How humanity can affect the war, by turning the moon into a deathstar.

[Ithekro]

Basically, a scientist from another world will understand the science used in a toaster just fine. If handed one, they could figure out what it does in scientific terms. However, without context, they might know know what the toaster is used for, or why it was designed that way. Without context and without any similar needed within the scientists culture, they won't understand that the toaster is for, and thus have no need to design such a device at any stage of their development.

Their culture, however, may develop the components and technology used in a toaster, but apply them in a different use. They will not have any toasters on their planet if they have no purpose for one, as design follows function. And if they do not require a function, they will not design it.

However, in terms of weapons, we are talking about a collections of races that have developed space weaponry for at least a millennium. Their weapons are far in advance of Human weaponry in 2160. Laser weapons are old fashion in modern warfare. Likely for a good reason. It is possible that large applications of laser weaponry was too vulnerable to enemy weapons fire, too costly, generated too much waste heat, or simply did not provide the user with the amount of damage needed to justify its use in view of particle beam weaponry development. Given the amount of time and number of races, it is likely that various races did develop larger laser systems and laser arrays at some point. They aren't in use anymore. Probably because the particle beam weapons can do as much damage using smaller weapons batteries, thus allowing for more weapons per ship, verse a large laser array, or massive mirror or lens. Seriously, a 50 meter diameter emitter is just a target for a particle beam or plasma focus. We humans haven't even built a lens or mirror that large as of yet. And yes the Humans have laser weapons on their ships. They seems like they would be of use in combat, but only at very close ranges, and while the heavy lasers are limitedly on par with heavy blasters at point blank range, the medium lasers are a slow firing and significantly lacking in range versions of the Loroi Laser Autocannons.

Humans, while we might be advancing faster than average without known alien interference, we would probably be able to put Loroi or Umiak weapons designs into a crash course design bureau and come up with something at least worth fielding against the local powers. Improvements in both laser and particle beam weaponry are likely to be over our older 20th century ideas and 21st century technology extrapolated to the 22nd century. Or the dead ends will be found, and the reasons for going heavy into particle and plasma weaponry is found.

[Mk_C]

Basically, a scientist from another world will understand the science used in a toaster just fine. If handed one, they could figure out what it does in scientific terms. However, without context, they might know know what the toaster is used for, or why it was designed that way. Without context and without any similar needed within the scientists culture, they won't understand that the toaster is for, and thus have no need to design such a device at any stage of their development.

Their culture, however, may develop the components and technology used in a toaster, but apply them in a different use. They will not have any toasters on their planet if they have no purpose for one, as design follows function. And if they do not require a function, they will not design it.

Precisely my point.

Humans, while we might be advancing faster than average without known alien interference, we would probably be able to put Loroi or Umiak weapons designs into a crash course design bureau and come up with something at least worth fielding against the local powers.

It seems like post-war humanity will be using shittons of Mjolnirs. Considering their limited range even compared to lasers, the following conclusions would be:
1. Post-war TCA is still an absolute meme in terms of power compared to bigger players, and their military ships are, while better, still hopelessly outclassed by everyone else who has any.
2. Mjolnirs mounted on Arabelle and similar vessels are significantly better than the current, rushed and jury-rigged version of Mjolnir tied to the top of Americas and Victory with duct tape and modeling putty.
3. Both of the above.
4. Humans have figured out something fucky about the tactics so having seriously limited range options is not that much of an issue as it would be otherwise.

[Mr.Tucker]

Having thought about this for several years now, I've come to the conclusion that it is possible for a civilisation to skip certain technological avenues. For instance, in our world, the Greeks and Romans were not that far away from an actual industrial revolution (for instance, they knew steam had motive force behind it, and could build pistons made of bronze or brass; they knew a great deal about lense and optics, etc). The main cultural reason they did not was the rise of the platonists and Socrates (who despised practical experimentation, preferring, instead, natural observation) to the detriment of the sophists. Had this not happened, it might have ushered in a kind of lesser industrial age... but with no knowledge of gunpowder (which was a rather fortuitous discovery by Chinese chemists spending nearly 1000 years mixing substances in search of an immortality syrup). So... different indeed. No lighter than air balloons either.
Or the rise of a greater navigation culture if the Polynesians had not left Asia before the bronze/iron ages arrived, allowing them access to better ships to sail the world.

