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[DCR]

Had to make an account to comment on this chapter.

<all the things>

Welcome, and I agree! Had to acknowledge you placing most of my thoughts in an excellent form.

Nothing quite like not being able to trust any single player in the game, including yourself. Humans are famously and repeatedly called sheep, and it keeps being true - we find it very difficult to not buck authority/go with the flow in chaotic situations.

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

[Zorg56]

Historians as a whole probably know everything there is to know about TCA including all military effort plans, they went as far as including information about humans into standard issue ambasssador bucket(i doubt that it could get how to use word "porn" as a joke from Bellarmine databanks alone, even if it is possible that some of the crew possesions could actually have it in its memory).
They effortlessly spy on civilizations two tech levels ahead + it was said somewhere that their scouts searched local bubble.

[Rasayana]

<all the things>

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

What? A Jonah? Like the biblical figure?
What has been twice? Twice contacting the pocket Historian?

[dragoongfa]

Scout Corps ships like Bellarmine don't have "enlisted" crew members. The Scout Corps is more like NASA than it is like the Navy; its missions are long range deep space operations that stretch ship endurance to the limit, and so the crews must be as small as possible. Every member of the crew has at least one degree (and often multiple advanced degrees), and each must fill multiple roles; there is no room for dedicated cooks or janitors. And yes, that means there are officers cleaning the toilets and mopping the floors... much like on the current ISS. The Scout Corps will also have a variety of "civilian" positions, in administration and various engineering and support roles on the ground and in stations; these are not certified flight officers, but they are also not "enlisted" personnel.

Alex and Ellen are the newest and the most junior members of the crew; ensign second-class is the lowest flight officer rank in the Scout Corps. Alex is a pilot, and one of his duties was to stand a watch at helm on the bridge... before he was temporarily reassigned to maintenance and damage control. (Meaning when there wasn't a damage control exercise going on, which was most of the time, he was cleaning toilets or mopping floors.) Alex hasn't been directly asked what his position was, and so he hasn't lied about it, but since he now has the responsibilities of Bellarmine's commander, and as current sole member of the diplomatic mission, it would be of no benefit to volunteer information about how low his rank is.

Tempo correctly assumes that Alex as sole survivor is now the de facto senior officer of his unit, and so she hasn't inquired about Alex's rank before the incident, both because it is now irrelevant, and because she is a diplomat. But that doesn't mean she isn't paying attention to what he says.

I should point out that being 'enlisted' doesn't automatically mean being uneducated. In all armed forces of the world a lot of critical positions that are held by enlisted require skills attained through higher education; most of the engineers on warships are enlisted by default as they are there solely to cover the engineering needs of the warship. They are led by officers of course but the day to day complex engineering are done solely by them, this may seem counter intuitive but leading officers are supposed to be 'jacks of all trades' in their skills but masters of none other than commanding. Throughout one's ascension through the ranks they are required to punch certain ticket positions in order to get the necessary view points that will help them in the higher to highest ranks. For an Earthly example Fleet Admiral King had to pass through both gunnery and engineering officer positions in his early career, he took upon himself to learn all he could about these positions in order to lead them properly but that doesn't mean that he received anywhere near the level of training that a gunner or an engineer would be required to have in order to be hired or drafted for said positions.

To make a couple of long points short; if you want to cover a highly specialized position that requires years of training in order for a candidate to be considered for it then that position is for enlisted. They will stay at that position for their entire career and will be counted on to pass on their specialized knowledge to other enlisted and also be there to explain to officers the basic nuances of their specialized position.

Officers on the other hand, they are there to lead and make informed leadership decisions; their training and time is 'expensive' and finite by default and a state cannot afford to have a lot of officers be tied down to highly specialized positions.

Prestigious and highly sought after positions and assignment would of course be coveted and covered exclusively by officers, the Scout Corps ships being manned by officers is natural in its own way as the positions are by default highly coveted, limited and appear great in one's resume.

[Ithekro]

Alex's rank is of little importance at this time. He is the highest ranking human present and only known surviving officer of his ship. That is all that matters in his diplomatic relationship with the local alien species. At least until such time as another human ship arrives in the region or he is returned to contact with Earth.

The Scout Corps seem to follow the Starfleet model where it seems (on the surface) that everyone is an officer and their are few, if any enlisted personnel. (If I recall is was due to Roddenberry's dislike of the military's social divide construct between the officers and the enlisted ranks, and wanted humans to be more socially advanced than that). The Scout Corps could be more specialized than the Colonial Fleet.

[DCR]

<all the things>

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

What? A Jonah? Like the biblical figure?
What has been twice? Twice contacting the pocket Historian?

