster is rapidly conquering the Asian markets. America and EU still resist, but after hundreds of suicide attempts are thwarted by the Pipolsid toasters thrown into a bathtub refusing to electrocute anyone, the Pipolsid design specifics are made into mandatory safety regulations for all toaster manufacturers, including not only waterproof design, but separate power cord and iOS integration as well. Our curious Pipolsid finds himself a dollar billionaire, mostly spending his wealth on bread, toasters and strawberry jam, and his free time on spreading jam across toasts and intently watching it dry. And media is now all abuzz with his new MoD contracts, and their possible implications.

Which will leave us with some questions - who has more perfect understanding of the toaster technology? Us or this little Pipolsid? Who eventually determines which one is closer to being perfect? Academics, market, warfare application? And could it really be that perfection of any technology eventually converges to controlling it through an iPhone, whether it is used to make breakfast or glass planets? Is it really all about finding ways to sell the charger separately? What is this god-damn technological perfection, and why does it have to be so overpriced?

Yes, it can. We constantly do it, especially in physics and engineering. The nuclear bomb is maybe the most famous example for just that.

Yeah - it's so separated that we blew it up without ever building one.

Like any Aethenian, Socrates was full of shit. Or his former boy lover Plato was.

Where's Dragoongfa when you really need him?

[Werra]

It has to do with different societies discovering and applying technologies in different ways. Ways which can be optimal in some circumstances and suboptimal in others. But whether they are optimal or not, this leads to differences in how technology is understood, developed and applied.

Very theoretical. What is your case for a century lasting oversight in laser technology that has not only affected Loroi, but also all other species of the local bubble?

But how would, say, a Pipolsid go about googling how a toaster works?

The laws of physics that govern technology are universal. It is possible to attain perfect understanding of a given technology. In fact it is even possible to exhaust scientific fields as a whole. Something which we've done so already as dirtbound humans. There's at least one professor for chemistry whose chair was made obsolete because the madlad finished his field decades earlier than expected by using a computer algorhytm to generate every possible configuration of the materials he studied.

Yeah - it's so separated that we blew it up without ever building one.

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device.

Where's Dragoongfa when you really need him?

Oh come on, he can't even spell dragon correctly.

[Krulle]

You mistake their lack of speed of advancement for a lack of rigor in application

I'm not sure academic process can be dissected like that.

It can. The most prominent example for that is the believe that war is good for scientific advancement. Truth is, the scientific theories are developed in peacetime. In wartime, scientific progress usually stops in favor of applying the recent scientific discoveries to practical effects.

Which allows to confirm theories much better than plain non-practicing science can.
Which inturn allows for the theories to be refined, and further developed.

In war, there's simply more money available if you could make weapons out of the science.

In peace times, only thise theories get developed that allow for making money.
Some spare money aside for the theoretical acience, but not enough to develop it as fast as fully dedicated scientists could.

[Mk_C]

What is your case for a century lasting oversight in laser technology that has not only affected Loroi, but also all other species of the local bubble?

Pretty much none, I don't think that particular one could really work out that way. As I said on the previous page - "laser arrays aside".

The laws of physics that govern technology are universal. It is possible to attain perfect understanding of a given technology.

But technology is more than an extension of the universal laws of physics. An object existing is not sufficient for it to be understood. A mind busy understanding it the is as necessary as the object itself, and as such plays as much role. And the whole point is that the minds doing the understanding are somewhat different, even without accounting for things like extraterrestrial species from webcomics. And if we consider not just any object but technology, we might remember that those take not an individual mind, but a society to figure them out. And societies can be even more different, even when made up out of very similar minds.

In fact it is even possible to exhaust scientific fields as a whole.