However, this mostly applies to pre-scientific discoveries. Once you have the scientific method, it's a lot easier to see possibilities.
Even then, political and cultural decisions might make some avenues untravelled. For instance, we never really took to fission powered spaceships (though we were close). Or built an Orion (even thought it had enough delta-V to go from Earth surface to Mars and back).
However, while a lesser culture might have surprising and ingenious concepts, a more advanced one can replicate them in a fraction of the time needed for that more primitive society to dream them up. For instance, if we wanted to replicate the (otherwise not widely used) Greek polybolos, I'd take us maybe 2-3 months. And ours would be better.
So... any such advantage would quickly be overcome and adapted to by the more advanced society.

[Werra]

The main cultural reason they did not was the rise of the platonists and Socrates (who despised practical experimentation, preferring, instead, natural observation) to the detriment of the sophists.

I think that had more to do with slaves being cheaper and easier to come by for the warlike Romans, than with philosophy. The Romans were gifted engineers and adapt at mass production of goods to flush their trade network with wares. So without slaves, they would have had to find another way to do the work required for that.

[MBehave]

Can't believe we are having a discussion about a toaster...

If aliens were given a toaster and not told/shown what it was for or what race made it, they would not know its a complete self contained device and its not part of a larger machine or itself not broken in some way.
Attempts to reverse engineer its purpose would be directly based on the aliens NOT humans view point of what it could be.

The point that sticks is Loroi are using lasers and using them in turrets of 3.
Making a proper array with the same output would give them extended range and not effect them as point defense.
So why don't they if they already know theory and have the practical experience?

Basically, a scientist from another world will understand the science used in a toaster just fine. If handed one, they could figure out what it does in scientific terms. However, without context, they might know know what the toaster is used for, or why it was designed that way. Without context and without any similar needed within the scientists culture, they won't understand that the toaster is for, and thus have no need to design such a device at any stage of their development.

Their culture, however, may develop the components and technology used in a toaster, but apply them in a different use. They will not have any toasters on their planet if they have no purpose for one, as design follows function. And if they do not require a function, they will not design it.

However, in terms of weapons, we are talking about a collections of races that have developed space weaponry for at least a millennium. Their weapons are far in advance of Human weaponry in 2160. Laser weapons are old fashion in modern warfare. Likely for a good reason. It is possible that large applications of laser weaponry was too vulnerable to enemy weapons fire, too costly, generated too much waste heat, or simply did not provide the user with the amount of damage needed to justify its use in view of particle beam weaponry development. Given the amount of time and number of races, it is likely that various races did develop larger laser systems and laser arrays at some point. They aren't in use anymore. Probably because the particle beam weapons can do as much damage using smaller weapons batteries, thus allowing for more weapons per ship, verse a large laser array, or massive mirror or lens. Seriously, a 50 meter diameter emitter is just a target for a particle beam or plasma focus. We humans haven't even built a lens or mirror that large as of yet. And yes the Humans have laser weapons on their ships. They seems like they would be of use in combat, but only at very close ranges, and while the heavy lasers are limitedly on par with heavy blasters at point blank range, the medium lasers are a slow firing and significantly lacking in range versions of the Loroi Laser Autocannons.

Humans, while we might be advancing faster than average without known alien interference, we would probably be able to put Loroi or Umiak weapons designs into a crash course design bureau and come up with something at least worth fielding against the local powers. Improvements in both laser and particle beam weaponry are likely to be over our older 20th century ideas and 21st century technology extrapolated to the 22nd century. Or the dead ends will be found, and the reasons for going heavy into particle and plasma weaponry is found.

[Werra]

Can't believe we are having a discussion about a toaster...

If aliens were given a toaster and not told/shown what it was for or what race made it, they would not know its a complete self contained device and its not part of a larger machine or itself not broken in some way.
Attempts to reverse engineer its purpose would be directly based on the aliens NOT humans view point of what it could be.

You're underestimating the aliens. If they understand enough physics to know how the toaster works mechanically, they're capable of deducing quite a lot. Definitely that it's self contained, likely enough to apply the technology on their own. So what the technology does is objective, what it's used for is subjective and irrelevant for replicating the appliance.