Originally from the Bible. A person on shipboard regarded as the cause of ill luck; any one whose presence is supposed or alleged to cause misfortune. Throw the Jonah overboard, and the ship-threatening storm stops. Most current culture use I can think of the term is Master and Commander The Far Side of the World. Crowe and Bettany. Jardin seems to be a magnet for getting shot at so far.

Sailors are very superstitious, and space sailors would likely go right along with that given the near-certain death that could be caused by random events.

[Krin]

Well the Historian shouldn't be occupying Alex's time, drawing attention to both of them, if it wants to remain hidden and also keep Alex "safe" for the time being.

I still have my doubts about the Historians in general. Not to necro an older thread but I have an opinion they are responsible for the Bellamarine's destruction.

If I had to guess, the ones Alex needs to be weary of are Flint and Reed, because I'm assuming they would be the ones to actually shoot Alex if ordered to do so.

[Rasayana]

<all the things>

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

What? A Jonah? Like the biblical figure?
What has been twice? Twice contacting the pocket Historian?

Originally from the Bible. A person on shipboard regarded as the cause of ill luck; any one whose presence is supposed or alleged to cause misfortune. Throw the Jonah overboard, and the ship-threatening storm stops. Most current culture use I can think of the term is Master and Commander The Far Side of the World. Crowe and Bettany. Jardin seems to be a magnet for getting shot at so far.

Sailors are very superstitious, and space sailors would likely go right along with that given the near-certain death that could be caused by random events.

Oh my god. Internet "surveillance" is just a little bit scary. Just a minute after reading your reply I got this video in my YT-feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iwea41ua0Y

I don't think that I have previously viewed this specific channel. I have made no searches for "Master and Commander", and (I think) I have never heard of it before.

[Krulle]

Do we have anyone here which actually know how to do computations in betting (without a bookmaker which always take a share)?

Lets say that I am sure that a coin is fair, with a 1:1 odds of comming up heads, while my friend is sure that the coin is not fair, with an odds 2:1 of comming up heads, then how much money should I put in if my friend is willing to bet $100?

What if there was a third friend who is sure that the odds are 1:3 of coming up heads?

I don't really know the calculations.
But, a bookmaker also considers the amount of bets being made on the one side or another.
Because he uses the looser's money to pay the winners, and still needs something left over for his own cost and lottery taxes (if he doesn't deduct them from the winners payout - depending on law).

As basic principle, betting odds don't add up to "1". Just the amount of collected money and money paid out don't fully add up (but they get close, all things considered).

There will be many more people betting on a sure winner than on an unlikely winner.
(Football, Germany vs. Northern Macedonia).
The bookmaker will at the start offer a bet like
1.25 : 1 if Germany wins (you "win" 1.25 € if you pay 1 € - in your win your initial payment is calculated)
250 : 1 if Northern Macedonia wins (payout 250€ for every 1 € you bet).
Because the bookmaker expects may 1 bet on Macedonia for every 200 bets on Germany. (payouts would be 250 for a win of macedonia, and 200*1.25=250 for a win of Germany). (Numbers don't match! not enough income! only 201 income in this case!)

Now, it may happen no-one bets on Macedonia, (or plenty more bet on Germany, instead of Macedonia) and Germany wins, then the bookmaker will make a loss. So once they find no-one (or ot enough) bets on Macedonia, they will amend the bets, to be (e.g.)
1.001:1 for Germany
490:1 for Macedonia.

If now the people start betting, the betting guys expect to collect 500 and for on average 1 betting for Macedonia (payout 490), and 499 betting on Germany (payout 499.499).

The betting odds are therefore amended by the expected relation of number of bets on "Germany" vs "Macedonia".

So, in Germany you'd likely find more people betting on average on Germany than in Britain, and again more Macedonia bets in Macedonia.
You'd need to shift the numbers again, according to which country you're in.
Or which part of the city.

[asaenvolk]

I still have my doubts about the Historians in general. Not to necro an older thread but I have an opinion they are responsible for the Bellamarine's destruction.

If I had to guess, the ones Alex needs to be weary of are Flint and Reed, because I'm assuming they would be the ones to actually shoot Alex if ordered to do so.

Yes, I suspect the Historians too

As for who Alex should fear, your likely correct, but that sucks, I am starting to like Reed.

[Revv]

Alex is not being given much, if any level of respect by the Historian construct; I should hope he is slower to divulge anything of importance to it than he has been to the Loroi, even if its message of being cautious of the Loroi is on solid footing.

Sound advice... though it's worth pointing out that the construct hasn't asked him any questions.

That is a very good point. Now I'm curious if the reason for that is the construct hasn't had any real opportunity to gather the information it wants yet, or if it's as others have suggested and that it doesn't need to. Looking forward to finding that one out. My instinct is telling me it's the former, but who knows?

Had to make an account to comment on this chapter.

<all the things>

Welcome, and I agree! Had to acknowledge you placing most of my thoughts in an excellent form.