But a field getting "exhausted" does not mean that we gain a perfect understanding of the subject - it only means that we come to realize how flawed were the questions that this field poised towards it's object, and that we need to figure out an entirely new approach for poising different questions on the same subject. It's not the perfect understanding - it's the realization of how flawed the previous understanding and it's whole approach was. We did not exhaust thermal chemistry by figuring out how much phlogiston do different kinds of matter contain - we figured out that it's a flawed approach on the whole, and that even finding out (in a very different way) what exact quantities of chemical bond energy do most kinds of compounds contain and predicting those quantities for hypothetical compounds largely settles us with more questions than answers. There are practical byproducts, but nothing of it has anything to do with obtaining a perfect understanding of even very practical (and as such more distant form the universal principles of the object and closer to us and our subjective social needs) matters. And every time we feel like we're figuring it out it turns out that a clear picture we started to obtain was more of our minds drawing logical dependencies and beautiful symmetries that do not reflect the object with anything resembling perfect clarity, being more of our own projections that somewhat resemble the object. And different minds and collectives never end up projecting exactly the same thing on the object.

Something which we've done so already as dirtbound humans. There's at least one professor for chemistry whose chair was made obsolete because the madlad finished his field decades earlier than expected by using a computer algorhytm to generate every possible configuration of the materials he studied.

I don't know the specific matter you're referring to, but I'd wager that if there's still any use for said materials then there is still a ton of studies surround them, just not with that particular approach.

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device.

But the theoretical groundwork of fission has as much to do with understanding the peculiarities of a nuclear detonation as observing two rocks collide has to do with automotive vehicle safety. That's part of the reason for why we popped so many of the ugly things, and in such variance. Theory and practice walking hand in hand.

[MBehave]

You say is theoretical but its not in Outsider.
Its been stated that human culture allows us to advance far faster then other races due to open ideas.

Outsider Timeline
Humans independently went from planet bound to jump drives in ~120 years.
Loroi went from planet bound to exploring local space in 400 years and finding a jump drive.
Then took 100 more years to reverse engineer the jump drive technology and produce their own.

Humans have just independently developed blaster technology ~80 years after developing jump drives.
Loroi took it from the Delrias 450 years after inventingReverse engineering the Jump drive.

Humans have reached a state in around 200 years that the Loroi took 950 years to reach and by being provided technology.
To make it even worse they had 3 fully populated planets for half of that time.

Loroi were given dumbed down plasma tech by the Historians... and even with the help from the Historians couldn't reproduce it properly.
Umiak had Plasma focuses from the start, Loroi also still can't copy it.

You keep claiming the Loroi develop their technical ability to a higher degree... can you provide any proof?

I would say that its completely reasonable to suggest Humans develop laser arrays while the Loroi who poached almost every primary technology they are currently using didn't.

Historian Weapons are vastly superior to what they could do with lasers.
Umiak Plasma Focus and Torpedoes combined arms with the limited use of Torpedoes by Loroi also make Laser arrays worse for them then what they are using.

Both these races may very well have used laser arrays in the past, but they are not better then they have now.
The only combatant that would actually see a use out of laser arrays would be the Loroi.

This idea you have that the Loroi are careful precise learned "researcher" race that develops a technology in full before advancing does not match the lore I can find.

They are a violent militant stratified society that has trouble adapting and is currently losing.

It has to do with different societies discovering and applying technologies in different ways. Ways which can be optimal in some circumstances and suboptimal in others. But whether they are optimal or not, this leads to differences in how technology is understood, developed and applied.

Very theoretical. What is your case for a century lasting oversight in laser technology that has not only affected Loroi, but also all other species of the local bubble?

But how would, say, a Pipolsid go about googling how a toaster works?

The laws of physics that govern technology are universal. It is possible to attain perfect understanding of a given technology. In fact it is even possible to exhaust scientific fields as a whole. Something which we've done so already as dirtbound humans. There's at least one professor for chemistry whose chair was made obsolete because the madlad finished his field decades earlier than expected by using a computer algorhytm to generate every possible configuration of the materials he studied.

Yeah - it's so separated that we blew it up without ever building one.

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device.

Where's Dragoongfa when you really need him?

Oh come on, he can't even spell dragon correctly.

[Werra]

But technology is more than an extension of the universal laws of physics. An object existing is not sufficient for it to be understood.

I mean, yes, understanding is a function of an intelligent mind. The technology itself however is universal in what it does. A toaster will always be a machine that uses electricity to heat up and eject something put inside it. Therefore, it is possible to understand a given piece of technology fully, or perfectly. Your sophistry is missing the point, as your hypothetical scenarios do not show an impossibility of understanding, but the chance of some culture being too different to understand. Which does not disprove what you're arguing against at all.