The point that sticks is Loroi are using lasers and using them in turrets of 3.
Making a proper array with the same output would give them extended range and not effect them as point defense.
So why don't they if they already know theory and have the practical experience?

Nobody knows. But the chances that they've missed something big about lasers are very slim, since they made heavy use of them.

[Mk_C]

I think that had more to do with slaves being cheaper and easier to come by for the warlike Romans, than with philosophy. The Romans were gifted engineers and adapt at mass production of goods to flush their trade network with wares. So without slaves, they would have had to find another way to do the work required for that.

Took words right out of my mouth.

Can't believe we are having a discussion about a toaster...

It is the way of things.

[Mr.Tucker]

The main cultural reason they did not was the rise of the platonists and Socrates (who despised practical experimentation, preferring, instead, natural observation) to the detriment of the sophists.

I think that had more to do with slaves being cheaper and easier to come by for the warlike Romans, than with philosophy. The Romans were gifted engineers and adapt at mass production of goods to flush their trade network with wares. So without slaves, they would have had to find another way to do the work required for that.

Don;t underestimate the effect that platonism had on scientific development. It was what led, eventually, to humor theory and to the exclusion of practical experimentation as validly scientific. It's said that what philosophers have been doing for the last two thousand years is debate over things Socrates said. Well... Socrates had quite a few points, but he was also something of a douche.

Slaves weren't cheap in Greece. I remember reading somewhere some comparative prices from ancient Athens. A stool was 6 drachmas, a table 13, and a housewoman 400. One could imagine a fit, trained slave (like a blacksmith) being more than 1000. So... car territory. Greece doesn't do well when it comes to feeding large numbers of people, so if you could replace mouths with boilers, it might help. Or maybe, even, the more mercantile carthaginians.

The Romans... we'll I'll concede the point. They had numerous conquests, and a plethora of slaves. However, they were pretty practical. If someone like Hero of Alexandria (a Hellenist, btw), could demonstrate the advantages a steam pump had compared to bare backs in, say, mining or metalworking (trip hammers) then I'd think someone would fund him.
Alas, all he made were tabletop stuff and toys. Because academics at the time were platonists, who didn't approve of practical implementation or experimentation.

Basically, what I'm saying is avenues can be ignored or glossed over (if you don't like the examples above, take the nuclear ones then... where's my NERVA/Orion?). But that won't save you from a technologically superior foe.
The Girandoni Air rifle was technologically superior in it's day. Aaaaand.... it'd be as dead as a musket against modern weaponry. And we can make a better one in a few months if we wanted.

Humans can't win a straight up fight against the empires.

[gaerzi]

You're underestimating the aliens. If they understand enough physics to know how the toaster works mechanically, they're capable of deducing quite a lot. Definitely that it's self contained, likely enough to apply the technology on their own. So what the technology does is objective, what it's used for is subjective and irrelevant for replicating the appliance.

There's a cord that shields three cables of conducive metal. One extremity of the cord ends in sort of head with contact surfaces such as protruding pins (exact details depending on which plug standard is used), so a technological civilization could deduce it's a plug and that the device requires to be plugged on a standardized power source. Looking at the device in itself, they'd note the resistors lined up on two sides of a flat, rectangular cavity open on one side. So they'd gather that the device serves to expose to heat objects likely to be shaped like a flat rectangle. Finally, they'd notice the lever system to turn it on and the timer that turns it off, and the knob that controls the timer, so they'd deduce that the device is used to expose the flat rectangle object to a standardized array of exposure to heat and then automatically stop.

That the toaster is used for food is not something they'd necessarily guess. A toaster is a very specific item, it's used just to cook slices of bread so to get that idea you need an analogue to slices of leavened bread. Maybe instead of bread the aliens have developed batteries that are charged by heat, so they'd think the toaster is a phone charger. Or maybe they'll be like our own archaeologists and go "no idea what practical use this weird thing might have had, so I'm gonna say it was a ceremonial item used in religious rituals".

[Ithekro]

Shades of "Motel of the Mysteries" by David Macaulay.