Nothing quite like not being able to trust any single player in the game, including yourself. Humans are famously and repeatedly called sheep, and it keeps being true - we find it very difficult to not buck authority/go with the flow in chaotic situations.

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

Glad to be of service. For the record, your <all the things> contraction killed me, had a good laugh at it.

Funnily enough, a friend had me watch Master and Commander for the first time recently. Great movie, and an interesting question. Alex could be a bad luck charm, but depending on how their incognito-mode plan goes, an argument could be made that he's something of a rabbit's foot even if disaster follows him.

[DCR]

Glad to be of service. For the record, your <all the things> contraction killed me, had a good laugh at it.

Funnily enough, a friend had me watch Master and Commander for the first time recently. Great movie, and an interesting question. Alex could be a bad luck charm, but depending on how their incognito-mode plan goes, an argument could be made that he's something of a rabbit's foot even if disaster follows him.

Very true, didn't consider he could actually be lucky seeing as he's survived both attacks.

Oh my god. Internet "surveillance" is just a little bit scary. Just a minute after reading your reply I got this video in my YT-feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iwea41ua0Y

I don't think that I have previously viewed this specific channel. I have made no searches for "Master and Commander", and (I think) I have never heard of it before.

Yeah, that's unsettling. Using YT app? Otherwise my guess is Facebook or Amazon app.

[kiwi]

Historian software design committee meeting:
"If we have to hijack a primitive computing device that lacks the processing and memory abilities to fully host one of our personality constructs, what corners could we cut?"
"Well, the two heaviest components are the political information database and the sass module, so it's likely one of the two would have to be sacrificed."
"Okay, ditch the database. The sass module is critical!"

A more charitable interpretation:
“We tried to remove the sass module, but the little neural net those humans built - bless its little cotton socks - thought it was a SAAS module and refused to work again if we removed it.”

SAAS = Software As A Service = pay for software by the month = venture capital bait.

[Rasayana]

<all the things Revv post n reply>

Oh my god. Internet "surveillance" is just a little bit scary. Just a minute after reading your reply I got this video in my YT-feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iwea41ua0Y

I don't think that I have previously viewed this specific channel. I have made no searches for "Master and Commander", and (I think) I have never heard of it before.

Yeah, that's unsettling. Using YT app? Otherwise my guess is Facebook or Amazon app.

As with many problems I have, this one I figured out just a little while after displaying my ignorance. I thought a little bit more about it, and realized that I did make a quick google for "Jonah". So the spooky internet "surveillance" does not have to be as spooky as I implied.

[Rasayana]

Historian software design committee meeting:
"If we have to hijack a primitive computing device that lacks the processing and memory abilities to fully host one of our personality constructs, what corners could we cut?"
"Well, the two heaviest components are the political information database and the sass module, so it's likely one of the two would have to be sacrificed."
"Okay, ditch the database. The sass module is critical!"

The more I think about the sass module the more I like it.

I previously pondered if the Historian have an actual sense of humor. The most apt answer, that someone stated, to that question was that: if the Historian does not have an actual sense of humor, it is still imitating humor so well that it doesn't make any difference.

The sass module could actually be critically important for the Historians communication with, and understanding of, other organisms.

For the greater part of my life, I have sworn by a general description of humor that goes something like this:

1) The function of humor is to create or enforce social cohesion and group identity.
2) Humor do this by underlining common understanding and sensibilities; that is, humor always try to communicating something which is to be understood as "true" (sometimes by stating something which is obviously false).

When we in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy read that "the spaceship hovered in the air just like a brick does not", a lot of people will find it funny. But why is it funny? Well... the statement (if there was was a spaceship hovering in the air) is true. There typically are no hovering bricks. It is actually so obvious that it's pointless to point it out. Then of course it is the spaceship part. Outside of fiction, there are typically no spaceships hovering in the sky. Also, the "explanation" does not actually explain anything. The whole joke rely on some common assumptions which people have about the functioning about the universe, and how phenomena should be properly explained in an ineligible manner. The joke tell us that we should suspend disbelief, trust our lying eyes, and accept that there are some things that the main character can't explain. The "funny" part is that we do have a common understanding about the structure of the world, which we share with the books protagonist and with other readers.

Jokes can be quite tangled up thought processes. Without the sass module, the Historian may experience severe difficulties in understanding and communicating with different creatures.

[Arioch]

I previously pondered if the Historian have an actual sense of humor. The most apt answer, that someone stated, to that question was that: if the Historian does not have an actual sense of humor, it is still imitating humor so well that it doesn't make any difference.

The sass module could actually be critically important for the Historians communication with, and understanding of, other organisms.

Is anything about an AI "real?" A philosophical question.