But a field getting "exhausted" does not mean that we gain a perfect understanding of the subject - it only means that we come to realize how flawed were the questions that this field poised towards it's object, and that we need to figure out an entirely new approach for poising different questions on the same subject.

Now you're just making claims that do not follow from each other and are increasingly vague. I repeat, we have -literally- done science on certain subjects and found everything there is to know about it. That happened. Knowledge as a whole may be infinite, but it can be compartmentalized into solvable pieces. If I take you by your word, you're saying we need to "poise" different questions to the wheelbarrow and the knife and fork.

But the theoretical groundwork of fission has as much to do with understanding the peculiarities of a nuclear detonation as observing two rocks collide has to do with automotive vehicle safety. That's part of the reason for why we popped so many of the ugly things, and in such variance. Theory and practice walking hand in hand.

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device. So we can clearly separate the formulation of scientific theories and the implementation in real world applications. Which is just one example for how wartime slows down the rate of discovery for new basic principles and theories and increases the rate of implementation.

In war, there's simply more money available if you could make weapons out of the science.
In peace times, only thise theories get developed that allow for making money.
Some spare money aside for the theoretical acience, but not enough to develop it as fast as fully dedicated scientists could.

A nation under war stress does not put its efforts into scientific projects that might not even have practicable effects in the real world for decades or at all.

Its been stated that human culture allows us to advance far faster then other races due to open ideas.

Outsider Timeline
Humans independently went from planet bound to jump drives in ~120 years.
Loroi went from planet bound to exploring local space in 400 years and finding a jump drive.
Then took 100 more years to reverse engineer the jump drive technology and produce their own.

Humans have just independently developed blaster technology ~80 years after developing jump drives.
Loroi took it from the Delrias 450 years after inventingReverse engineering the Jump drive.

Technically this only proves that humans are advancing faster, not that they will advance further than the other species. But if you want me to go into more detail about my simple position, no problem.

The Loroi have made use of lasers for centuries and apparently managed to keep their laser technology up to date enough to win actual wars with it. They also have been in contact with other alien species, any number of which can make their own discoveries, which in turn should inspire the Loroi to improve. They have the Mizol caste for a reason, afterall. To say that a species with no experience with actual fighting with these weapons comes up with a new, basic technique that massively increases a lasers efficiency, is very optimistic. The longer lasers have been in use for the other species, the less likely a fundamental oversight becomes. We aren't talking about a timespan of decades or just the Loroi here. It's been centuries and all of the local bubble seemingly missed that trick.

You keep claiming the Loroi develop their technical ability to a higher degree... can you provide any proof?

They apparently make the switch to new technology very late, only after many of the teething problems have been solved. At least that's what seems to be implied by how the Deinar world wars went. This seems to hint at a rather strong rigor in sounding out all aspects of a new technology. If you want a real world example how a very conservative, technologically practically frozen society can explore all options of the technology they have, take a look at Japanese guns. At the end of the Edo-period, their firearms were very sophisticated examples of the guns the Portugese brought them centuries earlier.

They are a violent militant stratified society that has trouble adapting and is currently losing.

In the current war the Loroi have not only developed and fielded entirely new weapons to match their opponents arms, they also took strong measures to change their economy which enabled them to keep the balance with their opponents numbers. In addition, the Loroi also shifted their doctrine as required by the catastrophies of this war, i.e. their use of light ships after they lost most heavy fleet assets in the Semoset campaign.
A violent, militant, stratified society is not inherently inflexible.

[MBehave]

Ehh your example proves my point, like it actually proves my point...

Japanese firearm development
Matchlocks were introduced, they kept using matchlocks until they started importing at the end of the Edo period far more advanced firearms from the western world.
With the following advances Japanese failed to make.
Cartridge, revolvers, rifling in both pistol and long guns, pointed bullet over ball for increased accuracy and range, and lastly but not least repeating rifles were becoming the next major upgrade.

While the Japanese technology was still smooth bore matchlocks.

So you want to claim that the Japanese understanding of ballistics and gunpowder was more advanced then the western world and they imported those advanced firearms because they just couldn't be bothered making them?

Your own example completely disproves your point and shows how a inflexible culture even when it adapts a weapon on mass fell far behind in the development and understanding of theory and physical application to improve that weapon.