[Mk_C]

That the toaster is used for food is not something they'd necessarily guess. A toaster is a very specific item, it's used just to cook slices of bread so to get that idea you need an analogue to slices of leavened bread. Maybe instead of bread the aliens have developed batteries that are charged by heat, so they'd think the toaster is a phone charger. Or maybe they'll be like our own archaeologists and go "no idea what practical use this weird thing might have had, so I'm gonna say it was a ceremonial item used in religious rituals".

Imagine a toaster being studied by a species with flat reproductive organs that are stimulated by extreme heat.

...actually, do we know with any certainty if Golim don't happen to have flat reproductive organs that are stimulated by extreme heat?

[boldilocks]

That the toaster is used for food is not something they'd necessarily guess. A toaster is a very specific item, it's used just to cook slices of bread so to get that idea you need an analogue to slices of leavened bread. Maybe instead of bread the aliens have developed batteries that are charged by heat, so they'd think the toaster is a phone charger. Or maybe they'll be like our own archaeologists and go "no idea what practical use this weird thing might have had, so I'm gonna say it was a ceremonial item used in religious rituals".

Imagine a toaster being studied by a species with flat reproductive organs that are stimulated by extreme heat.

...actually, do we know with any certainty if Golim don't happen to have flat reproductive organs that are stimulated by extreme heat?

"...imagine a toaster being studied by humanity..."

[MBehave]

Likely my last post on this as its going in circles.

Plausible reason why humans have laser arrays and others don't?
For Humans it was a choice to develop working Laser arrays and other races couldn't at the same tech level...

According to Historians which are the most advanced active race we know about in Outsider.
"Your information processing systems are admittedly impressive for a civilization of such extremely poor technological advancement, but you do still have a few things to learn about power-off intrusion protection."

Explanation...
At the crossroads between FEL and non FEL Xray lasers, most races didn't have the processing power to make Array lasers viable. Lets assume FEL cannot be used in arrays because electromagnetic interference when too close together disallows it.
This would explain why the Loroi despite having good point defense lasers don't make them into laser arrays which would be better and they should be using them as an array rather then separate weapons on the same mount.

If you can make a FEL or non FEL Xray lasers, the FEL is actually simpler to make and more efficient.(assuming you have the EM field strength to make them short) If you have the processing power to engineer/run a non FEL Xray laser Array you get vastly increased range/damage and adaptable system.

Xray Array lasers have significant processing requirements over a basic Fel laser, thousands even millions of different systems need to work together in synch and do so at changing temperatures which effect resistance/voltage/signal speed.
Equations need to be invented and programming to execute it all together, processing thousands of lenses at once would require multiple groups of CPU(maybe thousands, one for each lens) and the CPU's would all need to take in to account each other. All of this effects processing speed and timing.
Thousands of CPUs...unless you use GPUs...

Why is GPU important?

Humans love gaming, gaming culture(profit) directly responsible for the GPU which can do mass concurrent processing, working out many types of problems thousands to millions of times faster then a CPU, concurrent processing is now used in science/engineering/military. Often times Science/Engineering/Military systems are just tweaks to the same GPU's provided to to the gaming public.

Its also important to point out CPU and GPU is the same base technology(and level), just technical design and application is vastly different.
It would be wrong to claim GPUs are more advanced then CPUs, yet they are far better for complicated equations and systems such as physics simulations.

In Outsider
The Loroi culture is not profit based, most are soldiers and not allowed to have many possessions, children go into training early on and then survival training and spend less time as children as well. Gaming seems like it would never have been a major driving force behind LOROI technology development and so the development of concurrent processing systems would not match humans at the same technology level.

Vastly superior concurrent processing at the same technological level Human Vs Loroi means Humans can do things and take paths the Loroi couldn't even if they wanted too. One of the major benefits we are seeing from GPU's is in engineering advanced systems where problems are worked out in simulations without ever having to make actual physical prototypes. Making engineering faster, cheaper, and more efficient, while allowing more complicated machines.

[Mk_C]

Likely my last post on this as its going in circles.

You and Werra don't seem like you really try to hear each other. Re-read your opponent's posts, see the exact direction of his arguments and respond in the same context that he is using. It doesn't matter how many concepts of applied technological solutions you bring to the table if the issue is not even about those half the time.