If you were an intelligence that picked up English by reading through everything in a ship's databanks, rather than being "taught" was is and is not proper English, I think you'd pick up at lot of idiom and even humor just as part of the language. I think a learning algorithm would just assume it was an important part of communication... which I agree it is.

Only tangentially related: there was a discussion about Talon's foul mouth and how profanity was related to the military, and I ran across a quote that I found both enlightening and humorous:

"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can't run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn't fight its way out of a piss-soaked paper bag. … As for the types of comments I make, sometimes I just, By God, get carried away with my own eloquence." - George S. Patton

[Rasayana]

<All the things>

lol... Patton. ^_^ ♥

[Rasayana]

<Some things>

If you were an intelligence that picked up English by reading through everything in a ship's databanks, rather than being "taught" was is and is not proper English, I think you'd pick up at lot of idiom and even humor just as part of the language. I think a learning algorithm would just assume it was an important part of communication... which I agree it is.

<Other things>

Humor is certainly expressed through language, but I imagine that an AI would have to be quite sophisticated to be able to figure out every twist and turn.

Take for example Talon and Spirals comments on Perrein food:
https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider176.html

Talon: "Inedible more like."
Spiral: "Foul! Sure toxic."

Taken out of context, an AI which knows nothing about the Loroi, the subject matter of Perrein cuisine, or fundamentals on humor, could have no chance of picking up the supple meanings of what they are saying.

To what degree are Talon and Spiral being sincere, and to what extent are they not? A caricaturist literally minded person, like TBBT's Sheldon Cooper, would interpret their statements as unveiled assessments of the food. Maybe they are correct, and the food would be inedible and toxic for them, or alternatively they are suffering from misinformation regarding the food.

The laughter serves as a giveaway that they are actually trying to be humorous, but to what degree are they stating their actual assessment of the food?

Should Tempo interpret the remarks as insulting? Are the comments breaking decorum, or challenging the social structure?

In what way do Talon and Spiral think that these comments are informative for Alex? It's mind boggling; just like Beryls remark that "If you are uncertain of what to say, what is the purpose of continuing speech?"

[Dan Wyatt]

Oh my god. Internet "surveillance" is just a little bit scary. Just a minute after reading your reply I got this video in my YT-feed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Iwea41ua0Y

I don't think that I have previously viewed this specific channel. I have made no searches for "Master and Commander", and (I think) I have never heard of it before.

Just don't use YT apps and don't connect YT account to your personal/official accounts.
Use peertube, skytube, Invidious, Bitchute etc. with throwable accs.

[grixit]

<all the things>

Speaking of chaotic situations, is Jardin a Jonah? Only been twice so far, but that's a lot of getting shot at.

What? A Jonah? Like the biblical figure?
What has been twice? Twice contacting the pocket Historian?

Originally from the Bible. A person on shipboard regarded as the cause of ill luck; any one whose presence is supposed or alleged to cause misfortune. Throw the Jonah overboard, and the ship-threatening storm stops. Most current culture use I can think of the term is Master and Commander The Far Side of the World. Crowe and Bettany. Jardin seems to be a magnet for getting shot at so far.

Sailors are very superstitious, and space sailors would likely go right along with that given the near-certain death that could be caused by random events.

A passage from "Captains Courageous" by Rudyard Kipling:

"Don't let's hev another 'thout somethin' between," said Dan; and the accordion struck up a rattling, catchy tune that ended:

"It's six an' twenty Sundays sence las' we saw the land,
With fifteen hunder quintal,
An' fifteen hunder quintal,
'Teen hunder toppin' quintal,
'Twix' old 'Queereau an' Grand!"

"Hold on!" roared Tom Platt. "D'ye want to nail the trip, Dan? That's Jonah sure, 'less you sing it after all our salt's wet."

"No, 'tain't, is it, Dad? Not unless you sing the very las' verse. You can't learn me anything on Jonahs!"

"What's that?" said Harvey. "What's a Jonah?"

"A Jonah's anything that spoils the luck. Sometimes it's a man—sometimes it's a boy—or a bucket. I've known a splittin'-knife Jonah two trips till we was on to her," said Tom Platt. "There's all sorts o' Jonahs. Jim Bourke was one till he was drowned on Georges. I'd never ship with Jim Bourke, not if I was starvin'. There wuz a green dory on the Ezra Flood. Thet was a Jonah, too, the worst sort o' Jonah. Drowned four men, she did, an' used to shine fiery O, nights in the nest."

"And you believe that?" said Harvey, remembering what Tom Platt had said about candles and models. "Haven't we all got to take what's served?"

A mutter of dissent ran round the bunks. "Outboard, yes; inboard, things can happen," said Disko. "Don't you go makin' a mock of Jonahs, young feller."

"Well, Harve ain't no Jonah. Day after we catched him," Dan cut in, "we had a toppin' good catch."