Japanese implementation of firearms in warfare was more advanced then the western world intill the mid/late 1700s, but thats a completely different thing then understanding/improving the technology itself.

Japan=Loroi
Western world=Humanity
Point proven=100%
So I present to you Japanese development of the firearm(failure too) as my PROOF of my point.

Next.
Loroi didn't develop the basis for for the Pulse cannon or the wave loom, they created them based on Historian provided Plasma weapon technology they couldn't replicate and they are both the results of that failed application.
The Loroi don't even make their blasters they use on their ships, they have whats effectively a slave race that invented them still make them.

I have not seen anywhere where its implied Loroi investigate all avenues of research, you stated its implied but I have not read a single thing that would suggest that.
Can you actually provide something because It seems its your bias to want too assume, which is completely different from implied.

Technology advancement beyond theory requires application.
Humans in Outsider are advancing at a far faster rate in APPLIED TECHNOLOGY then the Loroi did, for you to claim that slower advancement in applied technology = greater understanding is completely illogical to me without providing proof from Insider.
I love the outsider universe and have read everything here https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/insider.html I don't claim to have a perfect memory but I don't remember anything that would support what you claim.

Some quotes from insider on Loroi...
"As a warrior culture, Loroi society is heavily stratified, and its institutions and customs can be very rigid."

On caste system.
"As the name implies, the castes are mostly hereditary -- the daughter of a member of a warrior caste is normally expected to follow in her mother's footsteps. For the military castes, some movement is allowed, but it is very limited. A female child is formally assigned by her family to a caste at about age six; normally this is the same caste as her mother (see the article on Warrior Rites). Some of the warrior castes have very specific genetic or psionic traits as requirements, so often being qualified means being the child of a caste member, but it sometimes means that a qualified individual in a sought-after specialty might be admitted regardless of her heritage."

I could point out that being a researcher just because your mother was vs Humanity(in theory) rising the most qualified people into top spots of every field based on actual academic ability is likely to result in far better technology advancement and even basic understanding of theories involved.

But technology is more than an extension of the universal laws of physics. An object existing is not sufficient for it to be understood.

I mean, yes, understanding is a function of an intelligent mind. The technology itself however is universal in what it does. A toaster will always be a machine that uses electricity to heat up and eject something put inside it. Therefore, it is possible to understand a given piece of technology fully, or perfectly. Your sophistry is missing the point, as your hypothetical scenarios do not show an impossibility of understanding, but the chance of some culture being too different to understand. Which does not disprove what you're arguing against at all.

But a field getting "exhausted" does not mean that we gain a perfect understanding of the subject - it only means that we come to realize how flawed were the questions that this field poised towards it's object, and that we need to figure out an entirely new approach for poising different questions on the same subject.

Now you're just making claims that do not follow from each other and are increasingly vague. I repeat, we have -literally- done science on certain subjects and found everything there is to know about it. That happened. Knowledge as a whole may be infinite, but it can be compartmentalized into solvable pieces. If I take you by your word, you're saying we need to "poise" different questions to the wheelbarrow and the knife and fork.

But the theoretical groundwork of fission has as much to do with understanding the peculiarities of a nuclear detonation as observing two rocks collide has to do with automotive vehicle safety. That's part of the reason for why we popped so many of the ugly things, and in such variance. Theory and practice walking hand in hand.

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device. So we can clearly separate the formulation of scientific theories and the implementation in real world applications. Which is just one example for how wartime slows down the rate of discovery for new basic principles and theories and increases the rate of implementation.

In war, there's simply more money available if you could make weapons out of the science.
In peace times, only thise theories get developed that allow for making money.
Some spare money aside for the theoretical acience, but not enough to develop it as fast as fully dedicated scientists could.

A nation under war stress does not put its efforts into scientific projects that might not even have practicable effects in the real world for decades or at all.

Its been stated that human culture allows us to advance far faster then other races due to open ideas.

Outsider Timeline
Humans independently went from planet bound to jump drives in ~120 years.
Loroi went from planet bound to exploring local space in 400 years and finding a jump drive.
Then took 100 more years to reverse engineer the jump drive technology and produce their own.