Humans love gaming, gaming culture(profit) directly responsible for the GPU which can do mass concurrent processing, working out many types of problems thousands to millions of times faster then a CPU, concurrent processing is now used in science/engineering/military. Often times Science/Engineering/Military systems are just tweaks to the same GPU's provided to to the gaming public.

Superior firepower through the miracle of profit-driven entertainment media is a glorious idea

SpoilerShow

HOWEVA-

Xray Array lasers have significant processing requirements over a basic Fel laser, thousands even millions of different systems need to work together in synch and do so at changing temperatures which effect resistance/voltage/signal speed.
Equations need to be invented and programming to execute it all together, processing thousands of lenses at once would require multiple groups of CPU(maybe thousands, one for each lens) and the CPU's would all need to take in to account each other. All of this effects processing speed and timing.
Thousands of CPUs...unless you use GPUs...

Why exactly would laser array implementation be bottlenecked by parallel computation speed and timing? What is it about array targeting and firing control that would take stupendous amounts of processing power? I know very little about these things, but it seems like target detection by chewing trough fuckoffbytes of raw sensor data would be a universal problem for any type of weapons, not just arrays; acquisition and tracking does not become exponentially more complex due to using an array as the whole array does the targeting, while individual emitters and their lenses only need to maintain good focus for the calculated target trajectory (much more likely to suffer from range determination errors and guessing said trajectory wrong, than slow computing), and there's hardly any sensible reason for why system control for an array of electron accelerators would take exponentially more delicate control involving tremendous amounts of fast computing compared to say, homologous system for a particle beam. And even if they do take banks upon banks upon banks of paralleled processing units - well, how is that one a problem? A room-sized processing farm would still be a very minor energy, waste heat and mass burden compared to even a minor fraction of an even human TL ship's issues with propellant mass, reactor heat management and power used by engines. I'd wager that computing complex gravitational interactions of multiple-bodies systems and holyshit-dimensional space-time topologies for FTL jumps and routine inertia dampening would be a much more computation-intensive task than controlling bearing, timing and energy and heat distribution of a system of electron accelerators and lenses.

[MBehave]

Werra believes science advancement is a universal constant, when I believe its dependent on the view point of the culture that is advancing it.
Its not that the laws of physics change, its the implementation and roads of investigation change based on the hardwiring of the brain and the culture doing the development/research.
He kept giving examples that I believed were wrong and when pointed out never mentioned those examples again, instead of discussing or showing why he felt they were correct.

Kinda makes it hard to reach understanding, at least thats the way I see the conversation between us having gone.

That RTX OFF/ON was very funny

Laser array has 2 different areas I can see requiring high processing speeds and concurrent processing.

The main targeting computer gets sensor information and works out the targets likely location.
It sends this information to the Laser array with orders "kill it"

The laser array has its own processing system that does the following.

1.Primary System Monitor.
All the different parts and their temps and other effects need to be constantly monitored and changes put into a constantly updating table which is then executed when the fire order is given.
EG
Capacitor 3 discharges 10 femto seconds quicker then average
Lens 5 activates 10 femoto seconds slower then average.
Lens 8 if offset by -1 degree vertical.

The table updates to make sure everything stays in synch.
Capacitor 3 to Lens 5
Lens 8 vertical offset +1
Now do this for each lens/laser/capacitor/CPU/wires and formulated into a constantly updating table and equation because the system degrades/changes each time its fired and from just temperature or even battle damage.

This kind of thing is already done for particle accelerators and is required for long term working fusion reactors.
Which as a side note, better concurrent processing power=More efficient fusion reactors + another advantage to humans over races at the same tech level.

2.Array Targeting System.
Works out the targeting information for each LENS so the beam will collimate on the target using the targeting info provided by the targeting computer and then orders fire, executing the activation of each component as listed by the Primary System Monitor table/equation.
It can't do it as a simple stack, different parts need to be activated at different times and at/or the same time.
GPU can do this for thousands of things at once, a CPU cannot.

GPU are very specifically designed to do calculations concurrently.
A modern top line GPU can run ~4500+ calculations concurrently, CPU can generally do 2 per core.

Its not quite this good in the real world because serial processing is still required for specific things which lets a CPU catch up.
But the same render(in blender)
CPU 2990x 32 core 64 threads at 3400mhz=134 seconds.
Titan X 3072 cuda cores at 1000mhz=38 seconds.
3.5* faster processing.
Even if we assume serial processing can do it, 3.5* faster response between being handed targeting information and firing can be a difference between 50ms and 175ms.
Thats a difference between a 30g burning ship moving 14.7m and 51.45m, thats ~13* larger area the ship can move, thats a significant increase.
Range wise thats the difference between being able to hit a ship at 1 light second or .775 light seconds. 22.5% reduction in range due to timing alone.

So yes, I firmly believe having better computer systems at the same level of tech as other races can give big advantages and allow taking advantage of things others cant.

Likely my last post on this as its going in circles.

You and Werra don't seem like you really try to hear each other. Re-read your opponent's posts, see the exact direction of his arguments and respond in the same context that he is using. It doesn't matter how many concepts of applied technological solutions you bring to the table if the issue is not even about those half the time.

Humans love gaming, gaming culture(profit) directly responsible for the GPU which can do mass concurrent processing, working out many types of problems thousands to millions of times faster then a CPU, concurrent processing is now used in science/engineering/military. Often times Science/Engineering/Military systems are just tweaks to the same GPU's provided to to the gaming public.

Superior firepower through the miracle of profit-driven entertainment media is a glorious idea

SpoilerShow

HOWEVA-

Xray Array lasers have significant processing requirements over a basic Fel laser, thousands even millions of different systems need to work together in synch and do so at changing temperatures which effect resistance/voltage/signal speed.
Equations need to be invented and programming to execute it all together, processing thousands of lenses at once would require multiple groups of CPU(maybe thousands, one for each lens) and the CPU's would all need to take in to account each other. All of this effects processing speed and timing.
Thousands of CPUs...unless you use GPUs...

Why exactly would laser array implementation be bottlenecked by parallel computation speed and timing? What is it about array targeting and firing control that would take stupendous amounts of processing power? I know very little about these things, but it seems like target detection by chewing trough fuckoffbytes of raw sensor data would be a universal problem for any type of weapons, not just arrays; acquisition and tracking does not become exponentially more complex due to using an array as the whole array does the targeting, while individual emitters and their lenses only need to maintain good focus for the calculated target trajectory (much more likely to suffer from range determination errors and guessing said trajectory wrong, than slow computing), and there's hardly any sensible reason for why system control for an array of electron accelerators would take exponentially more delicate control involving tremendous amounts of fast computing compared to say, homologous system for a particle beam. And even if they do take banks upon banks upon banks of paralleled processing units - well, how is that one a problem? A room-sized processing farm would still be a very minor energy, waste heat and mass burden compared to even a minor fraction of an even human TL ship's issues with propellant mass, reactor heat management and power used by engines. I'd wager that computing complex gravitational interactions of multiple-bodies systems and holyshit-dimensional space-time topologies for FTL jumps and routine inertia dampening would be a much more computation-intensive task than controlling bearing, timing and energy and heat distribution of a system of electron accelerators and lenses.

[RedDwarfIV]

We've been all up and down this tree before.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2409&p=34761#p34761

Also, the "Humans proposed this in the 1960's at TL6, but it never occurred to the aliens before and they're at TL11" is perhaps one of the dumbest tropes in science fiction.

Fun, though.

Think of the Rangora officer who went laughing mad when he realised humans were using an ORION drive to push a six-kilometer inflated asteroid battlestation through an FTL gate

[Werra]

Werra believes science advancement is a universal constant, when I believe its dependent on the view point of the culture that is advancing it.
Its not that the laws of physics change, its the implementation and roads of investigation change based on the hardwiring of the brain and the culture doing the development/research.
He kept giving examples that I believed were wrong and when pointed out never mentioned those examples again, instead of discussing or showing why he felt they were correct.

If I believe science advancement to be universal and you don't, then how do you arrive at

Vastly superior concurrent processing at the same technological level Human Vs Loroi means Humans can do things and take paths the Loroi couldn't even if they wanted too.

from

"Your information processing systems are admittedly impressive for a civilization of such extremely poor technological advancement, but you do still have a few things to learn about power-off intrusion protection."