Humans have just independently developed blaster technology ~80 years after developing jump drives.
Loroi took it from the Delrias 450 years after inventingReverse engineering the Jump drive.

Technically this only proves that humans are advancing faster, not that they will advance further than the other species. But if you want me to go into more detail about my simple position, no problem.

The Loroi have made use of lasers for centuries and apparently managed to keep their laser technology up to date enough to win actual wars with it. They also have been in contact with other alien species, any number of which can make their own discoveries, which in turn should inspire the Loroi to improve. They have the Mizol caste for a reason, afterall. To say that a species with no experience with actual fighting with these weapons comes up with a new, basic technique that massively increases a lasers efficiency, is very optimistic. The longer lasers have been in use for the other species, the less likely a fundamental oversight becomes. We aren't talking about a timespan of decades or just the Loroi here. It's been centuries and all of the local bubble seemingly missed that trick.

You keep claiming the Loroi develop their technical ability to a higher degree... can you provide any proof?

They apparently make the switch to new technology very late, only after many of the teething problems have been solved. At least that's what seems to be implied by how the Deinar world wars went. This seems to hint at a rather strong rigor in sounding out all aspects of a new technology. If you want a real world example how a very conservative, technologically practically frozen society can explore all options of the technology they have, take a look at Japanese guns. At the end of the Edo-period, their firearms were very sophisticated examples of the guns the Portugese brought them centuries earlier.

They are a violent militant stratified society that has trouble adapting and is currently losing.

In the current war the Loroi have not only developed and fielded entirely new weapons to match their opponents arms, they also took strong measures to change their economy which enabled them to keep the balance with their opponents numbers. In addition, the Loroi also shifted their doctrine as required by the catastrophies of this war, i.e. their use of light ships after they lost most heavy fleet assets in the Semoset campaign.
A violent, militant, stratified society is not inherently inflexible.

[boldilocks]

Historically the western world (and humanity as a whole) hasn't been merit based when it comes to science or anything else, even in modernity. It's mostly either hereditary or clique based, with most advancement being done by people put in their position because of who they knew or who they were or what public opinions they espoused,
and it is not clear that a purely meritocratic system would necessarily be an improvement.

[DevilDalek]

Did you guys just have a three page argument over toasters?

God knows what's gonna happen if I ask 'what filling does Stillstorm prefer in her toasties'.

[Werra]

Critical Constructivism is a hell of a drug. You do it once and you argue to the death that nobody can understand toasters.

This thread has once again shown that nobody who uses this forum is capable of pissing a hole in the snow.

[DevilDalek]

Hey, I only came in to suggest maybe the moon already was a Death Ray festooned Ancient Alien artifact, and a secret human leadership has been keeping it from Alex's world.

[Mk_C]

Did you guys just have a three page argument over toasters?

It's about how various species and civilizations may or may not experience a diverging process of scientific development subsequently achieving parallel yet different forms of applied technology withing the framework of the same fundamental laws of nature. So yes, essentially about toasters, toasters and laser arrays. And we'll carry on with it now. There's nothing you can do about it, except joining in.

God knows what's gonna happen if I ask 'what filling does Stillstorm prefer in her toasties'.

I firmly stand by the specific immediate consequence of my position in that proper toasties are likely unknown in Loroi culinary culture, and are yet to discover this particular frontier of deliciousness. Which most likely means that by the time I click "submit" there will already be a post from Jim canonizing that she prefers them with siberg fruit syrup or something.

The technology itself however is universal in what it does.

But how can it be universal if it's essentially a function of a social mind, when those minds are not the same? It doesn't make any sense even mathematically.

Your sophistry is missing the point, as your hypothetical scenarios do not show an impossibility of understanding, but the chance of some culture being too different to understand.

But there's no impossibility of understanding, implied or otherwise. Just difference in what this understanding is for different contexts. This understanding can be more (or less) advanced in terms of practical outcomes compared to each other, but none of it can be absolute.

Now you're just making claims that do not follow from each other and are increasingly vague.