?
A backward species being more advanced in one field than in others, doesn't mean it will still be so if it reaches tech equality with the other species. A lot of these reasons may be inherent to the field, when it runs into laws of nature. You'd have to extrapolate a rate of advancement that remains stable for every species for your claim to work.
I never claimed scientific progress to be universal. The only thing I ever said that came close is that natural laws are universal. This was and is my position that seems to have started this discussion.

[It's] unlikely that a whole culture just misses an obvious application of a technology. The longer the technology is in use, the less likely a continued oversight is.

Later I expanded that not only the Loroi must have missed the proposed trick, but also every other species in the local bubble. Which seems extremely unlikely, considering that laser weaponry has been in service for..eight centuries give or take?

As for the examples I failed to defend,

If you want a real world example how a very conservative, technologically practically frozen society can explore all options of the technology they have, take a look at Japanese guns. At the end of the Edo-period, their firearms were very sophisticated examples of the guns the Portugese brought them centuries earlier.

Matchlocks were introduced, they kept using matchlocks until they started importing at the end of the Edo period far more advanced firearms from the western world.
With the following advances Japanese failed to make.
Cartridge, revolvers, rifling in both pistol and long guns, pointed bullet over ball for increased accuracy and range, and lastly but not least repeating rifles were becoming the next major upgrade.

While the Japanese technology was still smooth bore matchlocks.

So you want to claim that the Japanese understanding of ballistics and gunpowder was more advanced then the western world and they imported those advanced firearms because they just couldn't be bothered making them?

You aren't refuting anything I've said, as this example was meant to show how a technologies application can be improved without taking the technology to the next level.

They are a violent militant stratified society that has trouble adapting and is currently losing.

In the current war the Loroi have not only developed and fielded entirely new weapons to match their opponents arms, they also took strong measures to change their economy which enabled them to keep the balance with their opponents numbers. In addition, the Loroi also shifted their doctrine as required by the catastrophies of this war, i.e. their use of light ships after they lost most heavy fleet assets in the Semoset campaign.
A violent, militant, stratified society is not inherently inflexible.

Loroi didn't develop the basis for for the Pulse cannon or the wave loom, they created them based on Historian provided Plasma weapon technology they couldn't replicate and they are both the results of that failed application.
The Loroi don't even make their blasters they use on their ships, they have whats effectively a slave race that invented them still make them.

None of what you've said concerns the Lorois ability to adapt at all. Just because they got information from someone else, doesn't mean their implementation is invalid.

If you want a conversation, try people, not strawmen. But not me, because my interest in this is toast.

[spacewhale]

Imagine the devastation human inventions like the 'Bikini' would have on the Loroi.

In this setting, humans seem like they've been pretty resourceful for a species that developed in isolation, I mean they're basically the equivalent of Sentinelese islanders who built jet planes and landed in LAX, independently inventing hyperdrive, beef stroganoff. That being said humans are boring, we know what they do, and of course they'd go out of their way to steal every bit of technological shininess they could from any greater power, and make iterative improvements.

[Mk_C]

Imagine the devastation human inventions like the 'Bikini' would have on the Loroi.

Two words: "high heels".

- See?
- Of course. [Now to the window, please.]
...
- I told you.
- Indeed. [Now back here.]
...
- Annen.
- Annen, annen. [Now to the window again.]
...
- I mean, look.
- Even better than you described it, yes. [And now back here]

[Passet Cloud, report. It's been 3 hours what are you doing over there?]
[It seems that Welcome Rain and Captain had me put on some devious kind of restrictive Humaniti footwear and now they continuously march me across the deck back and forward, Parat. Just walking in these is tiresome, but they seem positively fixated for some reason]
[Bloody males and their bloody childish games]
[If I may express my suspicion, Parat, Captain's claims of this task's diplomatic urgency might have been exaggerated. Do I carry on, Parat? My feet are starting to hurt, and there's still no end in sight]
[You think they might get upset if we cut it short now?]
[...]
[Oh, of course they will. Steel yourself while I organize the caretakers for extraction]

[Werra]

I don't think that Loroi warriors would wear footwear that hinders their physical movement. Now, the males on the other hand might enjoy feeling a bit taller.