But they do follow from each other rather clearly, I think. We were concerning ourselves with the concept of inevitable technological convergence that would come from even parallel perfect understandings of a given technology by different scientific efforts, I criticized this by questioning the idea of a perfect understanding being possible, you made a negation introduction through toasters, I made an example of how different approaches to understanding toasters would put us against a dilemma of what specific understanding of toasters among many can be considered perfect or closer to perfect, you appealed to the universal nature of fundamental natural principles and how they can be analytically deconstructed into objective reflections of themselves in knowledge, I pointed out how knowledge and understanding inherently include more than said objective universality and that no complete analytical understanding of any facet of fundamental principles has been ever achieved as research field that is being exhausted is not an objective reflection of universal principles but merely a collection of our subjective socially-determined issues, approaches to those issues and practical solutions to them, nothing of which appears to relate to perfect understanding of even minor parts of objective universality that would be a reason for a clear and certain convergence in application of those principles. Seems consistent, no?

I repeat, we have -literally- done science on certain subjects and found everything there is to know about it.

Not everything - only what can be explained within the current paradigm. What you call "everything there is to know about it" is just a past paradigm coming to the limits of applicability of it's (limited and flawed) methods. It's like saying that celestial mechanics were perfected with Kepler's laws.

but it can be compartmentalized into solvable pieces

But this compartmentalization process is a specific product of specific scientific efforts by specific cultures and societies, carrying their inherent subjectivity.

If I take you by your word, you're saying we need to "poise" different questions to the wheelbarrow and the knife and fork.

SpoilerShow

The theoretical groundwork of fission was done decades earlier and essentially understood without solving the engineering troubles of actually building a single nuclear device.

It's not really done even today. It was done just enough to make a nuclear explosion device possible, and then a lot was learned through observation of it's action, as well as by other practical means. The observed phenomena laid ground for new theoretical approaches, which in turn made new experiments possible. Theory and practice are two distinct things, but one cannot really exist without the other in the process of understanding the principles of nature and their application.

They apparently make the switch to new technology very late, only after many of the teething problems have been solved. At least that's what seems to be implied by how the Deinar world wars went. This seems to hint at a rather strong rigor in sounding out all aspects of a new technology.

Only hint, and only in certain interpretations among many, as MBehave has kindly pointed out.

In the current war the Loroi have not only developed and fielded entirely new weapons to match their opponents arms

*had someone else develop and hand out new weapons for them.

they also took strong measures to change their economy which enabled them to keep the balance with their opponents numbers.

One.
Dead.
Azerein.
At a time.

A violent, militant, stratified society is not inherently inflexible.

Every kind society has capacity for a great deal of inflexibility, and a violent and stratified one is very likely to be inflexible in some immediately apparent ways. Some of these ways seem to manifest rather plainly in the Loroi Union.

Critical Constructivism is a hell of a drug. You do it once and you argue to the death that nobody can understand toasters.

Much like anime, logical empiricism was a mistake. Cold knowledge is a myth.

This thread has once again shown that nobody who uses this forum is capable of pissing a hole in the snow.

We are but wretched things united by our common anguish and insatiable thirst for blu elf tiddies, aren't we?

[Werra]

@MK_C

For the unwise man 'tis best to be mute
when he come amid the crowd,
for none is aware of his lack of wit
if he wastes not too many words;
for he who lacks wit shall never learn
though his words flow ne'er so fast.

I'll demonstrate why I thought of that verse with this quote of yours.

"But how can [technology] be universal if it's essentially a function of a social mind, when those minds are not the same? It doesn't make any sense even mathematically." No matter what mind looks at it, a machine that heats up something will always do so when the physical, objective prerequisites for its function are met. In this sense, the technology is universal. Whether a culture likes its toast from wheat or corn is irrelevant for the function of the toaster.

[Mk_C]

I'll demonstrate why I thought of that verse with this quote of yours.

We have to admit said lack of wit to ourselves and to those who have more of it if we are to ever learn anything, aren't we?

"But how can [technology] be universal if it's essentially a function of a social mind, when those minds are not the same? It doesn't make any sense even mathematically." No matter what mind looks at it, a machine that heats up something will always do so when the physical, objective prerequisites for its function are met.

But so does a napalm bomb as well. A laser. A nuclear reactor. A Wave-Loom. If those things are all defined by heating up something when the physical, objective prerequisites for its function are met, what is it that makes them different? Aside from their wattage, of course, but we can suppose that a nuclear reactor is a toaster for really big and well-done toasts.

In this sense, the technology is universal. Whether a culture likes its toast from wheat or corn is irrelevant for the function of the toaster.

But didn't I explain how a culture's approach will reflect in the qualities of a toaster with the curious little Floater?

[Werra]

But so does a napalm bomb as well. A laser. A nuclear reactor. A Wave-Loom. If those things are all defined by heating up something when the physical, objective prerequisites for its function are met, what is it that makes them different? Aside from their wattage, of course, but we can suppose that a nuclear reactor is a toaster for really big and well-done toasts.

Is this a bot? I'm serious here.

[Mk_C]

Is this a bot? I'm serious here.

SpoilerShow

Please no bully little bots.

[MBehave]

He is pointing out all technology is linked by basic principles, its a bit weird how he did it to me and I had to read it twice but who is to say thats not on me?

The discussion is suppose to be for fun.
Much the same as who would win, Superman or Spiderman... the fun is in the discussion and hearing everyones ideas on the matter.

But so does a napalm bomb as well. A laser. A nuclear reactor. A Wave-Loom. If those things are all defined by heating up something when the physical, objective prerequisites for its function are met, what is it that makes them different? Aside from their wattage, of course, but we can suppose that a nuclear reactor is a toaster for really big and well-done toasts.

Is this a bot? I'm serious here.

[Werra]

MK_C is coming up with one "technically true" statement for several machines and derives from this that an objective understanding of said machines is impossible. Which is either dishonest or insane, as "makes heat" is too broad to even be a category. Nobody capable of deciphering the workings of a toaster would ever mistake a nuclear power plant for something similar to one. Cultural relativism is all well and good, but these minds must function within the framework of physics. Whether you measure meters or feet, the physical distance remains the same.

It's not a discussion, it's white noise.

[MBehave]

You missed the point.
Pyramids
Examples of advanced science in engineering/mathematics.
Purpose? non scientific ideology of the "next life" based on a unproven belief system.
Are the Pyramids logical?
NOPE, NOT EVEN CLOSE.

Just because you wouldn't build a nuclear reactor to make toast doesn't mean aliens wouldn't, humans have put vast amounts of efforts into rather illogical things, yet as humans we can understand for example why the Pyramids were built even if we don't agree with them.

The point being made was aliens will do things because they are alien, it is not suppose to make sense to you.

Calling people trying to explain something to you "white noise" is insulting and disrespectful.

MK_C is coming up with one "technically true" statement for several machines and derives from this that an objective understanding of said machines is impossible. Which is either dishonest or insane, as "makes heat" is too broad to even be a category. Nobody capable of deciphering the workings of a toaster would ever mistake a nuclear power plant for something similar to one. Cultural relativism is all well and good, but these minds must function within the framework of physics. Whether you measure meters or feet, the physical distance remains the same.

It's not a discussion, it's white noise.

[Mk_C]

MK_C is coming up with one "technically true" statement for several machines and derives from this that an objective understanding of said machines is impossible. Which is either dishonest or insane, as "makes heat"

Oh that's simple. You tied the technological function of an applied technology to the most basic physical process involved in said function. I made an example of how we can similarly reduce a great deal of indeed very different applied technology to the same basic process, yet I believe we can agree that those things are not the same, can't we? This serves to illustrate that describing a technology entirely through the fundamental physical principles involved in it's functions is inherently reductive. Toaster and incandescent lightbulb both convert electrical current into EM emissions and heat through essentially the same process, but reducing them entirely to this process strips them of any recognizable meaning - since however precisely we describe the basic principle of a toaster heating things up, it takes more than those principles for a toaster to be a toaster. It requires a purpose to which is being used (toasts to toast) and means through which said purpose is achieved by involving the basic principles of metal heating up when subjected to high current. Things somewhat separated from total objectivity. Yet without those, we can't really meaningfully describe a technology.

Cultural relativism is all well and good, but these minds must function within the framework of physics.

This has very little to do with cultural relativism though. Nobody is arguing that objective reality doesn't exist - you're essentially arguing that subjectivity does not exist beyond maybe personally me having my subjective (and thus utterly wrong) personal opinion, while the rest of social practical function and condition are rather free from it.